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Author Topic: Illinois dad and Moving out  (Read 9342 times)

Davy

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Re: Illinois dad and Moving out
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2009, 11:51:08 AM »
sladen,
 
 
Your femine side and bias for women is showing.  So now you're saying your book learned counseling experience overrides many many others that lived in reality as they stood in court rooms virtually with their hands tied behind their back and forced to observe government practices that would certainly lead to the ruination of their children.
 
There were many times I saw the pain in my children eyes with an absent mother but the pain was as great as with an absent father.  What will the lives of these children look like 5 , 10, 15 or 20 years from now if the father or mother leaves ???.   
 
This father and mother have been in counseling with an outcome for the father to be separated from his children thus starting the engine of the status quo which will likely get revved-up.  He will be the SOB no matter what. 
 
It may be unspoken but what is being said by just about everyone (except you) is to take the lead, stay at home, and work things out.  If SHE HAS TO to have a break it should be her that leaves.  So be it.  She probably should not have had children in the first place. 
 
 


shaden3

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Re: Illinois dad and Moving out
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2009, 12:25:02 PM »

sladen,


Your femine side and bias for women is showing.  So now you're saying your book learned counseling experience overrides many many others that lived in reality as they stood in court rooms virtually with their hands tied behind their back and forced to observe government practices that would certainly lead to the ruination of their children.

There were many times I saw the pain in my children eyes with an absent mother but the pain was as great as with an absent father.  What will the lives of these children look like 5 , 10, 15 or 20 years from now if the father or mother leaves ???.   

This father and mother have been in counseling with an outcome for the father to be separated from his children thus starting the engine of the status quo which will likely get revved-up.  He will be the SOB no matter what. 

It may be unspoken but what is being said by just about everyone (except you) is to take the lead, stay at home, and work things out.  If SHE HAS TO to have a break it should be her that leaves.  So be it.  She probably should not have had children in the first place. 

 

 
Davy:
It would be a terrible breach of my professional ethics to advocate for someone based on gender, and exploring options is, in no way, equal to counseling. In truth, much of my job is specifically designed to help safe dads remain and become involved. I am glad to report that what I do is extraordinarily unbiased, balanced, honest and hard work.It is meant to heal and help, not judge and offer advice.
 
As for the sadness in your children's eyes, it is a sad thing, and I am sorry for any parents that find themselves dealing with such terrible situations. It's okay for you to offer your words when someone posts. However, Davy, I respectfully ask that you give me that same level of respect without making harmful and terribly wrongful assumptions that I have a bias for any person in any situation. Re-reading the posts may bring to light that the thread is not based in reality, and that there have been pretty expedient and gut reactions without the care necessary to read what what was truly implied vs. what was inferred.
Thou shalt not be a perpetrator. Thou shalt not be a victim. Above all, thou shalt not be a bystander.

ocean

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Re: Illinois dad and Moving out
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2009, 12:38:44 PM »
Shaden,
I am not sure what you do but some type of mediation is my best guess...
When you have parents who come to mediation, they are tying and are able to talk to each other. The poster asked us what we thought about moving out and everyone told him there view on the system. If you can stay out of the system, that is great but once you are in, it is mother driven (and I am a mother! LOL). It depends on the state you are in, the county your in, and then the judge and how they are feeling that day.

If his wife is "asking" him to move out, she may have people on her side telling her what to do. (and getting him out is GREAT for her case). Once he leaves, he becomes the NCP parent immediately. Then with no court order, it is up to how mom is feeling that day for him to see kids. When custody is being decided, they will see mom having kids and give them either sole or joint custody and the "standard" visitation..every other weekend, one day during the week. How is this fair? System is not right. It takes months and months to get a decision on custody. If he can get an agreement (even if it is just a seperation agreement) now with shared custody that would be his ONLY gurantee to keep his rights as a father, or else he is in the hands of his ex.

shaden3

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Re: Illinois dad and Moving out
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2009, 12:53:35 PM »
The original post:
 
"We have decided that I would move near by, so I can be with the boys daily.  We are also working on a schedule for them to stay with me, but haven't gotten that far."
 
We need to be careful not to make other people's pain our own, nor assign our own tragedies to other people's future.
 
 
 
Thou shalt not be a perpetrator. Thou shalt not be a victim. Above all, thou shalt not be a bystander.

Kitty C.

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Re: Illinois dad and Moving out
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2009, 01:41:46 PM »
Shaden, shaden........you just don't get it.  We're not taking this on as our own, far from it.  The primary reason for these forums is to share ideas regarding child custody issues.  Us 'oldtimers' who have been to he!! and back have a pretty good idea of what works and, more importantly, what DOESN'T work.  When someone posts a comment like the one to OP did, all we're trying to do is to head them off at the pass (so to speak) to save him and his family from the inevitable heartache and damage that can be done by that decision.
 
We're trying to give those who are just coming into this 'experience' the wisdom (or lack thereof!) of our own.  Given that different jurisdictions have different laws and standards, what works for one may not necessarily work for another........every situation can be different.  But in some instances...like in this one........the outcome can be universal......many who have come here know that and/or have experienced that.  This site is for the children and we're trying to preserve the parent/child relationship.  All we're trying to do is pass on the knowledge and experiences we've had so that others won't have to suffer what we went through.
 
And lastly......we deal with reality here..........not philosophy.........
Handle every stressful situation like a dog........if you can't play with it or eat it, pee on it and walk away.......


shaden3

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Re: Illinois dad and Moving out
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2009, 02:41:56 PM »
Here's a sampling from a portion of the posts. The worst of the personal attacks are not sampled here. It's obvious that all posters are well-intentioned and very caring about other peope's problems. I'm just asking that you take a look at the tone and meaning of these words and ask yourself if this being really helpful or you worrying about the poster and translating your fears:
 
"Be VERY careful....this counselor seems to be on mom's side if she told you to leave the house."
 
"...entire system is against your children and you."
 
"If you are wondering what the legal ramifications would be, it's best to find an attorney to guide you."
 
 "More than likely, to do so would open one up to being taken completely advantage of."
 
"... the person who wants to end the relationship should be the one to leave (if someone absolutely HAS to leave), if they want it so bad.  "
 
" If you leave you could end up seeing your kids four days a month and paying your ex out the wazoo while she lives in your house."
 
"I prefer to call it for what it is ...a bias and prejudice against the children and their father.  We don't exist to play kissy-face with government workers including attorneys."
 
" There's always hope  especially considering three adult chldren hammer her every chance they get."
 
"The best was the call on Mother's Day from SS.....to tell me he loved me, right in front of his mother!"
 
One other thought (or plea) - I know this is a forum mostly by and for parents living apart. However, please don't discount what other people can bring to the table assuming that they don't understand your dilemma and assuming they haven't experienced personal crises and horror.
It has been my experience that many fathers may have already worked your common sensual advice.

Perhaps you have read a few magazine articles or a couple of chapters by another liberal and slanted 'thought' writer so you feel comfortable regurgitating your hoity toity philosophies.  To me, you seriously cross the line painting fathers about to lose their precious children (and vise versa) "with a chip on their shoulder", "angry", etc.  Essentially, in your own little sickness, you are bringing all of the ugliness of a possible family break down on the back of fathers.

The lifes and well-being of children are at stake and you keep guessing wrong  ..................
... Go Fish.
It has been my experience that many fathers may have already worked your common sensual advice.

Perhaps you have read a few magazine articles or a couple of chapters by another liberal and slanted 'thought' writer so you feel comfortable regurgitating your hoity toity philosophies.  To me, you seriously cross the line painting fathers about to lose their precious children (and vise versa) "with a chip on their shoulder", "angry", etc.  Essentially, in your own little sickness, you are bringing all of the ugliness of a possible family break down on the back of fathers.

The lifes and well-being of children are at stake and you keep guessing wrong  ..................
... Go Fish.
It has been my experience that many fathers may have already worked your common sensual advice.

Perhaps you have read a few magazine articles or a couple of chapters by another liberal and slanted 'thought' writer so you feel comfortable regurgitating your hoity toity philosophies.  To me, you seriously cross the line painting fathers about to lose their precious children (and vise versa) "with a chip on their shoulder", "angry", etc.  Essentially, in your own little sickness, you are bringing all of the ugliness of a possible family break down on the back of fathers.

The lifes and well-being of children are at stake and you keep guessing wrong  ..................
... Go Fish.
Essentially, in your own little sickness, you are bringing all of the ugliness of a possible family break down on the back of fathers.

The lifes and well-being of children are at stake and you keep guessing wrong  ..................
... Go Fish.
It has been my experience that many fathers may have already worked your common sensual advice.

Perhaps you have read a few magazine articles or a couple of chapters by another liberal and slanted 'thought' writer so you feel comfortable regurgitating your hoity toity philosophies.  To me, you seriously cross the line painting fathers about to lose their precious children (and vise versa) "with a chip on their shoulder", "angry", etc.  Essentially, in your own little sickness, you are bringing all of the ugliness of a possible family break down on the back of fathers.

The lifes and well-being of children are at stake and you keep guessing wrong  ..................
... Go Fish.
Essentially, in your own little sickness, you are bringing all of the ugliness of a possible family break down on the back of fathers.

The lifes and well-being of children are at stake and you keep guessing wrong  ..................
... Go Fish.

 
Thou shalt not be a perpetrator. Thou shalt not be a victim. Above all, thou shalt not be a bystander.

shaden3

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Re: Illinois dad and Moving out
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2009, 02:44:45 PM »
Aaagh. Obviously I stink at working these posts. Please forgive all the extra stuff at the bottom.
Thou shalt not be a perpetrator. Thou shalt not be a victim. Above all, thou shalt not be a bystander.

Davy

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Re: Illinois dad and Moving out
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2009, 03:14:27 PM »
youstinkshaden,
 
Well finally you said something I can agree with.
 
If you've gone fishing please go knowing I meant everything I posted.
 
If you post again do not even begin to post anything negative about a parent without just cause.
 

MomofTwo

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Re: Illinois dad and Moving out
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2009, 07:09:00 PM »
Davy said " It is usually best for the father to be the major influence"...Interesting, since you come on this board and act like a two year petulent child, who when faced with a difference of opinion, resorts to childish antics and name calling.  I am sure you have been a great major influence in your children's lives. (rolling eyes).  Spare me what a great Dad you are and your story. Everyone has their story and difficulties of their experiences. Your story doesn't make you or your opinion matter anymore than anyone else's trials and tribulations and doesn't give you the right to act the way you do.
 
It's a shame that the intent of this board is lost by abrasive, attacking, posters who criticize others for a difference of opinion.   
 
Shaden, some people, who have extensive knowledge and dealings with family law, applaud the advice to TRY to approach it from a non-adveserial position.  There was nothing wrong with that advice.  Not every divorce has to be contentious and not every post has to result in the childish mentality the prior poster resorted to.
 
For the original poster... leaving a property does not result in abandonment of the property, but what it does tell a judge, is that when you left (no matter if it is Mom or Dad leaving the house and children), that by that parent  leaving the children in the other parent's care, you are saying you feel that child is safe and that parent is capable of being the custodial parent.  If the divorce proceedings drag out, as many do, then when it comes time to decide actual custody,  many judges do not like to change status quo and will leave the arrangements exactly how they have been during the proceedings. So, if you move out and do not have an agreement, or one that gives you EOW, then it is highly likely that is exactly what your custody would be at the time of the final proceedings.  If you do not want that, and want to be sure from day one to be a constant in your children's lives, be sure to get your agreement in detail and  court ordered before moving out. 
 
Regarding taking the non-adveserial approach, there are a million lawyers who will keep you fighting. It doesn't help you, your ex and most important, the children to have a contentious divorce.  The ONLY ones it helps is the lawyers you have to keep paying. The more contentious, the more money.   Shaden's advice is good...there are many lawyers now who take a collborative mediation approach.  If you can both agree to that approach, it will save you time, money, and stress for all involved.
 
 
 

shaden3

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Re: Illinois dad and Moving out
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2009, 05:53:22 AM »
MomofTwo: Your balanced and thoughtful response is very helpful. We share vision of making sure people know their options and make decisions based on what they know about the legal system and about their own personal family dynamics. Pretty much, people benefit when they define their own hopes and dreams about being moms and dads while living apart.
 
I would only add that, just as we go shopping for clothing and try items on, we do the same for all the people out there who ask that we give them fees and provide professional services. "Try on" the attorneys, the mediators, the therapists, the financial experts, etc.
 
Family lawyers, by the way, tend not to choose family law for the big payoff. The work is stressful and low paying, so lots of them care about these families. Some aren't very skilled and others are jaded. Many have biases and make assumptions about gender stereotypes.
 
So shop around. Finding a conflict pro who knows what the words "transformative mediation" mean is important, too. An attorney should never act as a mediator (at the same time), and review attorneys for another attorney's/mediator's work is important.
 
However, in the end, getting the two parents who have to live with these challenging and inconvenient new schedules and lifestyles to MAKE the decisions by putting their heads together usually means longer term agreements and less conflict for the kids to witness.
 
Kids just want to love both parents without guilt. We've got to help them do that with our professional words and our personal stories.
Thou shalt not be a perpetrator. Thou shalt not be a victim. Above all, thou shalt not be a bystander.

 

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