ex changed her mind after summer plans were made?

[itsalluphillfromhere]

Looking for opinions.

I get my kids two weeks per summer. In March my ex. agreed to extend one of my weeks by 4 days along with me agreeing to give her memorial day and labor day. (this was all agreed to in e-mail) She has now changed her mind and decided to stick to the court order. I had planned to visit with Family out of state which I do every year. The problem is that my relatives already paid for plane tickets and they are non-refundable. My kids were looking forward to this trip.

THe last time something like this happened my ex. decided that the kids soccer equipment she buys them is not going to come to my house. I finally explained to her that if she did not send it she could explain to them why they were not going to play soccer on my time. she relented and sent the shoes etc.. My children did find out about this through her and I know they just didn't want to have to hear about it.

What should I do about the fact that they are not going to go on vacation?

[ocean]

Send her this by email:
ex,
As you know we agreed to alternative plans for your memorial day and my summer vacation. Plane tickets were bought according to the email agreement dated xxx. Please respond to me by email by Friday June 2nd at 1pm if you are allowing the children to come with me from xx to xx as agreed upon or I will seek court intervention for the cost to change the plane tickets.
You

Then call the airlines and see if they can credit you or change the dates ...you can even get quote of change in price and add that to email. See if that changes her mind. IF not, always stick to your court order in the future and you can give this as an example if she asks later on as to why you wont switch.

[itsalluphillfromhere]

She knows this is not part of the court order so there is nothing I can do about it. She is also not a very nice person so sending her an e-mail threatening her in any manner will just make her happy that she is getting to me.    At the moment she is very angry with me because she was fired from work and having money troubles and in her words I only pay the minimum I owe for child support.

What I want to send her is the following.

XXXX

 
"Please explain to the children that they will not be going on vacation this summer with their cousins or I will let them know why they are not going" 
 

This type of action has been the only thing that has worked in the past.  i.e. the soccer gear.  Unfortunately, this does somehow wind it's way to the children but I have had no choice.  That said, in the beginning, the boys hated me for several months.  When I finally got them to tell me why they told me all about how I was not giving mom any money.  I finally broke down and showed them copies of the checks I sent her.  Along with some e-mails between here and I dealing with the issue.  The boys and I had a long talk and everything was fine after that.

 Her go-to excuse for changing things is that the children are happy with the time that they spend with me and it's more important that they spend time with friends and that they don't really want to spend time with dad and never request more time.  Which does not align with what my kids say to me every time they leave my house which is " ahh can't we spend more time"  My oldest (12) came to me a couple of months ago and told me that he does not ask her for more time with me because he is scared that she will get mad.  My response was don't ask it's an adult issue.

All that said I'm sure if I send the above e-mail I will likely get her to cave because she knows the kids will be very upset with her. 

[ocean]

ok then how about:

Ex,
I booked plane tickets according to the dates we agreed to. You can explain to the children why they will not be going on vacation with me if you do not allow them to go. I will no longer entertain any changes to the court order as you do not stick to the changes. Please let me know by Friday as I will cancel their plane reservations.
You

[itsalluphillfromhere]

That is my intent - what stinks is that the kids will now get involved but I really don't see any other option.  Other than lying to the kids and telling them something like their uncle had to work so we can't visit this year.  that said they have known about this trip for a long time and talk to their cousins all the time so the only thing that is going to do is get me caught in a lie.

[ocean]

You mentioned 12 years old and that is old enough for some truth. Do you have phone contact? text? social media? You can just text them too "hey, dad bought the airline tickets to see uncle xx back in xx, I am talking to mom to see if you can still go on those dates" or something like that?

[itsalluphillfromhere]

yes, I got them phones and talk and text with them all the time.   I'm thinking I stand the best chance of getting her to keep to her side of the bargain by telling the boys exactly what you said.  The part that sucks is that they are now going to be involved and feel her anger not to mention they will probably recognize they are being used by me to get this done.
 E-mailing her won't work.  I see them tomorrow and can also just talk to them about it.

Honestly, I think they will probably be okay with her anger because they have been looking forward to this trip all year.

[ocean]

Oh then wait until tomorrow and talk to kids, then while they are with you , you can text her that you talked to the kids about the vacation and that they want to go and it is up to you.
Also call the airlines, non-refundable sometimes you can change dates (maybe with a fee) just cant get your money back. Sometimes you can get a credit for next trip and not your money back. Depends on airlines....southwest and jetblue are good and will allow the change or credit....

[MixedBag]

Is the extra four days at the beginning or end of your normal time with the kids?

If it's at the end, I'd simply continue with your plans and say "you agreed to this and showed intent to agree by using Memorial Day weekend" 

And from here on out, never agree to a change until YOU get the time first and then she can have the time she wants afterwards.....because she can't be trusted.

[tigger]

She knows this is not part of the court order so there is nothing I can do about it.

Check again.  There may be a line in the orders that says something like "and other times as mutually agreed to by the parties".  If so, then you're covered because it is part of the court order as you have emails stating the agreement.  Did she take Memorial Day?  If so, then she is bound by the agreement. 

As much as you would like to keep the kids out of it, they are a part of it and will be more and more as they get older and their schedules get more complicated.

[MixedBag]

I kinda agree with this.

As the kids get older, their needs change, and the parents need to be more flexible.

SO....you two were trying to co-parent and cooperate....and in good faith, you came to a mutual agreement to change the terms of parenting time this one time.

Courts like parents who cooperate.....

And that's why I think you have a leg to stand on no matter what.

When the whole situation becomes filled with tension -- and one parent becomes a PITA - like a custodial parent who interferes, denies time, plays the mind games, then that's a different story.  But again, now you know.  And next time she asks to switch time, make sure the kids get their time with their dad first....

Be cooperative, but protective at the same time.

[itsalluphillfromhere]

I ended up taking Ocean's advice.  I told my kids that I had to cancel the vacation unless mom kept her promise and was sure to explain to them that mom must have other plans that conflicted and it was unfortunate.   This was last Thursday when I had them.  Kids have big ears and figure it out pretty quickly.  My older two responded that she did not have plans and that she was mad at me and overheard her telling her friends what an asshole I am.  I can confirm that taking the high road on this stuff is the right way to go because my 11 years old then said "Dad how come you never say anything bad about mom, she says bad stuff about you all the time"

Thursday evening I get an email from my ex telling me what a horrible person I am because I manipulated the kids and told them that she canceled the vacation and that she never said she was going to.  I then saw the boys at sports practice a little later and they explained that they made a stink about it.  Needless to say, they were very happy that they were still able to go.

Mixed bag - I agree that as the kids get older their needs change that said the boys still want to spend time with their dad.   Last year my oldest came to me and told me that my ex yells at him and sends him to his room if he asks for more time with me.  I told him not to ask anymore and that it was an adult issue, unfortunately,  now my ex. makes a point of telling me every chance she gets that the kids don't ask for more time because they want to spend time with friends.  And the only one that wants more time is me and it's selfish.   So when I saw them this weekend I told them I would like to spend more time with them and was sure to state clearly that If they did not want to spend more time it was fine and emphasized that what was most important was for them to be happy.  The two older ones came out and said they are going to ask for more time because they really want it and they don't care if they get yelled at.  Low and behold when I spoke with them last night they said they got yelled at for asking.    Any thoughts on how to deal with this problem?

[ocean]

Good, that is done.
Like the others say, ask for switches only when you get the time first.
As for extra, add on after kids are there, have kids call mom in summer and ask to stay an extra night. See what happens. I would not get them in the middle of that one though. Tell kids , you can ask mom if you can stay later or extra night once with you. Also say that when they reach 13-15 years old if they still want more time, that you can go back and ask a judge for more time. You can file yourself in family court for  a modification of visitation. It is easier to get when kids are older. If you can get them to/from school would help. Extend weekends to bring them to school on Monday. Look at school calendar and see if you are splitting all school holidays (so many extra holidays and days off in public schools). Go to their schools and see if you can volunteer for the PTA for book fairs, field day, assemblies. etc. You are allowed at all school events and then can text kids and say "hey do you want to go to dinner after your soccer game? Ask mom and I will take all of you and drop you off". If you go to court she will play hard ball with kids and promise them the moon if they say they want to stay the same schedule so see what happens in the next year or two.

Ignore all ex negative comments, if she doesn't ask for anything then no response is needed and we have learned that no is an acceptable answer. Do everything by text or email with her so you have proof for court and for your own kids/records.

I would be tempted to answer her with proof when you have it but some take the high road. LOL
"Ex. thank you for letting the kids come on vacation as we discussed back in XX, as you know you did text/email me that the kids were no longer allowed to come and I relayed the message to them. Glad you had a change of heart as the kids need both their parents/families in their lives" ha ha ok...take the high road.....

[MixedBag]

Thanks the update!!  Hope things keep going in the right direction -- and that your kids are seeing the truth.  THAT's always a really good sign that you have  great relationship with them.

I would hear words like that too....

[itsalluphillfromhere]

And so the saga continues:

Leading up to the below text between myself and my 12 year old are several e-mails between my Ex. and I.  I discussed the first one on child support forum. http://deltabravo.net/forum/index.php?topic=43576.0  As a follow up to her desire to have me overpay for camp she then e-mailed me and wanted me to take the kids every weekday in the summer and give her weekends so they would not have to go to camp at all.  I explained that I was happy to take them but not willing to give up my weekends.  She told me my priorities were screwed up and that she would not make that agreement.    She then tried to tell me that because I would not agree that she assumed I did not want them at all.  Obviously, I explained how assumptions work. 

Well on to this weekend.  I took earlier advice and had my 7 year old ask her if they could stay this weekend until Monday morning.  She told him no then decided to text my 12 year old and tell him it was okay for them to stay.

on to today at 3:30pm and the following text string between my 12 you old son (S) and I (M)

(S) Call me asap
I call him and he explains that the weeks his brothers are going to day camp mom wants him to stay with me.  I ask him for clarification since his brothers are going to day camp for 3 weeks.    He hangs up and the following text string ensues.
(S) She wants me to stay for every week In the summer
(M) Stay with me?
(S)Yea
(S)If I want to
(S) I guess it's flexible
(M) What do your brothers think about that
(S) Doesn't apply to them
(M) And you won't see them?  What do you think about that?
(S) Ehh
(S)I can switch between houses
(M)So it's not all or nothing?  I think that's what she means No
(S) I'm aloud to switch between houses
(M)Also I have work travel planned on some of the weeks I'm not with you
(S)Ok
(S)Well the schedule is flexible
(M) I think it's best to have mom email me to work it out so there is no confusion
You know it's been a little challenging for her and I to come to an agreement I would love to have you and brothers here more but I can't change plans every couple of days
(S) Ok
(M) Plus it's not good for you to have to be the middle man
(S) Ok
(M)I am very excited about the possibility
(S)Ok
(S)She won't email
(M)That's unfortunate and may make planning things difficult and even impossible
(S) Ok
(S)TTYL
(M)Yes for sure love you and we will work it out

All that keeps running through my head is WT@ - she is going off the deep end - my 12 year old is more mature than his mother

Any suggestions?

[ocean]

Email.
Ex,
XX has text me about having him stay with me while xx is at camp and I told him I would love to take them more but that you should email me the dates. The kids should be able to have some time with each other too this summer. Please email the exact dates  you were thinking so I can see if I can adjust my schedule here.
You

[itsalluphillfromhere]

two challenges with that.
1.  I can't reference that I had a text exchange with my son.  She will go off the deep end,  get very upset with him and give him the cold shoulder for at a minimum 2 months.
2.  She told him she refuses to e-mail me.

in one of the last exchanges, she said she was not going to send them to camp.  I'm still waiting on an e-mail back from her confirming that she is sending them to camp so I can pay my share.  sent that one to her this morning and have still not received a response.  So I don't feel like piling on anything more at the moment.

[MixedBag]

She sounds manipulative and like a real winner -- chicken dinner! -- you really do have a handle on this whether you realize it or not.

I think your responses to your son show this....

Have some faith in your gut responses which are focused on the children and what's right for everyone.

[ocean]

She may not answer your emails but she is reading and sending you bills. If she does not respond to you, then play a little hard ball. Don't answer about bills....Also , call those camps and see if she pulled them for a refund!
Sounds like she responds to what the kids want, so you got the vacation straightened out, so on to the next "battle". Pick those battles. Keep asking for and extra day here and there through kids once with you. If she wants you to watch kids more during summer, she will contact you. For now, stick with the court schedule and ignore the rest.

[itsalluphillfromhere]

Thanks for the great advice - one day at a time!

[itsalluphillfromhere]

Crazy update - So my ex. wanted to know my travel plans flights etc.  I told her it was none of her business which it is not.  She threatened to not exchange the boys.  I gave in, she still said they could not come. I had to tell the boys.  They gave her hell.  She then decided they could go to my house the next day and stay an extra two weeks.  Now I'm on vacation, extended my stay and she e-mails me telling me to meet her on the regular schedule two weeks early or she will call the police.  I say go ahead let me know which department so I can send them the e-mails where you give them to me for the extra time. No answer as suspected.  Then she is on facetime with my youngest and sees his 16-year-old cousin tickling him and accuses him of molesting him.  Thankfully my older one is in the room and tells her via text to cut the crap out.

[ocean]

Which travel plans, with the kids? Mom should get the itinerary only IF the kids will be with you. You may also want to talk to kids about limited when they call mom or how many times they answer her. They are older so can do it themselves, some people have it that kids call every other day at 7pm or whatever to limit the craziness between the two families. Also, no more face timing with mom. THat is serious what she tried to pull. Text or calls and let the kids know it is okay to let it go to voicemail and call her one time a day or text one time a day "had a great day, text you tomorrow" then ignore.

Ignore the rest, kids are with you , no reason to answer her or even deal with her. Have you phone ignore her calls , let them go to voicemail and enjoy your time with the kids.

[itsalluphillfromhere]

Now my ex is trying to put the shoe on the other foot so to speak.  Last night as I was saying goodnight to my 12-year-old he asked me if he could attend an annual summer party next Saturday during my time.  I explained to him that it would be best for his mother and I to work it out.  he then pushed a little.  I think I may have gone too far in my explanation.  I told him that we already had plans, he asked what they were, I told him, he then asked again if he could go to the party.  I asked him how he found out about the party.  He told me his mother told him.  I explained that he would not have known about the party unless his mother told him so he would not feel like he was missing anything.  I then explained to him that I would need to work it out with his mother and that it is not appropriate for her or I to tell him or his brothers about plans they may miss on weekends and reminded him that this is not something I have done nor intend to do.   Needless to say, there was a long email string between her and I with me trying to change weekends, her smugly refusing knowing the boys would be upset with me. 

my boys have long memories and for things they want to have memories of.  My fear is they will selectively choose to remember that I keep them from attending activities such as this.  This whole thing is making me very angry, saddened, and guilty at the same time.

We do have plans to go camping with some of their friends and she is trying to manipulate time that I spend with the boys.  Make them upset at me and exercise control.

Any and all advice is much appreciated.

[MixedBag]

That is a very good game and I'm glad you recognize it.  It's also one of those things mentioned in Divorce Poison...  if it weren't for that book, I think I would have gone INSANE with all the stupid games my EX played like that too.

Can you truly not make it happen?  It's hard to say "do this" or "do that" -- not knowing the logistical details --

When I had situations like that -- geography was how I made my decisions.

Many times once our son was here, he would forget about what he was missing at Dad's who had primary residential custody.  Out of signt out of mind kicked in easily.

Sometimes a vague answer to the EX is a way to calm them down -- "Thanks for letting me know about the party and we shall see if we can fit that into the weekend for our son." -- that's not confirming, that's checking to see if you can fit it in.   Since it's your child's weekend with you immediately, you can't switch to make sure you get makeup time....since Mom likes to play games....  And you can't fault the child totally for wanting to go at that age and wanting to be included in activities with his peers -- particularly if it's a good activity.  Yes, you can fault MOM for telling him, but chances are he's gonna find out anyways later in school or something.

[itsalluphillfromhere]

I could make it happen however I had already planned a camping trip to go away with one of his and his brother's friends and their family.  The campsite is a 2-hour drive so geographically there is no way I could make this work without an extra 4 hours ride.   I would have to cancel that trip in order to drop the boys off with their mother for 4 hours.  She refuses to exchange weekends.  I'm hoping they will forget but this topic seems to be one that they hold onto.  BTW there was absolutely no way he was going to find out about this one because he does not hang out with these friends unless there is a party which only happens once or twice a year.


The problem in this case with a vague answer is that my ex-choose to tell my boys about the party and have them ask me instead of coming to me first.  I know my boys are upset about missing the party because they did not answer my call last night to say goodnight.

All that said I do think they will understand more once we meet up with their friends and I explain that the trip would have to have been canceled. 

[MixedBag]

I was going to suggest that you stay for the party -- instead of dropping them off with their mom.....it's your time with the boys, so ok, they wanna go, so you take them.

So....about 3 hours before the party -- you ask "Guys do you wanna go or do you wanna ABC?"  And hopefully they will say ABC....and then you don't show. 

Tell her you'll be bringing them if they wanna go and what's the address?  Then later the answer becomes "They didn't wanna go, sorry"....

OR she backs off because you're gonna bring them.

[itsalluphillfromhere]

that won't work as she has made sure that they will feel uncomfortable because I'm bringing them.  I'm just going to explain to them that plans were made and in the future, I am happy to switch time with mom she just needs to do it in a time frame that I can accommodate her.  Furthermore, I will be canceling an entire weekend with friends for a few hours. 

She sent me another email last night saying my 12-year-old was asking to go a few more times.  That said he did not bring it up with me when I called him to say good night yesterday.

[MixedBag]

Good luck!  My EX too tried to do that....and at the end, I won them over and they wondered WTH because they didn't like the new "wife" he basically traded me in for.  I kept saying OH well, there's nothing I can do or want to do, I'm moving on and I'm ok.  I too traded for a new husband, and the difference was that folks liked him....(but over time he changed....and so he got fired by me as well). 

Maybe that's something that needs to be worked on.  If the kids go to a public event, both parents should be there and feel comfortable being there.  My MD's husband has an EX....and its really wonderful how they all get along and I even get along with her.  Now that doesn't mean I don't like some of her quirks which is why there was a divorce, but the daughter is put first.....

I wish EX#2 of mine would figure that out.  EX#1 has....and we tolerate each other's presence and can have short conversations and important conversations, but it took him YEARS not to be an outright butthole to me in their presence.  The kids got it more than you know as to where the fault was,

And that was my point in sharing this....the kids do get it many times.

[itsalluphillfromhere]

all is well that ends well!  My 12 year old explained to me this evening that he understood that his mom was playing games and did not appreciate it and it was not appropriate for her to act that way.  At this point, my boys have her number. The more games she plays and the more pain she causes is eventually going to cause a  problem for her relationship with them.  It's too bad but no matter what I say her sole focus is to hurt me.  These last couple of episodes (the molestation accusations, not signing them up for soccer, and a few others have opened my boy's eyes even more) 

I used to feel like I was doing the wrong thing by showing them many of the e-mail exchanges between her and me to prove to them that I did not say or do what they came to believe from her.  Now I am so happy I have.  My relationship with them is much stronger because they know for a fact that I don't lie to them. I don't try to hurt them, and I try my best to work it out with their mom without involving them.

I'm so happy and relieved that I seem to getting past the point of her being able to alienate them from me which she so much wanted to do.

This episode just cemented it for me!

[MixedBag]

yeah!