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Author Topic: children refusing to visit  (Read 7990 times)

lawless

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children refusing to visit
« on: Jan 30, 2006, 01:11:50 PM »
2 teenage girls refusing to visit Dad.  Wondering if anyone has been to court to enforce visitation when it is the children who are refusing.  The BM says that she "encourages" them to go but will not force them.

Lawless


angel

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RE: children's refusal to visit
« Reply #1 on: Jan 31, 2006, 08:31:12 AM »
Wow, that's a tough situation. I have no legal advice, but do have a personal opinion.  

First of all, I can certainly understand the father's desire to see his children. It would be my advice as a mother (who certainly feels that it's in the best interest of the children to have a father in their life and to know that he loves his child/ren) for him to stop (at this time) trying to force/enforce actual parental time.  

The daughters are going to the extremes to make sure they do NOT have contact with dad, so he'll just end up making them hate him worse by trying to force them at this point. If I were him, I wouldn't want to risk further alienation.

I think at this point that Dad would get better results if he let his daughters know (through a letter, email, or phone call) that he can understand how the divorce was hard on them, and that he would love to see them, but he's not going to force them into doing what they don't want to do, and that he still loves them just as much as he ever did, and that whether they ever respond in return is up to them, but to please at least allow him to do things like send birthday cards/gifts, letters, email, etc.

If he continues to do this while all the while not putting down his ex in anyway, he has a better chance of winning them over than the way it's going now.

There's an old saying -- "You can lead a horse to water, but you CAN not make him drink", and I think that statement certainly fits this case, as unfortunate as that may be.  Also remember, that he'll draw more flies with honey than he will with vinegar, which is what would be required right now toward his ex wife to MAKE the visitations happen.

I have a bit of personal knowlege about how a child can have feelings of acrimony toward a father, (it happened with my son toward his dad because he felt his Dad had hurt me) and I know how hatred and rebelliousness can become worse over time if not handled with love and understanding, and in this situation, it may just be Dad who's going to have to give up what he most desires for the best interest of his children at the moment.  

I wish all of you the best of luck, and certainly hope that one day there's a breakthrough.   Please remember these statements are only my personal opinion, and I'm sure there are many who would disagree with me.  

P.S. To clarify my statement on having a bit of personal experience with this-- what may sound kind of odd, is that it was me who kept trying to make my ex and my son realize that they needed each other, as NEITHer of them showed any interest in seeing each other for two years. Happily in my son's case, it has all worked out, they see each other regularly now, and son and father do it gladly, whereas before, neither would have. So sometimes "time" itself can have healing properties.



lawless

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RE: children's refusal to visit
« Reply #2 on: Jan 31, 2006, 03:45:33 PM »
Angel,  Thank you for your response but it is truly contrary to all documented literature regarding this issue.  We have done extensive reading and it is clear that teenagers should not be making these decisions and that they need a father in their lives (especially teenage girls).  The alienation has already happened, it can't get worse.  I was hoping for a response from a professional who specializes in parental alienation.

I am also a mother of 2 teenagers and I disagree with allowing them to make adult decisions.  When parents are together, we don't allow our teenagers to refuse to see or talk to one of the parents...Why would we allow this in a divorce situation?  As I said in my letter, we have already seen the results of one of the girls who is acting out in a stereotypical way.  Her safety is at stake and we will not give up on her.

The girls get constant reminders about how much their Dad loves them.  Please understand that we are not trying to force visitation just because the Dad wants it but because this is what is best for the girls.

Also, we have tried every avenue with the Mom including "honey" as you put it.  If it were only so simple as being nice to her and the girls, we certainly would not be in this position!

Thanks again but I don't agree at all.  I am sorry that your ex husband wasted those precious years.
Lawless

smofJ

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RE: children's refusal to visit
« Reply #3 on: Feb 01, 2006, 02:12:37 PM »
As a product of a divorced family, I would say I would lean toward Angel's advice.  I understand that you and your husband care about the safety of the girls.  But I'm afraid if you keep pushing you will lose them forever.  During the teenage years it is natural for a female to pull away from her father and want to be with friends more.  I think they may be using the divorce as an excuse.

My sister and I visited my father every weekend for quite sometime. Then my sister hit her teen years and was the first to rebel against dad and dad's more strict rules.  She stopped visiting when she was about 17.   I started to rebel at around 16. It wasn't so much that I didn't want to see my dad, because I spent little time with my mom either.  I just wanted to be with my friends.  Dad and I got in a big fight about him trying to make me stay there.  I left that night and didn't go back for anymore visitations. He started calling a couple of months after the fight and we put things behind us. I didn't have visitation with him anymore, But we would still go out to eat pizza and have birthday and Christmas's together.

I am now 28,  I have an awesome relationship with my dad.  We live in the same town and my son and I see him at least twice a week. And honestly I am probably more close to him than I am my mom.
I suggest you stop trying to force them to visit.  They my just be using the divorce for an excuse.  Call them on you weekend and ask them out for pizza or something like that.  Take them home afterwards if they want.  You may miss them now, but I'm sure you will reap the benefits later.

lawless

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RE: children's refusal to visit
« Reply #4 on: Feb 01, 2006, 03:05:35 PM »
I am removing this post.  The advice I have received is contrary to the premise of this site.  I am very disappointed by the continued prejudice against fathers.  If I had said that this was an alienated mother, the responses would be different.  We don't allow children to refuse to see or interact with one parent in a traditional family situation.  Why do we allow them to do this in a divorce situation?  Isn't this just letting the children run the show?  The research is clear that teenage daughters need a father's influence in their lives.  Mothers should be making sure that their children have this.  We can't just allow children to make these decisions because they want to be with their friends.   And in this case, their anger about the divorce is certainly not a front for more time with friends.  It is a real battle that the girls are fighting on behalf of their mother.  I am sorry that you missed out on 12 years with your father.  I am sure this influenced your life a great deal.  I believe that your mother was wrong to allow this to happen.  You probably even knew this at the time.

Again, we are not trying to enforce visitation because we "miss" the children.  This is what is best for them.  I am not interested in hearing about certain situations that worked out after 12 years.  And, OF COURSE, we are doing all of the things you have said.  These children are now at the point where there is NO CONTACT.  

Thanks anyway....


lawless

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RE: children's refusal to visit
« Reply #5 on: Feb 01, 2006, 03:16:30 PM »
This is the SPARC FAQ #22 My daughter has stated repeatedly that she does not want visitation with the non-custodial parent. Does she have this right?  
No, she doesn't have the right not to visit. The reason for this is that it isn't her decision to make- the court has ruled that visitation shall take place. The only person that can legally refuse visitation is the non-custodial parent. You should not be letting your daughter get involved in this; it's improper to allow a minor child to make these kinds of decisions.  

Ref

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Whoa nelly!
« Reply #6 on: Feb 01, 2006, 06:32:10 PM »
 First of all, the arguement that this site is prejudice against fathers is REDICULOUS! If you look at any critisism out there on this site is the direct opposite. You really need to settle down with that.

Secondly, there are many ways to look at this problem.  There is the legal way, which you have demonstrated in the prior post. There is the morally right way, which I am sure you have researched. Finally, there is the best way in the REAL WORLD.

I don't beleive that the prior posters were doing anything but offering advice based on real life experience. It may conflict with the legal and moral way of dealing with the issues, but it is sound advice when you are dealing with the real world.

I really wish you kept your original post. I just went through what I think is a very similar problem and may be able to help. I will give you some background and you and see for yourself if it is close to what you are dealing with.

My husband sees his daughter 6 times a year. SD has been fighting visitation ever since she started wearing a training bra. She was hearing from her mom that DH doesn't respect her wishes for visitation and how terrible it is that he is making her miss her friends. BM would send letters to SD saying how horribly difficult it must be for her to be here. SD eventually got so worked up that she started to refuse to come. She threatened to run away. She begged and cried and mad a terrible fuss. DH heart was ripped apart. It is one thing to hear evil spewing from BM but to hear this from his precious little girl, it was too much.

I went online and researched. I found that legally SD had to come. That felt good. I knew I had legal support. Then I read about importance of fathers in the lives of teen daughters and other psychological texts on the topic of fathers and daughters. Still, I was able to gather more power. Then, I realized what is DH to say to SD? You have to come because I have the legal right to see you. Well, DH did and SD rebutted "Yeah, mom said that if I don't come you will throw her butt in jail". That just made him look like a prick. What else could he say to her? "According to the American Journal of Psychology you will have better chances at emotional health if you send more time with me". He didn't even try that rediculous line.

DH lost his job and had several deaths in his family and could not bear to hear SD say that she didn't want to come. He limply told her that he was not going to see her for their time together and he will miss her. She was thrilled, which hurt him more. She came to the next visitation with absolutely NO problems at all. NONE. This was the first time in a year and a half of exhausting emotional throwdowns about this that she came up willingly and happily.

He did put his foot down several times with her. He told her that he knew that it wasn't what she wanted but they would talk about it and work out a way that both of they could be ok with her schedule with him. She had a hard time coming here and was very happy to leave, but when she was here, she was a pretty freaking happy kid.

Another thing I think helps is the internet. SD has email but BM has blocked us from her account. I got around this by opening an account on Livejournal.com. I post to my own webpage every few days with updates about what is going on here. When SD is bored she always checks in and many times posts a reply. We also use Shutterfly.com and post our pictures of times together there. This helps to remind her of the good times she has with us.

Teenagers are ALWAYS bored. Having these things gives them something to do and keeps them emotionally attached.

I hope you realize that many of us have had similar experiences and MAY give you advice you will not want to hear. Please take time to digest the advice that you find offensive and see if you can use it to help you in your situation.

Best Wishes

Ref

lawless

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RE: Whoa nelly!
« Reply #7 on: Feb 01, 2006, 07:25:21 PM »
Actually, here is what I said which supports that this site is NOT biased against fathers....

"The advice I have received is contrary to the premise of this site. I am very disappointed by the continued prejudice against fathers".

The ADVICE I received was biased, not the site so "Whoa" yourself.  I want to be very clear on that point.  I appreciate that this site is DEDICATED to equal treatment for mothers and fathers but some of the postings are contrary to this as they are obviously not screened.

Actually you and your husband agree with us and have done the exact same things that we have done.  The personality of the older daughter is such that we now have no contact, not by phone, e-mail, or visits (even though we continue to send love and thoughts via e-mail and phone messages) and the younger daughter has recently followed her sister's lead.  There is a different drama almost every day that is the current "reason" for our alienation.  All of them are fabricated and we are unable to defend ourselves due to the lack of contact.

I have most certainly been exposed to literally hundreds of people's "real world" opinions of this issue.   I would like to believe that in the "real world" we would try to do what is legally and morally correct.  Especially when it is also what is best for the children psychologically.   I was really looking for those who have been to court in this situation.  I would delete the post if I knew how as it seems that I have chosen the wrong "forum".....

Thanks for the input.  Your situation is very similar and it sounds like things have worked out for you quite well.  

Lawless

Brent

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RE: Whoa nelly!
« Reply #8 on: Feb 01, 2006, 07:58:31 PM »
I agree some of what you've said.

Everyone's situation is different and no one approach or solution is the "right" one for every problem or dilemma. I think some of your statements may have been taken out of context, but there is always room for interpretation.

I'd like to ask the rest of the posters to go back over what's been said by everyone involved, take a deep breath, and then see what you think.

Ref

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RE: Whoa nelly!
« Reply #9 on: Feb 02, 2006, 06:04:12 AM »
>Actually, here is what I said which supports that this site
>is NOT biased against fathers....
>
>"The advice I have received is contrary to the premise of this
>site. I am very disappointed by the continued prejudice
>against fathers".
>
>The ADVICE I received was biased, not the site so "Whoa"
>yourself.  I want to be very clear on that point.  I
>appreciate that this site is DEDICATED to equal treatment for
>mothers and fathers but some of the postings are contrary to
>this as they are obviously not screened.

I stand corrected and no this site doesn't screen opinions, just rude and offensive remarks.

>I have most certainly been exposed to literally hundreds of
>people's "real world" opinions of this issue.   I would like
>to believe that in the "real world" we would try to do what is
>legally and morally correct.  Especially when it is also what
>is best for the children psychologically.   I was really
>looking for those who have been to court in this situation.  I
>would delete the post if I knew how as it seems that I have
>chosen the wrong "forum".....

 You are right. I would be nice to beleive that we live in a world that is just and right, but we don't. Sometimes you just have to play the game as best you can with the hand you are delt.

Try Socreteaser's site for legal questions.

Good Luck
Ref

debid13065

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RE: Whoa nelly!
« Reply #10 on: Feb 02, 2006, 01:08:12 PM »
My BF is going thru the same thing....4 kids 6-15....msg from the X because she wants the kids to go to her sisters instead of with their father on his time.  Now don't get me wrong, X is uncooperative, has a contempt on denial of visitation, 30 day sentance hanging over her head, and will tell whoever listens that "It's all his fault!" She tells the children everything about the courts, she interfers with his visitations, not only her, her older children and friends and family.

"Why can't the kids make the decision weather they want to go with you or not. Now that's forcing them, that's forcing the issue on them. That's not right and not fair to them.  That's not being a father, and that's not cooperating either. talk about me cooperating oldest is gonna be upset cuz she can't go, that's not fair to her. Because of what you want, your gonna destroy them, that's not fair, they want to spend time with their aunt. the only time they can do that is on the weekend, and I'm not taking them down their at 8pm at night, after your visit, and I have to go back and get them the next day that's not fair.

Now he has tues & thurs 5-7pm and sat 10-8p never gets them at 10 it's 12.  Police station drop/pick-up, which bites into his time, X detains him with the verbal abuse and so does her daughter and no one seems to care!  This is what his kids are up against.  Not only an alienating BM but her biodaughter as well, all four of his children are under their control.

His X would rather see him, just pay support and abandon the kids.  The kids enjoy spending time with Dad, they all talk at once...they have fun, but is worth it cuz when they get home they have to deal with the spanish inquisition/interrogation from X and her daughter.  She's on the alienation campaign, read Divorce Poision it's helping but to spend  less than 2 hrs with them on tues/thurs, and defending yourself against everything that is being said by X and trying to say it without badmouthing or spreading your own poision is emotionally hard.

Sorry sore subject, back to court again for this on Monday too!


4honor

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Hoping to be helpful (Long)
« Reply #11 on: Feb 02, 2006, 06:27:45 PM »
I am the poster child for what happens to girls who have been severely PAS'd. (Single mother at 18, lost custody of my child at 25, alcohol problem for 10 years, small stint in jail, hung out with armed career criminals and dealers, etc.) And now things are very different, but it has taken a long time to come back from that.

My parents had a VERY high conflict divorce. I was 16 when they split and 17 when they divorced. My mother was an emotional wreck (go figure, 'cuz she filed for and drove the divorce.) She was (in my lay opinion) mentally disturbed. The long and the short of it was that even though I felt I was an emotionally strong and mature child for my age, I was unable to stand up to my mother's severe alienation tactics.

I behaved abomidibly toward my father who was never anything but a good father to me and my siblings. I am sure you are asking WHY did I do it?

Well, because I did not trust my father to rescue me from my mother and when all was said and done, I had to live with her, not him. He was out. He was free, and the crap my mother fed me about him did one thing... made me believe that he didn't love me enough to get me out of there. Don't get me wrong, he did nothing to promote that and never missed a CS payment or a visitation, but he was a long haul truck driver -- he was not home more often. (Pay CS for 4 of 6 kids --- other two were emancipated by then -- and see if you have the opportunity to change jobs.)

I made the conscious choice to cut off my father to make it easier to live with my mother, cause I thought if I crossed her my life would be more of a hell than it was. I picked my path knowing how awful it would be if I chose my dad and he failed to free me from her. I survived. It cost me my father for many years. It cost me my self esteem. But the alternatives were worse.

He thought we were being cared for -- not really. We physically restrained my mother from committing suicide on a monthly if not weekly basis. She did some really bizarre things, etc. He did not have the information he needed. We thought he knew, and everyone suffered my mother's actions for years. (She came across as normal to most people).

The things my father did which I found most helpful is he maintained his relationship with me, sometimes against my will. He never got more than 10 days from a phone call, card, letter etc. I put up a fuss and kicked and screamed, but we had a relationship he would not let go of. He did not try to make it more than it was, he just took a stance and did not give any ground on it. I came to depend on finding him "there" where I last left him. And he always was. He did not "make" me have a good time, but he insisted I come on visitation about 90% of the time. I secretly wanted to come, but was worried my mother would commit suicide while we were all gone... after all, she threatened to often enough.

When my mother died (ironically of cancer), I was free to pursue the relationship. He did not hold my poor behavior against me. He let me take the lead on how close we were to become. Now he nags me incessantly about my health and calls me "Sissy" like he used to when I was 6. We can even talk politics a little though I am a die hard Republican and he a die hard Democrat.

The SDs are doing what they in their juvenile minds feel is necessary to survive under the circumstances they are in. The only cure for the relationship is maturity -- and some people don't get that even with time.

Have DH draw his line in the sand and never give any ground. If you do nothing else, send a card once a week. Something light and kookie and funny that you can say "I love you" on. The frequent reminders on something tangible help. Call the answering machine and leave them messages just before school lets out -- so they are the ones getting it, not their mother. No pressure, just unconditional love with no strings attached.
A true soldier fights, not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves whats behind him...dear parents, please remember not to continue to fight because you hate your ex, but because you love your children.

debid13065

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RE: Hoping to be helpful (Long)
« Reply #12 on: Feb 03, 2006, 03:04:11 PM »
I printed this out and giving this to BF, he's going thru a major alienation campain right now.  His 12 y/o just called and said she's not going tomorrow and she's never going again.  This is the girl who Thursday night was begging him to rescue them from their mother.  Court on Monday, we'll see what happens then.  Thank you for your letter, I seriously thought this would be the breaking point for him to walk away.  Reading that, he now realizes that he has to step it up, for his kids well being.  

Kboeds

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RE: Hoping to be helpful (Long)
« Reply #13 on: Feb 05, 2006, 12:11:16 AM »
Lawless,
You said you came here for advise yet you complain about the advise you get. If you want only to hear what you already feel yourself then you should just write in a journal and read it back to yourself.

BTW I am prepared for your angry reply.

I will give the same advise that others have given.

You said if the parents were together the child wouldn't be able to ignore one of the parents. That may be true but children who want to  run away from home. Is that legal?? No.. But they do it anyway. Parents can get the law involved and bring them back but will they stay as if all is well? No they will probably run away again.

My story is this. DD decided at 14 that she wanted to go live with BF. I allowed it and in our custody papers it states that my visitation is only what DD will agree too except for Holidays. (YES) the judge signed stating that a then 15 YO could decide if she wanted to see me or not.
DD and I had very little contact with each other for the first 10 months after she moved out. We would only have visits for a few hours on the few occasions that we saw each other. I did not call DD because she obviously needed space and time to figure things out on her own.

10 months after she moved out she called and ask if she could come spend the weekend with me. (I was shocked) DD came that weekend and has come to my house EOW since then and called me EVERY day sometimes 2 or 3 times a day since then.

So not only did the judge make it LEGAL for DD to make the decision. I gave DD the time she needed to figure things out and when she came back, she came back because she wanted to, NOT because I or the courts forced her too.

When DH took his ex to court to change his visitation for out of state purposes, the judge put IN THE ORDER that DH's 16 YO son could decide whether or not he wanted to have visitation with DH. (YES) the judge signed the order stating that a 16 YO could decided on visitation.

So, take it to court.... Your DH may lose his daughters for good. He will make them more angry by trying to force them into doing something they don't want to do, and more then likely the judge will say the girls ARE old enough to decide whether or not they see there father. If your DH wants to take that chance go for it. I think that would be a big mistake!!

Good luck!

KB

lawless

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RE: Hoping to be helpful (Long)
« Reply #14 on: Feb 05, 2006, 12:15:12 PM »
Thanks. I was really looking for people who have actually taken the BM to court to see what happened. I am guessing that it doesn't happen very often as it sounds like a losing battle - or maybe winning the battle but losing the war.  

Even though I probably chose the wrong forum originally (being a newbie), the stories have been useful and I appreciate the time taken to respond.  I feel that it is important to feel comfortable disagreeing and to pose some questions and alternate opinions.  That is what "forums" are all about.

The really upsetting part is that at least one of our teenage daughters is "acting out" in a very dangerous and destructive way that is also stereotypical of a teenage girl without a father in her life. Her safety is the driving force behind our fight.  This is why we are so reluctant to allow her to continue making her own decisions. (See 4honor Feb 3)

It sounds like there are many eventual success stories. We may have to hope that the children will eventually reach out rather than trying to get their Mom to "do the right thing". I continue to believe that adult decisions are not a child's to make (see visitation FAQ #22) but we do recognize that there is only so much that we can do and the legal system is certainly disappointing in this regard. Congrats on having your daughter back in your life.

Lawless

lawless

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RE: Hoping to be helpful (Long)
« Reply #15 on: Feb 05, 2006, 12:16:19 PM »
Thanks very much for your posting.  Your story is powerful and very helpful!
Lawless

lawless

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RE: Hoping to be helpful (Long)
« Reply #16 on: Feb 05, 2006, 12:20:47 PM »
Debi,
Thanks so much for your postings.  Those phone calls are heartbreaking.  We have had so many of them, I have lost count.

Best of luck on Monday.  

Lawless

Davy

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Thanks Lawless for reposting
« Reply #17 on: Feb 05, 2006, 11:24:42 PM »
Lawless,

I did not see your original post (deleted) but would suggest that your concerns and considerations are in keeping with most posters and society as a whole.  I hope you don't dumb down into acceptance and tolerance of morally, ethically and legally corrupt social policies that endanger children.
 
Food for thought.  Upon acknowledging some of the common characteristics of growing and sever juvenile delinquency the federal office of Juvenile Justice was able to push state legislation criminalizing
(no longer just civil) custodial interference (ie visitation/possession).  
The articles section on this site contains an article documenting all
states..

In addition, a parent has an obligation to protect their children  irregardless of any court order.

Come again !!



lawless

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RE: Thanks Lawless for reposting
« Reply #18 on: Feb 06, 2006, 01:22:29 AM »
Interesting that when a child refuses to go to school, we force them to go because it is what is best for the child.  When a child refuses to go on visitation with or speak to the non-custodial parent, the resounding advice is to let them choose even though having both parents in their lives is clearly in the child's best interests.    

Thanks for the supportive words.  I will check out the articles.

L.

4honor

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I have found over the years
« Reply #19 on: Feb 06, 2006, 12:07:24 PM »
that the lasting benefit of my pain is that it helps other people about to face the same roads. Though I sometimes cry when I write my story, they are not tears for me, but for the families about to face the pain I have already waded through. It is not what I would wish on anyone, and I know "I am strong, but what about this family? Can they withstand what I did?"

So, I shed a tear or two and pray a prayer or two (each day), and send peace and healing whenever I can.

God Bless, and may God grant each family seeking information here:
   1. Wisdom beyond their experience
   2. Peace in dealing with their ex
   3. Strength of purpose
   4. Unconditional love for their children
   5. Vision to see the door "out" of the conflict
   6. A mind set on getting the children to adulthood in
       one piece physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually.
   7. And HOPE -- especially in the face of despair
A true soldier fights, not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves whats behind him...dear parents, please remember not to continue to fight because you hate your ex, but because you love your children.

wendl

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RE: Hoping to be helpful (Long)
« Reply #20 on: Feb 06, 2006, 07:45:41 PM »
In some states the courts will listen to what the children have to say at 12. So your chance to take mom back to court and try to make the kids is a 50/50.

Good luck.


**These are my opinions, they are not legal advice**

mishelle2

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RE: Hoping to be helpful (Long)
« Reply #21 on: Feb 07, 2006, 11:37:53 AM »
LAWLESS,
 

 we have same problem, however my dh daughter is on the other side of united states, mother frustrated phone contact, only allows him to talk to her every 2 weeks for 10 min. Refuses visitation unless court ordered.. so  We have all ready been to court once for this, bm says to judge, child doesnt want to go, I think child should stay home with me. Judge says, I feel sorry for you but as important as it is for you to be with your daughter it is equally important for her to see her dad, and we won our visitation, now we are going back again, since mom just cant help but frustrate visitation, attorney is sure we will win again.


just an opinion..

madinbama

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RE: children refusing to visit
« Reply #22 on: Mar 03, 2006, 02:54:58 AM »
Press the issue!  My Ex was/is an extreme example of PAS, and at one time she had my then young teenage daughters calling me every name in the book over the phone.  The EX and I live over 2000 miles apart so the relationship was long distance to begin with, and I would have never thought a parent would leave their children talk to another parent the way my EX did, and in the background encouraged it!  I was not allowed to see them from 1997 until 2000 because of the EX, and they said they didn't want to see me either.  I took her back to court, and the girls finally came to visit me in AL...they both have since moved to AL because they see that what was said about me was totally false and fabricated by their mother.  Hang in there!

backwardsbike

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RE: children refusing to visit
« Reply #23 on: Mar 05, 2006, 03:38:09 PM »
Would she "force" them to attend school if her "encouragement" failed to convince them that they wanted to go?

I have an X who makes all his whims to be about "what the children want".  He is unable to distinguish his own wants from the children's.  He doesn't realize that they are separate people.

If you have a court order for visitation and she is a "good" parent who realizes that children NEED both parents then I am sure she would "make them" come.

lawless

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RE: children refusing to visit
« Reply #24 on: Mar 06, 2006, 11:51:13 PM »
Thanks, your story certainly has a happy ending.  The alienation has taken a new turn in recent weeks and we are going to court as BM has requested a guardian ad litem so that she can completely get herself out of the situation.  BM refuses to force the girls to do anything including going to sports practices, school, etc. if they don't want to.  At this point, the girls are not taking their father's phone calls as well as refusing to see him at all.  All of this is so amazing to watch.  Their reason is because he left their Mom.....It has been 2 years.  No one, including the girls' counselors, are willing to tell them that they are hurting themselves by refusing to have their father in their lives.   The counselors tell the girls not to do anything (including speaking to their father on the phone) until they are "ready".  The girls and BM say it will be "years" before they are "ready".  We are fighting like crazy but are very doubtful that anything will change until the girls grow up.  BM says that this is all between my husband and the girls and she will have nothing to do with it.  Legal advice from Socrateaser is that we will lose in court.  No one will make the girls come on visitation.  We are bitterly disappointed in BM, the girls, the counselors.  We have absolutely no hope that a GAL will make any difference.  Sometimes it just feels like a bad dream.  Thanks for the supportive words by all.
Lawless

lawless

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RE: children refusing to visit
« Reply #25 on: Mar 06, 2006, 11:54:28 PM »
No, she doesn't "force" the children to do anything including going to school if they don't want to.  And she will not tell them they must go on visitation.  She is adamant about this.  It is their choice according to her.  Some people don't have "good" parenting skills.  She feels that she is a good parent by allowing them to make all of their own choices.

Thanks for your thoughts, Lawless

oklahoma

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RE: children refusing to visit
« Reply #26 on: Mar 07, 2006, 05:00:13 PM »
My SDs are a little younger, and have so far only once actually said themselves that they didn't want to come (in 3 1/2 years of interference by BM.)  Interesting to me how BM says SDs are old enough to decide not to come for visits, but when SDs said they want to live with Dad (just for a few months), BM says they are too young to make such decisions.

I totally empathize with your comments about the counselors.  We believe that the past 3 1/2 years could have been completely different if BM had taken SDs to a different counselor.  To read counselors' notes about SDs sessions is infuriating!  Essentially they have taught the now 11-year old SD to talk back to and/or ignore adults (i.e. what to do when adults "disrespect" you.)  13-year old SD has a rapt audience for the little lies she has been telling since age 9 (and which are growing in seriousness.)  SDs' counselors have this "save the world" attitude, without really knowing who needs to be saved from what.

My husband has received just one letter from each of his daughters (both saying not to write to them again) in the past year.  We go to court this month....  Very anxious....


MixedBag

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RE: children refusing to visit
« Reply #27 on: Mar 07, 2006, 06:51:25 PM »
how far are you geographically from the teens?

and how often does the order allow them time with their dad?

lawless

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RE: children refusing to visit
« Reply #28 on: Mar 08, 2006, 12:18:40 AM »
My husband has 8 days per month of visitation that he schedules because he travels for work.  This usually means (in theory) every other Thurs-Sun but the girls refuse to come.  Our house is less than 2 miles from the BM's house.  It is a little more complicated than it sounds because we live in a different state most of the time (where my boys are) and maintain a house in BM's city in order to have the girls for visitation.
Lawless

MixedBag

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RE: children refusing to visit
« Reply #29 on: Mar 08, 2006, 10:22:03 AM »
Well, I maintain an apartment 750 miles away from me too....so I get that part...(sorta!)

How far are you folks from your second home that's near BM?

I guess where I'm going with this is that dad should/could try to see the girls on "their" time like maybe during lunch hours at school for example?  

Or during their "extracurricular activities"?

I'm all for pursuing missed time through the court system.  An NCP has no choice in the matter and has to stop the denials before they get out of hand.

Haven't read any other the other responses (cept dh's of course).

Also a firm believer in what is written in Divorce Poison.

I'm dealing with an EX too that in his latest letter he clearly said that our son who is 13 next week can make the decisions for himself.  Fortunately, the EX ALSO felt our son needed counselling to deal with all of this and the counselor sees right through EXs motives.


lawless

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RE: children refusing to visit
« Reply #30 on: Mar 09, 2006, 12:34:27 AM »
I guess I am not being clear about the degree of PAS we are dealing with here.  The girls don't want to see, hear from, or talk to their Dad.  This is supported by Mom.  So they don't take phone calls, have hysterical fits if he shows up at any activity, and regularly send him e-mails begging him to give them "time" until they are "ready" to talk to him again.  This has been going on for coming up on 2 years.  The girls admit that their reason for this is because they don't like the divorce and most of all don't like that Dad has someone besides Mom (me).  They say that "Mom is never going to be OK and it is your fault because you left her."  Here is what my husband does for his girls:
1.  Calls them and leaves sweet messages on their cell phones daily
2.  Asks them to go out for ice cream / skiing / dinner / etc etc...anything....every time they refuse to come for visitation and in between times too
3.  Arranges family counseling sessions with them every other week which they refuse to attend (they are "not ready")
4.  Pays for weekly individual counseling for both of them
5.  Speaks to both of their counselors about every other week
6.  Spends countless hours trying to find out when and where their soccer games and other activities are as they refuse to tell him as does the Mom
There is a ton more. We have read Divorce Poison and I feel like I could have actually written it as we have been through almost everything in that book.  It has been at least helpful to know that we are not the only ones taking crazy pills!  The most amazing thing in all of this is that NO ONE will tell these girls to knock it off and that they need to have their father in their lives.  Mom says "do whatever you need to do".  Counselors say "you don't have to do anything that is too hard".   Maybe the GAL will actually help......
Thanks for your kind words of support,
Lawless

Genie

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Have been there and done that...
« Reply #31 on: Mar 11, 2006, 09:49:10 PM »
and it did not good.  My ex's daughter was refusing to visit b/c of social life and BMs encouragement. Took her to court. Agreed to let daughter come one time a month but son had to come every other weekend like ordered.  Well, got out of court and it did no good. BM still refused visitation and continued to tell daughther she had choice to come or not. Had son couple times alone but BM made it so stressful by calling and babying him so much that that ended too. So going to court and having judge tell to do visitation is useless unless you have the drive and money to continue bringing her in time and time again.

Good luck.

lawless

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RE: Have been there and done that...
« Reply #32 on: Mar 15, 2006, 02:32:37 PM »
Thanks for your message.  This is exactly how I expect court to go for us.  This is why we stopped the process.  It is interesting that it is the BM who is taking my husband to court and requesting a GAL.  She wants to be completely removed from the situation.  I can tell you how it will go....Court will appoint GAL and spank BM for not being a parent by telling the children that they must go with and speak to their father.  GAL will determine that children should go on visitation.  Teenage daughters will refuse to come and nothing will be done about it as BM will support this.
We originally had younger daughter coming on visitation and then BM and older sister eventually convinced her to refuse too.  Very similar situation.  Court is March 22 and will post results if anyone is interested.
Lawless


MixedBag

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YOU BET WE WANT TO KNOW!
« Reply #33 on: Mar 15, 2006, 04:50:41 PM »
In my case, there is now a counselor involved....

And yep, I think along the same lines as you do.

Good luck!

lawless

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RE: YOU BET WE WANT TO KNOW!
« Reply #34 on: Mar 22, 2006, 05:45:10 PM »
OK, so here is what happened.  Just as we thought, the GAL was assigned.  BM fought for private GAL to be paid for by BF and BM so we fought for court appointed GAL or if private GAL is assigned we felt that we should not pay as we don't think it is necessary.  We feel that there is so little cause for visitation denial that a GAL who acctually sees abuse cases, etc. will be amazed at how wonderful my husband is and perplexed by why the girls are refusing to visit.  We found out today that they are claiming emotional abuse...This is like a twightlight zone moment as we are trying to think of what they might be talking about.  Apparently there is no proof required to appoint the GAL so that is what happened.

And so it begins.  The GAL will interview everyone and will probably make a "plan" for visitation to reoccur and then the girls will refuse to comply and we will be out the money for the attorney....again.

What continues to amaze us is how the BM can file this motion or that motion and drag things out and NO ONE ever tells her that she must provide the children for visitation.  The commissioner only ruled on the line item which was GAL or no GAL.  This really feels like a bad B movie.  At least we now know from all of our research that none of this will probably change a thing and we must just wait for the girls to get past this part of their lives.

Will keep everyone posted about the process.  Hopefully it is helpful.  We are coming up on the 2 year anniversary of the divorce....isn't it amazing that we are only at this point?  And the girls just keep growing up without us....

Sadly, Lawless

 

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