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Is ex denying visitation?

Started by awakenlynn, Jan 08, 2007, 09:16:22 AM

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awakenlynn

We are court ordered to pay for transportation for spring break and thanksgiving/christmas.

Ex is stating that the flight must originate in the airport of her choice and it must be non-stop.  

She argues that the connecting airport is too complicated for the SD and the flight attendant to manuver thru safely(Dallas/Ft. Worth) and she just doesn't trust the airport or the attendant.  

Ex recently moved and the airport she choose is an hour away from her.  If we got the non-stop flight, it means we have to drive an extra 3.5 hours each way, twice a visit with an additional cost of $400 for the entire visit.

We agreed to keep SD on non-stop flights until she was 13, which she did a year ago.  SD has now been flying for 3 and a half years.

We cannot do the extra driving anymore.  We are just not financially able to.  (Ex makes 3X's what we do). My husband has to take a day off of work (and still pay child support), we can't come up with and extra $400 and our car is older and we are afraid that it just won't make it.
(One flight with the ticket, unaccompanied minor fee and extra driving makes up about 3-4 months of child support)

We have a perfectly good airport in our community.  We would like SD to fly into it.

Ex states that she is not denying the visit, that we are because we refuse to put SD on the flights that meet her conditions.  There is nothing in the court order that states she gets to determine the flights, that we are responsible for the costs.

Are we the ones denying the visit, or is she?
Do we fly the SD with the non-stop (ex would have to drive the 3.5 hours each way) or do we go with the stop-over and have SD fly out of the city ex wants?

Any thoughts or advice?

Thanks,
Lynn

Kitty C.

Unless it's specifically court-ordered, there's no restrictions on how she flies and into which airports, except by the FAA.  And since she's 13, she's been able to fly with one stopover for 5 years.

Before DS was 8, we had to drive 4 hours each way to get him on a non-stop flight, 1000 miles every time he flew.  Because of his maturity level, his dad and I agreed to extend this for one year.  After that, he had to fly with only one stop.  We still drove the same distance (in the other direction) only because the flights were cheaper.

Your SD is certainly elligible to fly as an unaccompanied minor and unless your ex is able to get it CO'd otherwise, all you legally have to follow are the FAA guidelines in regards to UAM's.  I'd go to as many commercial carriers and print off the UAM info for all of them and give them to the ex.  With very little deviation, they all will be the same.  And if you book a flight with one stop, there's absolutely nothing the ex can do about it.  Oh, she could try to get an emergency hearing, but she would have to justify to the court why your SD must fly non-stop.  Do you think she could come up with that, other than that's what SHE wants?  Probably not.

So be prepared to go to court over the issue, but remember that if it isn't court ordered, you wouldn't be in contempt if you schedule her otherwise.
Handle every stressful situation like a dog........if you can't play with it or eat it, pee on it and walk away.......

notnew

What does your order say? That is what you must stick to. Nothing else. If it doesn't say it, then arrange as to what is best for you and tell her to either follow the plan or face contempt hearings. If she balks, follow through. She has been pulling the strings and you have to yank back.


mistoffolees

Going to court over it is likely to be expensive and leave no one happy. You're looking at twice a year for the next 4 years (until your SD is 18) at most. Is there a compromise that would make you happy? For example, you are well within your rights to do the connecting flight, but what if you offered that you would go ahead and drive to the non-stop airport if the other party pays the extra expense (both for the different in ticket prices and your travel costs)? Maybe you could find something to do in that city so that the trip wasn't entirely just to drop off and pick up at the airport.

Personally, I agree with the concerns about stop-overs. One airline wanted to make our SDs (ages about 16 and 17, IIRC) stay overnght in the airport with no supervision when they canceled a connecting flight. I would personally deal with a considerable amount of inconvenience in order to avoid a stop-over.

I know it is a pain, but so is going to court over an issue that is going away in 4 years (8 more visits).

Kitty C.

What airline was it??  When DS was 11-12 (and already a seasoned flyer), he was due to come home after Christmas with his dad.  His flight to Denver was a go, but his flight from Denver to Omaha was cancelled.  I have a lot of family who live in Denver who could have picked him up, but the airline was adamant that that he not even leave Sacramento until Denver was re-opened to outgoing traffic.

I guess we've been lucky, but we never had any problems the whole 10 years that DS flew by himself.  But we always went with United, too.  And he flew enough miles to cover 2 round trip tickets!  Those FF miles sure came in handy!  
Handle every stressful situation like a dog........if you can't play with it or eat it, pee on it and walk away.......

awakenlynn

We also have our concerns about stop-over flights, but we need to look into all our options. The connecting flight is either 3.5 hours from ex's house or from our house depending on the flight.  So if there was ever a cancellation, it would become an emergency.  As to ex driving the 3.5 hours, it takes her to the airport that would be the one that has the connecting flight.  Since she is concerned about the largeness of the airport, then she would be there to get the SD to the gate instead of the flight attendant.

If ex wanted to pay for the extra costs associated with us driving to Chicago, that would be fine.  But she will refuse as that would not be 'convenient' for her.  We would try and do something so it would not be a lost day, but my husband has to take off a day of work(the less income now to come home), we have to be up about 6am to make the drive, sit in the airport and wait, and we get back about 4pm.  We don't have the money to make the trip much less have the money to do anything extra.  We have to use the money for the drive so there is no money to do ANY activities while SD is here.  So she sits here bored for a week and a half.  She can only watch so much tv and we don't have cable.  

Ex knows what the UAM rules are.  We have sent he the copy.  We use one airline.  That way we know the airline and its rules.  It's easier than keeping track of more than one and all the changes that occur here and there.

But why can't the shoe go on the other foot, why can't ex drive the same 3.5  hours and then she still gets the non-stop.  

I am not being petty, just asking.  

Is she in contempt for not putting SD on the flight(stop-over or non-stop-but not the airport she picked)?  Or are we denying the visit for not doing what she demands?

Thanks,
Lynn

Kitty C.

(Slap on the forehead)  Of course!  Thanks, notnew!

Absolutely, if you schedule and pay for the flight, all within the parameters of the CO and guidelines of the FAA, she doesn't have a leg to stand on.  And definitely file for contempt if she refuses.

If you ever have to go to court for contempt on this, or she requests a hearing in regards to it, offer her this compromise:  You would be willing to fly SD non-stop, but ONLY if the ex pays for the needless costs that you will incur, along with the flights.  If she knows she could be hit in the wallet, she just might back down.
Handle every stressful situation like a dog........if you can't play with it or eat it, pee on it and walk away.......

MixedBag

Is there anything else in the order that says WHO has the final say in making decisions regarding to the child?

As the NCP who pays for and arranges transportation, I filed a motion for clarification on this subject and the judge sided with me.  

However all judges are different.

Not sure it would be "contempt" on the mother's part for not putting the child on the plane.  Seen a BM express soooooo many unfounded concerns that would make you barf, because her main goal was control and not what's in the child's best interest.

Negotiate or mediate to the best of your ability first.

You've been given some really good ideas.

AND lastly, go to soc's section of these boards.  Search on "elements of contempt" because there are three.  Too tired tonight to remember what they are -- but it's the third one that would concern me in your situation.

The order isn't CLEAR enough to find her in contempt because she will whine and say she's worried about the child.....and that will get her out of it.

This comes from a parent who has flown 6 kids around the country to include Hawaii.....for 18 years now.


mistoffolees


>
>But why can't the shoe go on the other foot, why can't ex
>drive the same 3.5  hours and then she still gets the
>non-stop.  
>
>I am not being petty, just asking.  

Of course. I must not have read carefully enough and missed that option. The way I would do it is to tell the ex (preferably in writing): "I'm putting her on the connecting flight with the following schedule which is allowed by our divorce decree and FAA rules. However, if you're willing to pay the difference in fare and drive the extra distance (about 3.5 hours each way) to the xxxx airport, I can put her on the direct flight".

There's nothing that says that you should be the one to be inconvenienced. OTOH, there's nothing to stop her from being a PIA. Offer what you think is a reasonable alternative (such as the above paragraph) and see what kind of response you get.

The worst that can happen is that she refuses to drive the extra distance or pay the fare difference, but you would at least be able to demonstrate to the court that you tried to address her concerns.

Of course, she might turn it around and ask you to drive the extra distance. You could refuse or you could say "OK, I'd be willing to do that, but you'd have to pay me $0.48 per mile (or whatever)."

I'm a firm believer in trying to resolve this issues out of court, if possible. The easiest way for you to do that is to offer to meet her demands (direct flight) and tell her what it's going to cost her (extra driving time). That puts the ball in her court, but you've tried to be flexible.

>
>Is she in contempt for not putting SD on the flight(stop-over
>or non-stop-but not the airport she picked)?  Or are we
>denying the visit for not doing what she demands?

I have an opinion, but it's not going to be very helpful. I'd ask Socrateaser.

awakenlynn

We use AA.  They have been really good.  

We too should have enough by the time SD turns 18 to get one free ticket.  We wait for that day-one trip we do not have to stress over finding the money and not paying bills.  No worry about the mortgage or losing utilities.

Lynn

awakenlynn

Reading through everyone's answer, the options are

1. nonstop with ex doing the driving
2. layover
3. ask ex to pay the difference and we will do the extra driving.

We have asked, begged, pleaded, sent letters, emails and called her.  She states we are responsible for the transportation, she will not pay a penny AND she will only put daughter on the flight if it is out of the city she picks and non-stop.

We are going to send a formal letter out with our attorney, stating our position.  In the meantime, we still need to buy a ticket: $640 for lay-over, or $425 non-stop(ex drives).

She will not discuss it or mediate it.  Non of the 3 options are 'convenitent' for her, therefore she will not do them.  (her words, not mine).

As to the court order, it only states who is responsible for the cost of which visit.  Nothing about airports.  The judge did not realize that this would be an issue.  While he made some statements in our favor, they did not make it to the final court order.  Also, we are having to file the court order in a different jurisdiction.

We know that the contempt is impossible with the vagueness of the order, so the question is really "Who is denying the visit?  Ex because of her demands, or us for not giving in to her demands?"

When we file the foreign order, we will also be filing a clarification, so that way TX law does not come into play(in theory-we know).  Even then the only thing we would be fighting there is not allowing a reduction in the summer visit from 8weeks to  6weeks as we only get SD 3 times a year and ex refuses all other visits when she is in the area(family still lives here)  There is nothing of substantial change that would require TX to make any changes to the court order.

We will want to clarify the transporation,
the medical insurance(asking that if ex refuses to allow us to use her insurance-as stipulated, then she must help pay the co-pay when our insurance must be used)
and the phone calls(ex states that SD is responsible enough for a cell phone, but does not keep it charged, "loses" it and doesn't take it with her when she goes out.) Ex  refuses to answer the phone on her cell phone when it is us calling.  If she deems the message worthy, she will return the call(calling SD is not good enough)  She also refuses to tell SD that hubby calls(I know we can't prove that one).

So we are sending ex a certified letter spelling out her choices and will send a copy to the attorney.  Any response along with all the emails over the years will go to him too.  That way we are ready.

Thanks,
Lynn

notnew

That if the order does not say anything about the lay-overs, non-stop flights, etc., then they don't apply. Your cooperation with something that she is demanding that is clearly an undue financial burden on  you and hardship is creating an established pattern that you are willing to do. Is that what you want?

If the order doesn't spell out any rules, then there are NONE. It does create a difficult situation. The Order needs to be clarified ASAP. I believe making arrangements without the added costs, sending her aletter informing of such and also that a motion for clarification is in process with the courts (make sure you submit motion stating exactly what you want with a revised order attached for the court's signature) that way you have a better chance of getting what you want instead of the court giving in to a silly comprimise battle.

YOu also need phone contact stipulated (days of the week between xxx time and xxx time). AND insurance orders must be complied with or file contempt. Period. When she knows you aren't playing any games and you know the rules and how they work, she will comply or dig her grave (not literally) in the court's eyes.

Being a hard ass on this and getting the wording in the order that gives you more power to be a hard ass and make it stick is the only way to go here.

good luck

mistoffolees

>Reading through everyone's answer, the options are
>
>1. nonstop with ex doing the driving
>2. layover
>3. ask ex to pay the difference and we will do the extra
>driving.
>
>We have asked, begged, pleaded, sent letters, emails and
>called her.  She states we are responsible for the
>transportation, she will not pay a penny AND she will only put
>daughter on the flight if it is out of the city she picks and
>non-stop.
>
>We are going to send a formal letter out with our attorney,
>stating our position.  In the meantime, we still need to buy a
>ticket: $640 for lay-over, or $425 non-stop(ex drives).
>
>She will not discuss it or mediate it.  Non of the 3 options
>are 'convenitent' for her, therefore she will not do them.
>(her words, not mine).
>
>As to the court order, it only states who is responsible for
>the cost of which visit.  Nothing about airports.  The judge
>did not realize that this would be an issue.  While he made
>some statements in our favor, they did not make it to the
>final court order.  Also, we are having to file the court
>order in a different jurisdiction.
>
>We know that the contempt is impossible with the vagueness of
>the order, so the question is really "Who is denying the
>visit?  Ex because of her demands, or us for not giving in to
>her demands?"
>
>When we file the foreign order, we will also be filing a
>clarification, so that way TX law does not come into play(in
>theory-we know).  Even then the only thing we would be
>fighting there is not allowing a reduction in the summer visit
>from 8weeks to  6weeks as we only get SD 3 times a year and ex
>refuses all other visits when she is in the area(family still
>lives here)  There is nothing of substantial change that would
>require TX to make any changes to the court order.
>
>We will want to clarify the transporation,
>the medical insurance(asking that if ex refuses to allow us to
>use her insurance-as stipulated, then she must help pay the
>co-pay when our insurance must be used)
>and the phone calls(ex states that SD is responsible enough
>for a cell phone, but does not keep it charged, "loses" it and
>doesn't take it with her when she goes out.) Ex  refuses to
>answer the phone on her cell phone when it is us calling.  If
>she deems the message worthy, she will return the call(calling
>SD is not good enough)  She also refuses to tell SD that hubby
>calls(I know we can't prove that one).
>
>So we are sending ex a certified letter spelling out her
>choices and will send a copy to the attorney.  Any response
>along with all the emails over the years will go to him too.
>That way we are ready.
>
>Thanks,
>Lynn

If she's not willing to discuss it, I would arrange for the ticket with the plane change and say "here's the flight schedule".

The court order does not mandate that you do what's 'convenient' for her. If she refuses to put the daughter on the flight, have your attorney file an immediate emergency hearing to cite her for contempt of court. Frankly, I'd be willing to bet that when it comes down to it, she'll go along.

awakenlynn

We do not want to establish a pattern where ex always gets what she wanted.  We asked for a stipulation stating that both parties would have SD fly non-stop until age 13.  Ex refused, and our attorney at the time said we should follow the stipulation in good faith.  Now I just have to find a copy of it.

We are putting our foot down as this is the first flight since she turned 13.  We are going to write up a letter using the visitation letter in SPARC with adjustments for the transportation issues.

We are going to cc our attorney(which we will be hiring in about 2 weeks) and send him everything else that we have.  With everything else we are sending to the attorney is going to be a petition to clarify the order.  It will specifically state no flights earlier than 7am, and that each party gets to designate the airport at their own end and it will be non-negotiable for the other party.  If that determines it will be a lay-over flight, so be it.

We have phone contact spelled out, that says hubby can call with a minimum of twice a week, once being Weds. between 7-8pm CDT.  Ex rarely ever has SD available, but it has always been ok to call whenever.  Ex just refuses to have a reliable phone.  We do not beleive the SD's cell phone counts.  Ex refuses to make sure SD keeps it charged or avail.  SD also said at Christmas, her cell phone disappeared.  Mom has emailed that her phone is not allowed to contact SD.  She screens her calls and does not tell SD that her dad called.  My husband calls both phones.

As to medical, it got complicated too.  Husband is court ordered to have medical insurance.  Apparently that was causing trouble for the ex.  Her husband has military insurance.  She signed a stipulation that she covers SD on her insurance.  The problem now is that ex refuses to make sure SD is covered when she is here.  SD has a doctor here, the same as her siblings.  This doctor takes the insurance, ex just refuses to do her part, and we can't do it for her.  So until she chooses to, we use our insurance(we never dropped SD and won't) and ex should be liable for part of the co-pay.

We are going to review everything from the previous court order and make sure it is much more airtight.

Thanks,
Lynn

Ref

That airport is a little tricky. I wouldn't have chosen it if it were me. Sd has the option of connecting in Charlotte or Altlanta, but Atlanta is similarly complicated. So we have had her fly through Charlotte for quite some time.

I wouldn't worry too much about it if she is accompnaied by an attendent, but it wont calm BM down.

Maybe you can call the airline and have get someone's name and number that can talk to your ex and let her know how it works.

Is the flight early? If it is early, print out all the alternate flights that SD would be connected to if there is any issues. Show ex that the child will not be stuck in the airport all night.

Best wishes,
Ref


HelpingHands

Could you not pay for a one way flight out of mom's choice of airports and put her on a different flight home through the airport that is more convenient to you? Mom doesn't need to know until after you daughter is home with you for the visitation, correct? Mom wouldn't dare leave your daughter sitting at the airport of your choice to pick her up now would she?

Would the costs be similar to saving the $$ for the drive 3 1/2 hrs one way?

If you can, book one flight to you from mom's airport choice and one flight home using the airport of your choice. Is there anything preventing this from happening? If you know your days in advance I am sure you can get a good deal if you make your reservation several months advance.

awakenlynn

We are not real thrilled with Dallas/Ft. Worth either, but it is the only option. I think we could do O'Hare if it were an overnight(which isn;t allowed) or a flight that wasn't reasonable.  (I don't remember off hand).

Two different flights is possible I guess, I would really have to look into prices.  The difference between the one non-stop and the layover(more expensive) is about $225.

I will look into everyone suggestions and find one's that work.  Having ex talk to anyone won't.  She doesn't want to do anything and nothing will help incline her to allow either a different airport or layover.

Thank you,
Lynn

HelpingHands

I don't see that she really has the authority to dictate where YOUR transportation monies are spent.  Then again, if it were to go to court- the judge may order that since the child is familiar with that particular airport that that is what's in her best interests. Or he could order that since you are responsible for transportation costs, that you can pay the additional fees assocaited with mom taking daughter to your choice airport.

Looking at the worse case scenerio for you guys. In the long run, with court costs, legal fees and additional set backs, is it worth it in the end to fight too hard?  Trust me, I know too well the costs involved with long distance visitations, though mine wasn't via airlines. I've missed days upon days of work jeopardizing my job and paid dearly to the gas pumps.

awakenlynn

The problem is we CANT go to the airport of her choice.  We don't mind putting SD on the flight originating at the airport of her choice.  It just means that it will be a layover flight.

Since we have had to do all the extra driving, then shouldn't ex have to re-imburse us for the costs that SHE caused over the last 3 years?

So which is the bigger priority of ex's demands, that the flight be non-stop or that SD flies out of the airport of ex's choice?

Lynn