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Author Topic: How should I prepare, for mediation etc...  (Read 4423 times)

Tchmymnd

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How should I prepare, for mediation etc...
« on: Jun 02, 2004, 11:21:38 AM »
My daughters father has not been a consistent part of her life.  He is now working on filing to get a parenting plan going, which will lead to Legal Custody being established.

I need to know how I should prepare for this? If there is anything I should do, how I can appear to look "on top of things" if possible, what I can expect, how reasonable my requests might be.

I have wanted him to take take on responsibility for her, and now I am scared, I have read, and heard many experiences, and I am just scared.

Thanks!

Becky


Kitty C.

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RE: How should I prepare, for mediation etc...
« Reply #1 on: Jun 02, 2004, 12:09:33 PM »
Well, he's doing exactly what you wanted, so what's the problem?  If he wants to be a parent, he should be allowed that chance.  His offering a parenting plan means that he's serious about his intent and his determination to his child.  All I can suggest is you do the same.  You both need to learn to effectively co-parent for the sake of your child.  She needs both of you in her life.
Handle every stressful situation like a dog........if you can't play with it or eat it, pee on it and walk away.......

joni

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what are you scared about
« Reply #2 on: Jun 03, 2004, 10:38:01 AM »

are your intentions not sincere with regards to him being in her life?  are you afraid he's going to take her away from you?

the way you have to approach this is of generosity and the best interest of your child.  AMEN that he's finally stepping up to the plate.

as you'll read on this board, it's nearly impossible to take a child away from the mother, even if the mother is a crack addict...SO RELAX, that's not going to happen.

prove to the judge that you're a caring mom who wants dad in the life.  go in with your own parenting plan, be very specific about the assignment of days, pick up/drop off time, holidays.  hopefully, yours and dads plans will match.

don't buy into the BS of gradually allowing visitation over time, be done with it, give him what he's entitled to and move on with your life.

time will tell...he'll be a great dad, there'll be no tension, your child will be thrilled to be around daddy, there will be no problems.

or...dad will hang himself, given enough rope, and drop off again.  that will be sad, I hope not for your child's sake.

and remember..........this is all about your child and no matter what you think about this guy....he is her daddy and all girls need their daddys.  don't destroy her dreams.  that's not your job...or your responsibility.

StPaulieGirl

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RE: How should I prepare, for mediation etc...
« Reply #3 on: Jun 04, 2004, 12:27:48 AM »
A couple of questions for you.  How old is your daughter, and how much time has her dad actually spent with her during her life?  What has changed in her dad's life that he's willing to step up and be a regular presence in her life?

Don't freak out about this.  As mothers, it seems like we always feel like we're being judged.  Talk to a counselor and discuss your concerns.  If all else fails, watch endless episodes of "Married With Children".  See?  You're better than that :-)

Tchmymnd

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RE: How should I prepare, for mediation etc...
« Reply #4 on: Jun 10, 2004, 11:34:44 AM »
I don't understand why the "hostile" responses to my post.  (If hostile is the wrong word I apologize).  I simply was asking how to prepare, what to expect.  I certainly don't want to waste anyone's time, especially the courts.  

I also don't understand why my comment of being scared was such a horrible statement.  I'm facing something very unusual for me.  Not an experience I have had before. And I have read and heard of MANY horrible stories regarding these issues.

I am not against my daughter's father, I am all for him being her father.  I KNOW he's not likely to be the kind of father I would hope for her to have in him, but for him to just want to be in her life on a regular basis, is important.

Im not scared of him taking her away from me.  And Im not insecure about my position as her mother.

"prove to the judge that you're a caring mom who wants dad in the life. go in with your own parenting plan, be very specific about the assignment of days, pick up/drop off time, holidays. hopefully, yours and dads plans will match."

So I should fill out a parenting plan form as well?

"don't buy into the BS of gradually allowing visitation over time, be done with it, give him what he's entitled to and move on with your life."

My daughter has anxiety disorder,  she gets panic attacks at night often.  She gets them bad enough that her body hurts and she feels like she is going to die (her words during the attack) She is too uncomfortable to tell her dad shes hungry, how can she go to him at a time like this.  I just want her to be able to feel safe, and not have to worry about being alone and having one.  Many things trigger these for her, she was at her dads when he and her watched a lifetime movie, that had a gun and murder in it. she came home and that night had anxiety couldnt get to sleep cause she was scared.  

Isn't at least worth requesting.  Shouldnt her dad care about this stuff?  

"and remember..........this is all about your child and no matter what you think about this guy....he is her daddy and all girls need their daddys. don't destroy her dreams. that's not your job...or your responsibility."

I know too well, about being a girl and not having her daddy.  I know too well the pain that my daughter carries, because her dad has let her down so many times.  Making promises he hasnt kept, and disapointing her, and making her wonder if he even loves her.  I have spent 9 yrs, trying to assure her that he does love her.  That I don't know why he "did whatever it is he did at the time". But that I KNOW he loves her.  I havent always done the right thing in dealing with him. but I have tried, so hard to do the right thing, to be encouraging to a relationship between them, I have researched, and asked questions at other support stepfamily sites, I have done all I know to do. I have found mistakes I make, and changed them, hoping he would be more willing to be a part of her life.  IAM NOT against him being in her life, I want that for her more then anything, I know the damage it has caused.  And finally I told him, NO MORE.  That if he wanted to be a part of her life he would need to go to court for it.  (Thus getting the parenting plan)  Maybe it wasnt right for me to say that. But I am her mother, and If it's hurting her far more to have him play games, then to not have him there at all then so be it.  I didn't close the door, I simply closed the windows.  I know you all are against this sort of thing.  And believe me I am aware of the fact that fathers don't recieve the rights that they deserve many many times.  But this father, needs to step up to the plate.  I can't control whether or not he does, but I can possibly make a difference in my daughters life.

Now that I rambled, Iwill finish responding...


I think I have pretty much answered most the questions, my daughter is 9, and her father on average has seen her once or twice a year.  Then last summer he had a girlfriend, who encouraged him to spend more time with my daughter. so for about six weeks, there were like four visits.  Then they broke up and he didn't have my daughter for a visit again for months. He lives here in town, in fact last summer for six months he was a ten min walk from us.  I don't remember the last time she spent the night with him.  He always had just male roomates, at one time it was 6 of em in an apartment, drugs were heavily used.  I don't think HE was ever into the drugs much, but he was a heavy drinker... thus why we are no longer together.  But with no legal papers or nothing I wasnt about to expect my daughter, who has anxiety disorder, and has issues with men, since she had been sexually abused. (which by the way was an almost two year judicial process, where her father never once asked about how things were going, when the trial was, HOW SHE WAS doing, nothing)  Spend the night with him.  She has a LONGING for him, but theres not a relationship there. Not hardly.  At Christmas which is his birthday, she will go to her aunts house where he is.  and he will watch football.  This is like a 2 or 3 hour period of time she has with him, remember an average of twice a year she sees him.  and he will watch football.  Sometimes he might play a game of pool with her, but just once, and then back to the games.  Her paternal grandma is there, but I have seen this woman watch my daughter walk up to thier house, and she NOT EVEN SAY HI to my daughter.  My daughter comes back very unhappy, (except the times that he was with the girlfriend, which he is with her again now.  I think this woman is great, and great for my daughter and her father).  He rarely calls her.  he has called twice this past week.  Because After telling him that he couldnt see her, less hewent to court, then hearing he got papers, I was pleased to see him doing what he needs to as a father.  I told him, that it would be fine for him to see her, just that he needs to show her consistency through this process.  so there are plans for her to see him on fathers day.  But during these years, the phone calls might have come once a month.

I want to do the right thing, and I have been trying to without involving personal feelings.  The only personal feelings involved here are the fact that my daughter is being hurt over and over and over, and I have allowed it to continue.





Tchmymnd

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RE: How should I prepare, for mediation etc...
« Reply #5 on: Jun 10, 2004, 11:41:06 AM »
One more thing, regarding scheduling.   I don't even know his schedule, but already they are talking of having my daughter while he is at work, and then his girlfriend can watch her.  I don't have a problem with this, but I DON"T want it to be all the time. Not in the beginning, his girlfriend and I have talked about how hurt my daughter was, to have the girlfriend jump into her life, have a tremendous influence on her, then all of a sudden be gone.  There relationship has been off and on, and we talked about wanting to go slow with the girlfriends relationship with my daughter.  But anyhow, my question is, do I put down a schedule that works for us.  Do I put the norm, every other weekend,  and then whatever happens he may have to work his work schedule around that?

In the past when trying to schedule a time for him to have her, he would tell me.  "Sunday is my only day off this week, it's my day to rest" and he wouldnt see her...  So how do I address the schedule part...

Thanks for being here, and offering feedback!

Becky

StPaulieGirl

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weird
« Reply #6 on: Jun 11, 2004, 12:49:30 AM »
No offense to you, but the whole situation is strange.  Coming from a personal perspective, a gf/bf is not supposed to be watching the kids, the parent is.  It's more than just "watching them" because most parents want to spend their visitation time with their kids.

If you didn't read post #3, please do.  Think about it, and let us know your thoughts on the questions I asked.  Take care.  Btw, I am truly sorry about your girl.  I hope she can get better.


Tchmymnd

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Thanks St.PaulieGirl
« Reply #7 on: Jun 11, 2004, 04:16:25 PM »
Im not sure but I thought I had replied to all the replies, except the Married With Children statement, I just lol at that one as it certainly does make you feel better thinking about it.  

Im not sure what you were thinking I hadnt responded to, if you could let me know that would be great.  I thought maybe the question about why he NOW wants to be a part of her life wasnt answered completely.  I just know that I finally told him no more, then I heard from his girlfriend that he had gotten the papers to file, and hes getting a mediator.  I told em that we could probably agree to a plan, as I don't have many requests, Im quite flexible.  But guess he doesnt want to talk to me.  

Side note:  Two nights ago, I talked to him about fathers day, so we could set a time for him to pick my daughter up.  So we decided on noon, no problems.  Yesterday his GF messaged me, asking if it would be okay for her to pick up my daughter at 4:30 5:00 after she got off work, and I said what? we already set a time.  She said well, her dad has to work till 2... Later last night I called him, and said I just wanted to get fathers day straightened out.  And he said "we talked about this last night"  I said well Gf talked to me about picking 'DD' up.  He said, no gf is assuming I want her too.   I said so do you work till 2, he said no gf is thinking I work that day.  I said so Noon then, and he said yep, I said ok....  

SO frankly, I won't be talking to GF anymore about plans or nothing, becuase I have no idea if they even talked about it.  

AND honestly I CANT see him spending the money to file papers.

Should I go ahead and fill out a parenting plan and file in case he didn't?


Kitty C.

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Red Flag..................
« Reply #8 on: Jun 14, 2004, 12:19:44 PM »
'Two nights ago, I talked to him about fathers day, so we could set a time for him to pick my daughter up. So we decided on noon, no problems. Yesterday his GF messaged me, asking if it would be okay for her to pick up my daughter at 4:30...........'

JMO, but I have serious problems with 'my daughter', especially when it's used back to back to back.  If you truely wanted her to have her father in her life and valued their relationship, you would say 'OUR daughter' EVERY single time.  All the more so if you use 'my' unconsciously.  I never once considered DS 'my son', regardless of whom I was talking to or about, I always said 'our'.  And even tho his dad died 2 years ago, DS is STILL our son.  I'm not physically capable of having a child without the help of male chromesomes, so he'll never be 'mine'.

Sorry, just a bone of contention with me............
Handle every stressful situation like a dog........if you can't play with it or eat it, pee on it and walk away.......

Tchmymnd

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RE: How should I prepare, for mediation etc...
« Reply #9 on: Jun 14, 2004, 01:31:34 PM »
With all due respect, I will say to you what I say to my children, when I use the word My in reference to something that is their's too, but im not speaking to them, instead to someone in which the "my" doesnt belong.  

Im am talking to you folks, so I refer to my daughter as My Daughter, she's not yours, shes mine.  If I'm talking to her dad, I do not say my daughter, I wouldnt say that to him.  

I have Never made any point to seperate him from my daughter at all, whether mentally or physically.

I think this was a bit petty, and then to call my saying "My Daughter" a red flag is rediculous...

Why do people waste the time to post this stuff, just stay out of the conversation if you have a problem with the way someone is speaking.


Kitty C.

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RE: How should I prepare, for mediation etc...
« Reply #10 on: Jun 14, 2004, 01:49:08 PM »
It's not words, it's intent.  It says a LOT about how you view the situation and all these issues we deal with are based on how we perceive the situation, especially from the CP's point of view.  I have yet to see a parent who used 'my' instead of 'our' CONSISTENTLY, regardless of whom they were speaking to, who didn't have visitation or custody issues.  When you get over the 'impression' that the child is a possession, with the use of a possessive word (my, mine), then you will find MANY of your custody and parenting time problems disappear.  It's all in the attitude........

And the last thing you want to do on this site is threaten.  I already said it was my opinion and opinions ARE allowed in this free society.  If you don't like it, don't respond to  it.  But as others here have said, I calls 'em as I sees 'em.
Handle every stressful situation like a dog........if you can't play with it or eat it, pee on it and walk away.......

Bolivar OH

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RE: How should I prepare, for mediation etc...
« Reply #11 on: Jun 14, 2004, 04:24:59 PM »
Kitty C. that’s interesting observation.  I have been reading your posts for a bit and enjoy your comments.  Unlike you, my ability to write and get my point across is very poor to say the least.

Back to your observation.  I went back to looked at my posts.  I noticed that when describing my situation I use the word MY once and OUR 3 times per paragraph. (that’s just average)

It never occurred to me the subtle nuance of MY and OUR even existed.  That’s a keen awareness you have.  Your right that does give the “'impression' that the child is a possession”.  I will keep guard on my English.

Tchmymnd

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RE: How should I prepare, for mediation etc...
« Reply #12 on: Jun 14, 2004, 06:44:23 PM »
When I first started resourching Family Law, I ran into a guy, online, who has a site for NC Fathers.  When seeking help from him, in order to get custody of my step children. (as they were in an abusive, violent, drug filled environment) The guy said that they use the constitution to get Custody. That in the constitution, it states that the children and all the rest of their household is their posession.   Because I totally disagree with "Children" being a posession, we no longer spoke with him.

Sauing 'my daughter', is not stating she is a possesion,  it is labeling her, giving her a name.  And here where I am not personal, I refer to her as my daughter.  

I am aware that there are mothers out there telling fathers that their kids are not the father.  I said already, that when I am talking to my ex, I don't refer to my daughter as MY daughter, I call her by name.  

My useing the label "My Daughter" has nothing to do with my perspective, my intent, or my situation with my visiting/custody issues.  Period...

You definately you are intitled to your opinion, the thing about opinions though, is they are based "in most cases" on assumed knowledge of situations.

And Please oh please, explain to me what part of my message was threatening... I am not a threatening person, but am curious as to what it is you found threatening.


Otherwise, if anyone as an opinion, or some kind of 'educated' feedback as to whether or not I should just go ahead now and file a parenting plan, I would appreciate it.  If I try to file, and he has already what would happen? I don't know how that would work.  Im not wanting to file to spite him FILING, I simply want to make sure it gets done.

Thanks for those offering feedback that is useful.


Kitty C.

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RE: How should I prepare, for mediation etc...
« Reply #13 on: Jun 15, 2004, 08:01:42 AM »
Actually, you gave me a good chuckle!  Because I have the opposite problem, I can get my point down in the written word, but I can't make it come out of my mouth the same way, LOL!  I think it's because of taking my time to write, allowing me to think things thru before I put it down.  Just out of curiosity, have you been diagnosed with Adult ADD or researched it at all?  I was diagnosed about 5 years ago, finally understanding why I had these perceived 'roadblocks' I couldn't get thru.

The nuance is certainly there, and most of the time those who do it don't even think of how it sounds or looks or realize what they are doing.  It took me a long time to make that realization.  Especially if your child hears you use it.  It's another extremely subtle form of PAS, because if the child hears it, they get the impression that they only belong to the parent saying 'my' and wonder why the other part of them isn't acknowledged.  Like the other part of them (the other parent) isn't worthy of mention.  And to them, it makes NO difference who you're talking to.  It's all the same to them.  I know that DS would just beam when I would say 'our', regardless of whether his dad was present or not and who I was talking to.  And even tho his dad is gone, DS is STILL our son and always will be, no matter what the situation.  Heck, even my 79 y.o. mom still uses 'our' when she talks of us kids, even tho my dad has been gone for 13 years.

It's subtleties like this that PAS gets it's start from.  If you recognize those subtle signs (and many don't), it's much easier to cut off the offending parent at the pass before it gets too far out of hand.  Just another aspect of custody every NCP needs to know!
Handle every stressful situation like a dog........if you can't play with it or eat it, pee on it and walk away.......

Tchmymnd

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RE: How should I prepare, for mediation etc...
« Reply #14 on: Jun 15, 2004, 11:23:58 AM »
"Your right that does give the “'impression' that the child is a possession”."

Doesnt saying OUR give the impression as well that the child is a possession?  

I have thought and thought about this, I have gone over the My child vs Our Child in my head.  And I just don't get it.  

Maybe, the fact that I was a single mom for ten yrs, and even when my kids fathers decided Not to be involved, It was just me.  

It's interesting though, because having finally gotten married to my now husband.  It has been an issue in how I refer to my step kids.  Calling them and mine OURS,  that seems to be a bigger issue than anything.  

Im not sure that having different ways of referring to our children, means theirs PAS involved,  if I spoke to the father saying shes mine. Or to my child saying "your mine". then yes, but in conversation with people other than him or her.  NO not at all.

I think though PAS is very real, some folks have gotten carried away with "diagnosing" it.

Kitty C.

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RE: How should I prepare, for mediation etc...
« Reply #15 on: Jun 15, 2004, 12:10:08 PM »
Diagnosing it is the toughest part.  Just like I told Bolivar, it's extremely subtle in the earliest stages, but if you look at the progression in a full-blown case, the roots of it are in the subtlety.

Yes, 'our' denotes possession.  And I apologize for not making myself clearer.  I was trying to differentiate between a singular possession and one that is 'shared'.  In PAS, the subtleties occur by systematically shutting out the other parent.  In this aspect, going from a shared 'possession' to a singular 'possession' is often the first move.  I think that 'possession' is a bad word to use, but given the circumstances, I can't think of a better explanation.

And you hit the nail right on the head in regards to blended families.  As much as SS's mother hates my guts, it makes it difficult to say 'our children' and not have it get back to her and get into a tizzy fit about SS not being 'my' child, but her's.  Funny how she can't see the same in regards to her husband and SS, since DH realizes that they are still a family, tho the dynamics may not be traditional.  If SF were to say 'our family', going into a protracted explanation isn't worth the time.  SS is just as much a part of his SF's family as he is in mine/ours.  PBFH just has major self-esteem issues and has always had a hard time with me being involved in SS's life in any shape or form.  She'd just prefer I didn't exist!

We see it as semantics, but there's intent, however subtle, in everything we say and do.  PAS is often referred to as 'brainwashing' and that is how traditional brainwashing is accomplished, by starting with the subtleties that no one would recognize as harmful, but when you persist with it, and over time add to it, it takes on a whole new meaning.  Like not being aware your kids have grown so much, until someone who hasn't seen them for a long time exclaims on how much they've changed.  If you see it and hear it every day, you don't think anything of it.  But when you look back at it over a period of time, you can see it as it truely is.

Does that make sense??
Handle every stressful situation like a dog........if you can't play with it or eat it, pee on it and walk away.......

Tchmymnd

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RE: How should I prepare, for mediation etc...
« Reply #16 on: Jun 15, 2004, 06:48:35 PM »
Yes I think it does make sense.  

I also think though, that it's NOT an issue of PAS even in a subtle form, if years have gone by, and there are not other symptoms.   As is the case here.  I REALLY have tried to get DD's BF involved with her.  I got some feedback once on how I can go a step further to help DD's BF feel more a part of her life, and thus I tried those things as well.  (Such as keeping school papers for him to see)  I always called to let him know when anything was happening. If its just a regular check up I don't. But infected toenails, I did.  Christmas program at church I did.  Even had him spend the night so he could get up in the morning to go to the trial with us, when she was five.  (He didn't and still doesnt drive).   I have tried to work with him, with communication.  I don't know.   Finally someone made the comment that maybe, he doesnt do more to be involved because thats what I want of him, even though it's for DD, it's still what I want.  So I don't know anymore at all.  

I did tell him, Im willing to talk, message on yahoo, whatever so that we could agree on a parenting plan, so he wouldnt have to worry about a mediator.  I mean, he was able to talk to me a few months back about feeling suicidal and such.  I told him Im very flexible and I am. Im not interested in fighting him on the schedules and such.   I don't want to fight at all. I just want DD to have her daddy...  thats what she wants, she feels he doesnt love her, I have told her he does.  He just doesnt know how to show it well.

Anyhow, Kitty I have read other messages from you, you seem to be a big help to others.  Do you have anything at all to share or suggest regarding, filing a parenting plan in case he doesnt? or how I should prepare for possible mediation.  I had emailed someone who works for mediation association, she said that it was great I was doing my homework, Mediators appreciate it when folks go in prepared.

PS... I have decided to TRY and stay away from the MY daughter. (Case you didn't notice that in the message, course it wasnt our either,) but Im willing to try to change it, in case it really does have an effect on attitude. I sure don't want to be with the kind of attitude that may make DD feel as though she's mine and not her dads.


Kitty C.

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RE: How should I prepare, for mediation etc...
« Reply #17 on: Jun 16, 2004, 09:43:56 AM »
There's some sample parenting plans on this site.  The trick is to tailor it to whatever suits your family situation, sometimes a tough proposition.  Every situation is unique and it takes a lot of time and diligence to come up with something that will work for everyone.

Another thing you need to consider is making allowances for changing needs.  One thing we failed to do in ours was plan for when DS was in HS and had other activities he would want to be involved in.  His dad lived 1800 miles away, so DS would spend ALL summer with him.  I realized that eventually DS would want to get a job, have friends he would want to hang with more often (tho he loves his dad dearly adn would never miss a chance to see him), or other things going on.  But his dad died 2 years ago of cancer, so that's a moot point now.  He's in summer school right now and it runs to the end of July.  If his dad were still alive, it would have made for a VERY difficult time for the both of them, and if need be, I would have deferred DS's start of the school year, just to get some extra time with his dad.

It's hard to think of everything, so don't feel bad if you think you haven't covered all the bases.  There is one other thing I would suggest, tho.  Because of the distance involved in our case, and that the CO was ordered in Dad's state, the judge ruled that if we came to an agreement that was NOT a part of the original order, that a written statement signed by both of us was equal to modifying the order and would hold up in court.  Very wise, since it allowed us to make changes, even permanent, without having to go thru the courts to get it.
Handle every stressful situation like a dog........if you can't play with it or eat it, pee on it and walk away.......

Bolivar OH

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RE: How should I prepare, for mediation etc...
« Reply #18 on: Jun 16, 2004, 02:15:55 PM »
Kitty C., I am dyslexic.  When my thoughts go from thinking to writing “brain tangle” occurs.  I try to keep my post short and to the point.  Otherwise I will loose the reader in a swamp of goop.  However, I find myself getting so caught up the board I want to post something.  You know, to be apart of it.  I’ve never been much of a side line player.  I like to be apart of the action.  So I will stumble along.  It’s more fun for me to stumble and share my ideas than sit on the side lines and just watch.

Kitty C.

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RE: How should I prepare, for mediation etc...
« Reply #19 on: Jun 16, 2004, 02:32:29 PM »
Share away!  And the more you participate, the more confident you will be about doing it, and the better you will get at it.  One thing I know that helps me tremendously is proofreading and editing.  I have made a serious habit of it.  I will transpose words and letters frequently.  And any average post from me usually takes 10-20 minutes just because of that!

Everyone here is very understanding, which is why I like it so well here.  I've seen you on another 'forum', where the posters aren't nearly as cordial or sympathetic.  But then again, they are just as bitter as the exes they got rid of, so I just consider the source and laugh it off.

If someone asks you about a post of yours and you realize that's not what you meant, just say so.  Everyone has strengths and weaknesses and everyone is human, certainly not perfect.  Frankly, I think you do a great job of describing how you feel and explaining yourself.  And I'm glad you're here!
Handle every stressful situation like a dog........if you can't play with it or eat it, pee on it and walk away.......

Tchmymnd

  • Guest
RE: How should I prepare, for mediation etc...
« Reply #20 on: Jun 16, 2004, 11:41:22 PM »
I am horrible with getting my thoughts down in words.  I have had so many people upset, because of misunderstanding my posts.  I recently left another site, because I couldn't get them to understand when I said No Im sorry, That wasnt what I intended to say at all.  

I am very scattered with my thoughts, I think yesterday I posted a reply on this thread, and I couldnt believe all the typos and such.

I KNOW that communicating on line like this is only 30% of COMMUNICATION... I try really hard to keep that in mind and know that I may easily misinterpret what others mean.

 

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