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Author Topic: shared legal cust can I order tax records  (Read 4760 times)

spinner

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shared legal cust can I order tax records
« on: Jan 08, 2007, 01:34:28 PM »
Hi,
with my ex we have shared legal cust of our kid.
we filed separate tax returns.
she claimed our kid.

having shared cust, do I have right to order transcripts of tax records based on the fact that our kid is on there and she claimed him.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f4506t.pdf

If I can't, can he?

In Short, he has right to see papers that were filed with his social sec number. But does he have right to order transcripts and or do I have right to do for him as guardian ?


williaer

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RE: shared legal cust can I order tax records
« Reply #1 on: Jan 08, 2007, 08:40:50 PM »
Why do you need them? Honestly- I'm all about privacy and if you want to have it- you have to give it. Is there something you feel like you need to know that those papers are going to answer? If it's financial information, the other party can be compelled by the court to turn them over, if you think there is information that would make a difference in your case.

spinner

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RE: shared legal cust can I order tax records
« Reply #2 on: Jan 08, 2007, 08:45:08 PM »
need them to prove the other party is lieing.
court compeled other party to provide them and other party did however I am 200% they are fake or redone papers

mistoffolees

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RE: shared legal cust can I order tax records
« Reply #3 on: Jan 09, 2007, 09:16:50 AM »
I'd be shocked if you could order a copy of the tax papers. You have no legal right to them.

IRS rules on who can claim the deducation are reasonably clear (at least as clear as IRS rules ever get). If your agreement does not provide that one party claims the deduction, go by IRS rules. If she's breaking the law, leave it to the IRS to catch her (if you're really sure of your position, you could even turn her in as a whistleblower, but that is likely to get you in trouble with respect to doing something that's ultimately harmful for the kids).

You have no right to know if she's lying on her tax returns. Your obligation is to do what's right on your own returns.

I don't believe your kids can order copies of their parents' tax returns, either. The fact that a parent claims a child as a dependent doesn't give the child the right to copies of the returns.

However, I'm not a lawyer, so you might want to ask Socrateaser to make sure. I'd be surprised if his answer is any different, though.

mistoffolees

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RE: shared legal cust can I order tax records
« Reply #4 on: Jan 09, 2007, 09:19:49 AM »
How are you convinced that they're fake? Don't let your anger get the better of you.

You simply have no right to evidence to 'prove' that the other party is lying. If you have any evidence that the forms she gave to the court are false, turn it over to your attorney who will then ask the court to charge her with contempt. Don't get involved yourself.

If you don't have hard, written evidence, I'd let your attorney know, anyway, but then drop it. Unless you have proof, you're stuck. The court is not going to authorize a fishing expedition based on hearsay.

Not to mention that there's the issue of motives. What's your point? I can understand anger and retaliation, but do you think it's in the best interest of your kid(s) for the mother to be thrown into jail?


spinner

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RE: shared legal cust can I order tax records
« Reply #5 on: Jan 09, 2007, 10:49:11 AM »
there is no anger, I don't know why you are talking about anger.

I know that she changed her 1040 and gave the court a "home made one" to avoid paying school for her child.

our child saw the original 1040 however "saw" doesn't help.

Also the goal is not for me to put my ex in contempt but rather for our child to be able to enter the school of his choice.
Again I don't know where you read that I was seeking jail or even contempt or even that I was upset.

I am simply trying to help my kid get into the school he wants


the right to the 1040 is exactly what I am asking here.
Does my kid have right to order a copy of the 1040 of his mother where she claimed him ???

spinner

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RE: shared legal cust can I order tax records
« Reply #6 on: Jan 09, 2007, 10:51:44 AM »
it's not a question of who can claim the kid, she claimed him point
she also didn't lie on her 1040 with IRS, she made another 1040 and gave it to the court as to her income. I am just trying to help my kid prove that the paper she gave is not correct and that she makes considerably more

I am pro se that's why I asked

mistoffolees

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RE: shared legal cust can I order tax records
« Reply #7 on: Jan 09, 2007, 11:11:20 AM »
As I said, there is no way that your kid is going to have the right to get a copy of a parent's tax return. Neither do you.

Even if what your child claims is accurate, how does that show that she didn't file an amended return with the government?

I also can't figure out how in the world a copy of your ex's tax return is going to allow you to change your child's school.

As I said, you need to review the IRS rules on dependents as well as your divorce agreeement (with counsel if necessary) and determine whether you have the legal right to claim your son. If so, anything your ex does is irrelevant. There's absolutely no way it could change the situation with respect to your son's college.

You need to stop, take a breath, and think rationally about this. Your child's schooling has absolutely nothing to do with who claims him as a deduction on their taxes. I can't think of any reason in the world why you'd need a copy of her return other than to stir up trouble.

mistoffolees

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RE: shared legal cust can I order tax records
« Reply #8 on: Jan 09, 2007, 11:15:11 AM »
If you're going to argue something pro se, you need to get your arguments straight and then support them with facts.

First, you said that the issue was who claimed your son as dependent. Now you're saying that you think she makes more than she claimed.

Neither really matters. You don't have a right to her tax return, nor does your son.

If you have evidence that she lied about her income, then you have two options:
a. Present the evidence to the court and ask for her to be cited for contempt.
b. Present the evidence to the court and ask for a change in support

If you have evidence that she lied about claiming your son as a dependent, you also have two options:
a. Present the evidence to the court and ask for her to be cited for contempt
b. Ignore it and file your returns with the correct information and leave it to the IRS to sort it out.

If you don't have factual evidence to support your claim, you're out of luck. I suppose you could hire a private investigator to get a copy of her tax returns, but I'm not sure that this would be successful and might even be illegal.

spinner

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RE: shared legal cust can I order tax records
« Reply #9 on: Jan 09, 2007, 11:27:41 AM »
I do not know if he has the rioght, this is what I asked

I am sorry to say it bluntly like this but you are not getting it.

- I am not trying to change my kid school, he is in age to choose his school. Schools after high school can cost a boat load and income of the parents can help. Our divorce order stipulate that pending our income we agree to help our kid with finance.

- why would I look to see if I can claim my kid> this has nothing to do with the question. I know she claimed him and I am not contesting that she can claim him. Again, I don't understand why you talk about me wanting to claim him. I have no desire to claim him on my tax.

- I never said it has anything to do whith who claims him.
again, you are the one talking about who claims him as an issue, not me

spinner

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RE: shared legal cust can I order tax records
« Reply #10 on: Jan 09, 2007, 11:36:34 AM »
Again, read the first post. I never said the issue was who claimed the child.

You are debating on a subject that has nothing to do with my first question. please re-read the first post

mistoffolees

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RE: shared legal cust can I order tax records
« Reply #11 on: Jan 09, 2007, 01:37:36 PM »
Maybe you should read your first post. You made an issue of your ex claiming your son. If you are concerned about her lying about her income, you should have stated that as the issue in your first post - not the 5th or 6th one.

Now, go back and read my previous post. You have no right to her tax records. If you have evidence that she's lied in the documents used to calculate support, you can provide it to the court. Without that evidence, the court is going to say you're on a fishing expedition.

It may all be irrelevant, anyway. If your court order is no more specific than what you've given, you can't demand any more money from her even if she earns a million dollars a year. Does it simply say that you 'agree to help with finances' or does it give a specific formula?

Even that is a moot point unless you can prove that she's lying on her taxes.

mistoffolees

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RE: shared legal cust can I order tax records
« Reply #12 on: Jan 09, 2007, 01:38:45 PM »
"Hi,
with my ex we have shared legal cust of our kid.
we filed separate tax returns.
she claimed our kid.

having shared cust, do I have right to order transcripts of tax records based on the fact that our kid is on there and she claimed him."

Sure looks like you're making an issue of it.

But, as I've explained repeatedly, it's irrelevant. Neither you nor your son has any rights to her tax returns.

wysiwyg

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RE: shared legal cust can I order tax records
« Reply #13 on: Jan 09, 2007, 02:02:46 PM »
I am not an attorney and can not advise but I can give my 2 cents, first I agree with MistofeleesI do not believe that with identity theft etc you can get this infomraiton especially if it contains a SS#, which 1040's do.  Second if your child is a minor I would not think that as a minor they can ask for records.

So that being said and you believe she has provided a "false" 1040 to the court, why not subpoena her income - pay stubs, and all relevent financial incomes from property, accounts etc, to prove her figures in the 1040?  I believe you can do a subpoena thru the courts or interogatories asking for said info.  

You might ask Soc his opinion on getting this information, and if it is necessary etc.

spinner

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RE: shared legal cust can I order tax records
« Reply #14 on: Jan 09, 2007, 02:33:51 PM »
"do I have right to order transcripts of tax records based on the fact"

I don't see where I am making an issue of who is claiming him

I ask a simple question (which you already have answered)... on the fact that only describes the fact, not that I am making an issue about it

spinner

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RE: shared legal cust can I order tax records
« Reply #15 on: Jan 09, 2007, 02:36:37 PM »
can I do a suppenea to her work for W2?
who would I do the suppenea to for W2.


PS: that's what I was looking for, good advises rather than someone butheading on anger and getting back at, .... boy some peoples here are on fire seeing ghosts all over. Anyway thank you, this is what I was looking for

mistoffolees

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RE: shared legal cust can I order tax records
« Reply #16 on: Jan 09, 2007, 02:50:10 PM »
Since the divorce appears to have already been finalized, my guess is that he's not going to be succesfful in subpoena'ing the documents.

Unless he has hard evidence of fraud, the court is likely to treat it as a fishing expedition and decline (at least if her attorney is even halfway competent). If he already has hard evidence, he should by all means present it to the court and ask for adjustment to support as I suggested several times.

Fortunately, THINKING someone is cheating isn't enough in this country to prove guilt.

But your suggestion to as Soc for an opinion is worthwhile.

wysiwyg

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RE: shared legal cust can I order tax records
« Reply #17 on: Jan 09, 2007, 03:14:23 PM »
I understand what you are saying and for the most part I could have agreed with you, however, we have gotten these same types of records in interoggatories and subpoenas post divorce, typically done for recalculation of CS and day care expenses.  This is how we found out that BM was not paying the 100 week she claimed to have spent on day care when in fact she wa sonly paying 32.00 a week, and this is also how we found out that she was nopt coveringthe child's medical insurance as ordered by the court.  It was a thought, but you are right, Soc would haev the most insight and best advice.

mistoffolees

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RE: shared legal cust can I order tax records
« Reply #18 on: Jan 09, 2007, 04:34:25 PM »
The reason I don't think it's going to go anywhere is that she's already provided the court with all the information they requested, so there's no grounds for another subpoena unless there's evidence of fraud.  He's going to go into court and say "I want my wife's income information" and she's going to say "I already provided it".

Unless he can prove that she's lying, case closed - and he's likely to end up paying her legal expenses, too.

Of course I may have missed something which is why Soc is here.

Ref

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I don't see it either
« Reply #19 on: Jan 10, 2007, 11:01:06 AM »
You legally can not get a copy of the return from the IRS. Are you going back to court? Have you filed for something? If so, I would supeona your ex for final paystubs. You can compare the information with the return you already recieved.

Is your child applying for student loans? If so, I believe they ask for the parents to provide income information to them. You might be able to get the info that way.

Another option is if the child was on lunch assistance for school. You have every right to see those records and BM would have to put her salary down for that. Chances are that she would lie there too and say she is making less so that the kid has the benefit.

I know what you were saying. You thought the fact that you both could claim the child would enable you to get the info from the IRS. You weren't concerned about who gets to claim. It isn't the case.

Do you think she is lying enough to make it worth the search?

DH's ex's attorney asked him for 3 years of tax returns, paystubs for 6 months, bank statements for a year for all accounts in his name or joint. The court didn't stop her, so I don't think they would stop you from requesting the same.

Good Luck
Ref

Jade

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RE: shared legal cust can I order tax records
« Reply #20 on: Jan 11, 2007, 12:56:14 PM »
>Hi,
>with my ex we have shared legal cust of our kid.
>we filed separate tax returns.
>she claimed our kid.
>
>having shared cust, do I have right to order transcripts of
>tax records based on the fact that our kid is on there and she
>claimed him.
>
>http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f4506t.pdf
>
>If I can't, can he?
>
>In Short, he has right to see papers that were filed with his
>social sec number. But does he have right to order transcripts
>and or do I have right to do for him as guardian ?
>

Neither one of you have the right to order copies of tax returns on each other without a court order.  Even if the child is on it.  

It's your ex's return, not your child's.  

Jade

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RE: shared legal cust can I order tax records
« Reply #21 on: Jan 11, 2007, 12:58:04 PM »
>need them to prove the other party is lieing.
>court compeled other party to provide them and other party did
>however I am 200% they are fake or redone papers

Then find out from the IRS what you need (probably a court order) to get a copy of what they have on record for the other parent.  You could also subpeona records directly from the employer(s).  

 

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