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Author Topic: Mistofelees & Helping Hands Menstruation Issue  (Read 6385 times)

notnew

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Mistofelees & Helping Hands Menstruation Issue
« on: Jan 09, 2007, 12:06:36 PM »
I wanted to get off of Soc's board with this.

This is notnew's wife. I agree, starting your period is more dramatic for some young ladies then for others. However, it is a natural event that nothing can be done to prevent. The mother has adequate time with the child to explain what will happen, how it will feel, and what to do when it happens. I see this as a blatent excuse for mother to steal time from dad and using the menstruation thing to get her way.

Look, when I started my period, I was well informed, it was no big deal. As a matter of fact, I was mortified at how nervous and excited my mother got when I told her and it made me wish I didn't have to tell her. I knew a woman who bought her daugher flowers when she started and then confided to me she was hurt when she saw her daughter had thrown the flowers and card away. I assume the child was embarassed at her mother's over reaction. Every event in a kids life doesn't have to be THE NEXT BIG THING.

My husband's ex has gotten in court over the last two years and uses the starting her period thing for SD as an excuse for every little and big problem that has come up. SD has cramps so she can't go to school very much and when she does make it to school 90% of the time she is late. SD has been on an emotional roller coaster since starting her period and it has been difficult for mom to deal with AND SD doesn't really want to see dad anymore now. Yet there are no medical problems despite repeated tests, etc. Of course, SD has no rules living with mom and gets whatever she asks for so of course she agrees with Mommy Dearest. On and On and On. EXCUSES!

I am sorry. I had SEVERE cramps, heavy bleeding, endometriosis severely that required a hysterectomy and I NEVER used it as an excuse for my failure to do the right thing as a person. BM has used it as an excuse for her failure to parent and part of the justification why custody shouldn't be changed due to her failure to parent. Guess what? It worked!

I am sick of crocodile tears and excuses for events that all women go through being used as excuses for being a piece of crap person and parent. As a woman who enjoys the rights we have had to bust our butts to have, I get HIGHLY offended when this type of behavior is tolerated.

While I do think it would be beneficial for this dad to be sensitive to the events upcoming in his growing daughters life, I agree with Helping hands that discussing with mom in advance and putting a plan of action together is sufficient. No court case is necessary and in my opinion is just a ploy to keep the child away from the father. Clearly an abuse of the system and clearly should NEVER be tolerated by the courts.

I hope I didn't piss anyone off. Just had to sound off.

JMHO.


wysiwyg

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RE: Mistofelees & Helping Hands Menstruation Issue
« Reply #1 on: Jan 09, 2007, 12:45:29 PM »
ok here is my 2 cents.  I agree that no one can predict when their daughter will start menstrating, my daughetrs - one was 16 the other was 12.  Kids get some decent health ed in school and mom can follow up with the daughter to see if she has any questions and concerns.  I think making the child aware and letting the child take the lead on waht and how she feels when the proper time arrives, including having step mom around to help if that relationship is good and comfortable for the child.  I Think letting mom know when that time arrives is a good idea, but for what it is worth, I believe the more someone makes of the issue the more the child will react to waht you want to see, ie when our kids are little we are told that if they fall and get hurt, if you cry or over react so will they - I think it is the same issue, the more you react the more the child will react and I think it is ashame to make a huge ordeal of a perfecly normal body function.  I mean - on the opposite side of the coin should dad file for more time with his son when his voice changes?

Just my  $0.02

mistoffolees

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RE: Mistofelees & Helping Hands Menstruation Issue
« Reply #2 on: Jan 09, 2007, 01:33:28 PM »
First, what's your point in putting my name in the header unless you're itiching for a fight.

Second, all I said is that if menstruation is traumatic for the girl, that it might be reasonable to have her spend a bit more time with her mother during the first months or years. It seems to me that the child's needs should take precedence in this issue and if she's more comfortable talking with the mother about it, the parents should support it.

Your need to complain about your severe cramps and your hatred of 'crocodile tears' does nothing to address the girl's needs.

notnew

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RE: Mistofelees & Helping Hands Menstruation Issue
« Reply #3 on: Jan 09, 2007, 02:16:12 PM »
Why are you so touchy? I simply put yours and Helping hands names in the subject to make it easy to find. I know Socrateaser does not like his board being filled up with posts not relating to the issues he has been asked to address. I've been on this site for over 6 years and try to follow the rules.

Sometimes people just have to agree to disagree. I don't believe there are any of the girls needs to address. The filing is for a "future" event and nobody knows when it will happen.

I don't believe I can see this any other way then as a manipulation by the mother to limit the child's time with her father.

I NEVER said the child's needs shouldn't be addressed. I said that court action is not necessary to do so and I absolutely see no reason for time with the father to be limited via court order to address any issues that may arise when she starts her period.

I do hate whiny women who bitch and complain about issues they should just handle like the rest of us grown up girls. Time to get out your big girl panties and deal with it. I don't ask for special treatment because I'm a woman and I get pissed when others do. It is not right and should not be tolerated. I take care of my responsibilities and if I am having bad cramps and need to take a sick day, so be it. If I don't show up to work because of what ever other issues are going on (drinking, up too late, etc.), I DON"T use my period as an excuse. I believe this mother handling this in this manner is teaching the child the wrong lesson.  I also think that women who become emotional wrecks and sniping witches with pre-menstrual syndrome need to get a grip.


Just my opinion as I stated earlier. You have every right to disagree. You do not have a right to pick a fight and I never intended to do so. So, I think it's best to just let it go and we don't need to pick at each other over it. I apologize to you for anything I may have said that may have offended you in any way and I would certainly hope that you can put it behind us.


HelpingHands

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RE: Mistofelees & Helping Hands Menstruation Issue
« Reply #4 on: Jan 09, 2007, 03:31:34 PM »
I didn't realize that the father had custody at first, but now it makes even more sense why this is a newly raised issue. I agree that I believe it's a ploy to take more time away from the father.

This child has other family members that can teach, assist and comfort her when and if she needs it. And I also agree that the more of a big deal you make out of it, the more of a big deal it will become. It's a fact of life. It's something that happens in a young lady's life. Explain, comfort and teach how to deal with appropriately.

I stand by my post- I see no reason mom and dad can't communicate and be parents to this girl with regards to her menstrual cycle.


mistoffolees

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RE: Mistofelees & Helping Hands Menstruation Issue
« Reply #5 on: Jan 09, 2007, 04:32:16 PM »
That's essentially what I suggested -the parents should be able to resolve it. But if the girl really feels more comfortable dealing with it with the mother rather than the father, it seems to me that the right thing to do is for the father to be a little bit flexible to support the girl's needs - at least for the first year or two.

Ref

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Just when I thought I heard it all...
« Reply #6 on: Jan 09, 2007, 06:56:39 PM »
My goodness, what will come next?

Misto, you get your dukes up so quickly. Try not to rush to fight so much. You have good advice to give, but sometime it seems you are being real hot-headed.

I personally think it is such a male thing to think that having a period is sooooooo traumatic. Please. EVERY woman gets it. we have all pulled through, many of us with little guidence. I can see no reason for any extra flexibility because of this. It is simply a stupid ploy. BM will probably wring her hands and yell "is ANYONE thinking about the CHILDREN????"  She will be the one on the cross but oh well, she will have to come up with something else. That will never fly in court. I will put money on that one.

I was fine with getting it. I jusy didn't want a big deal made out of it. SD was ok with talking to DH and me about it. I agree that if you make a big deal out of it, it becomes a big deal. If you treat it like just another day, that is what it is.

I am looking forward to seeing someone top this one.

Best of luck
Ref

gamma

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RE: Mistofelees & Helping Hands Menstruation Issue
« Reply #7 on: Jan 10, 2007, 10:44:51 AM »
I have been reading these boards for about 3 years, I never post, but today I felt the need to register and post to this.

Oh my this has got to be the most lame excuse I have seen so far. As Ref said, I can't wait to see what tops this one.

I am female, have 2 daughters, big whoop, every female goes through this and many, many have difficulties. But big whoop again, it is life, you have responsibilities and you deal with them. I wish I could skip my responsibilities because it is my time of the month, you continue those responsibilities and when you finish them, you then curl up in bed and act as if your dying. I do have all the bad mood stuff surrounding them, but I deal with it and keep it to myself, I don't expect someone to have to tip toe around me.

Yes it might be a bit uncomfortable for her to deal with dad on this and might even be a bit uncomfortable for dad, they both need to learn to deal with it, it is part of being a female, and every man knows that. I am sure dad would give it his all to try and do what he could with it, or find some other female on his time to help her out.

My one daughter is in a split situation, she has a boy, but if she had a girl and used this excuse to take time from dad, I would feel compelled to tell her off.

mistoffolees

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RE: Just when I thought I heard it all...
« Reply #8 on: Jan 10, 2007, 01:36:55 PM »
Have it your way.

As for 'getting your dukes up', posting someone's name in the header of a list like this is generally considered extremely bad form and is usually perceived as a direct challenge. I simply responded that I didn't think it was appropriate.

As for the rest, my view is simple. I put the kid's needs ahead of the parent's wish for control. If you think your need to control every minute of the child's life and that it's more important to you to 'win' on this issue than it is to respect the child's concerns and comfort, I feel very sorry for you.

I happen to believe that if the parents are reasonably mature, they should be more interested in the CHILD's needs, not their own.


notnew

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Key words - reasonably mature
« Reply #9 on: Jan 10, 2007, 02:57:55 PM »
In most cases where court filings are issued for something like this before it is even happened, I have to assume that we aren't seeing the actions of a reasonably mature adult.

As a matter of fact, in my experience, if you make it to this site searching for help, you aren't dealing with a reasonably mature adult.

I think that this is the issue here more then anything else.

As I said before, time to agree to disagree. We all have different opinions. Doesn't make anybody better than anybody else.

Have a great day!

Ref

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Usually if your name is in the header
« Reply #10 on: Jan 10, 2007, 03:08:38 PM »
it is simply to get your attention to this thread. It is not bad form.

You will see people post names on the header if they know someone as more knowlege in the situation then they do and think that person might give some good advice.

You will see people posting names so they can carry on a conversation from one board to another (like in this case).

I've been around for a long time on this board. Much longer than my current "joined on date" states. I have never know someone to assume they are being attacked because of this besides you.

I really think you are often just ready to fight. Noone is attacking you. There is no need to get defesive and short.

I really do think you give some really good advice, but it seems clouded by a lot of anger.

You will probably construe this as an attack, but it is not. I just want you to know that you don't have to fight all the time on here. It is a pretty safe place, except for the occasional troll.

best wishes,
Ref

mistoffolees

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RE: Usually if your name is in the header
« Reply #11 on: Jan 11, 2007, 12:35:26 PM »
I disagree.  I've been participating in bulletin board discussions since the early 90's. In almost every case, it's considered rude at best and aggressive at worst to start a thread with someone's name in it. Perhaps this board doesn't follow that much, but it's a general Internet truism.

Furthermore, it's silly. The entire point of a bulletin board is to facilitate discussion among EVERYONE who knows something. If you want to discuss it with one person, you address them by email rather than by a public posting. If you want to discuss it publicly, you post the TOPIC and then anyone who wants to discuss it can participate.

Finally, read all the posts in the Socrateaser board and here on this topic. The other person calls anyone who doesn't agree with them names. If you don't buy their way of looking at it, you're stupid, misguided, or just plain wrong. I just don't buy that.

And, no, I don't see your post as an attack because you're not running around telling everyone who disagrees with you that they're stupid.

jilly

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RE: Mistofelees & Helping Hands Menstruation Issue
« Reply #12 on: Jan 11, 2007, 01:17:39 PM »
..."it seems to me that the right thing to do is for the father to be a little bit flexible to support the girl's needs - at least for the first year or two."


So you're saying the Father should miss time with his DD for the first year or two after she starts her peirod??!!!  What kind of sense does that make??

If there's a SM in the house she could help SD just as well as the BM can.  I think it's a lame excuse.

My SD is 9 and she's started asking her Mom questions about the "birds and the bees".  Surprisingly enough, the ex let DH know about this. Even more surprising, she's told SD that should she start her period while at our house to come to me and I'll help her.  If DH's ex ever tried to use this excuse he'd set her straight in a heartbeat.

notnew

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Wait one minute here
« Reply #13 on: Jan 11, 2007, 01:32:53 PM »
You Posted:

"Finally, read all the posts in the Socrateaser board and here on this topic. The other person calls anyone who doesn't agree with them names. If you don't buy their way of looking at it, you're stupid, misguided, or just plain wrong. I just don't buy that."

My response:

I hope the "other person" you are referring to is not me as I have NEVER done any of these things and don't want anyone to get the wrong idea about me. However, sometimes you have to see that bluntness is the best route to go. Believe me, I have had my feelings hurt several times over the years.

Mist: Not everyone on here allows e-mail exchange. I don't and I am VERY cautious about exchanging e-mails with anyone and have only done so with ONE person on here in all these years. I was originally posting under a different name and was "made" by the BM. Not that it amounted to anything, it just felt like an invasion to me and now I am much more cautious to keep my peace of mind.

If you look on Soc's board today, you see he has instructed no more posts on this subject on his board. I know what I am talking about when I say he doesn't want his board filled up with our opinions or input. He just doesn't have time for it and we need to respect that. That is the ONLY reason why I put the names in the subject line - to make it easy to find.

Now, as I have tried to do, I don't want to pick with you over this. I never meant for this to mushroom into a huge conflict.

Tennessee Dad

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I agree with Ref . . . "just when I thought I'd heard it all"
« Reply #14 on: Jan 14, 2007, 05:28:20 PM »
Had to chuckle through this one!!!  

Have three girls myself, and we made it through the first two with no problems (btw, we had joint, every other week).  Youngest is 9 (I have custody), so my time is coming on that one.  And I can almost hear her BM with some lame excuse like this one.  If she taken care of her, she would have still had custody instead of me.  

Now, the other side of the coin.  Can you imagine BM's response if NC-Dad used a similar excuse with sons?  Sort of like, "little Johnny is maturing, and starting to get erections, so I think he needs to be with ME"; you know, Mom, just so I'll be there in case he has a "wet dream""?  Bet that one wouldn't fly with custodial BM, now would it?  What a joke!

Yes, parents should have compassion and understanding for their kids, and give a little extra when they need it.  But legal action, based on a future event seems a little far-fetched to me.  JMHO


wysiwyg

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RE: I agree with Ref . . .
« Reply #15 on: Jan 15, 2007, 01:31:20 PM »
exactly what I said - except I used the "voice changning" for little Johnny.  My dad had custody of me in 1965 and when I started my period no where did anyone even FATHOM this type of situation.  Life moves forward and you know - my daughter is a Sgt in the Army, can you hear it now, I am sorry Mr. President I can not go to Iraq and fight for my country, I have cramps, maybe next week."  Sorry, but while I believe that the child needs compassion, I am certain that both parents are capapble of working on making the daughter comfortable while respecting this time of hers in some sort of remedy, and not making it a public scene to the judicial system that she has started her period, which I am sure would be devastatingly embarassing to her.

mistoffolees

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RE: I agree with Ref . . .
« Reply #16 on: Jan 15, 2007, 02:13:53 PM »
I don't think anyone is suggesting that this should be handled in the courts.

I just think it's sad that so many people are so wrapped up in their own power struggle that they wouldn't even consider letting the girl have more time with her mother if she wished during this time.

Sad, very sad.

Tennessee Dad

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RE: I agree with Ref . . .
« Reply #17 on: Jan 15, 2007, 06:18:22 PM »
Sorry, I guess I didn't say it very tactfully; but, hey, it's the way guys think!  

mistoffolees

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RE: I agree with Ref . . .
« Reply #18 on: Jan 15, 2007, 09:15:34 PM »
Not all guys. Some guys actually care for their daughter's feellings.

Mamacass

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RE: I agree with Ref . . .
« Reply #19 on: Jan 16, 2007, 03:12:45 PM »
So why not compromise.  Let the daughter spend her first period with her mom.  Other than that, life and custody as normal.  

I remember when I started, and yes, the first time it was uncomfortable.  I didn't want to discuss it with anyone, and I didn't want to go anywhere.  I remember we had plans to go out to eat the first night I had my period, and I asked my mom if I could stay home.  Her reaction was that it was a natural part of life, and it shouldn't keep me from doing anything I normally would.  And yes, she made me go to dinner.  It taught me that it wasn't a big deal.  

I also remember my very first day of high school when my period showed up unexpectedly.  I had to call my dad to explain I needed to leave early (I needed to change).  Since my dad couldn't leave work I had to get my brother to give me a ride home.  Yes, this was slightly embarassing for a teenager, but I survived it.  (I live with both my parents, but we always called dad when we had to leave early b/c he had a flexible schedule, mom did not).  And actually my brother was very supportive and I have no doubt that he will be just as supportive of his 3 daughters.  

Anyways, while I may not discuss my period with my dad, I could always ask him to pick up what I needed from the store.  

I don't see that visitation should have to change for 1-2 years because of a period.  It is not that big of a deal.  However, I could see the child wanting to be at her mom's house for the first occurence.  

It sounds to me that BM is grasping at straws to find a reason to get time with her daughter more.  While understandable, she should come up with a better excuse because she sounds a little ridiculous.  


mistoffolees

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RE: I agree with Ref . . .
« Reply #20 on: Jan 16, 2007, 04:19:27 PM »
I never said that things should change for a long time - in fact, I specifically recommended that the time be limited.

I'm simply suggesting that it's an uncomfortable situation for a girl (certainly far worse than a boy's voice changing which was offered as a comparison) and that if the father was any kind of a father at all, he'd be more interested in helping the girl to do what she needs to get through the situation than he apparently is in playing power games.

Mamacass

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RE: I agree with Ref . . .
« Reply #21 on: Jan 16, 2007, 06:19:58 PM »
But going back to the original post, the mother is looking to change a custody order based on the fact that the daughter is going to start menstruation soon.  A period doesn't equate change in circumstance in my mind and I thought to change a custody order there had to be a change in circumstance.  

So while yes, I agree that the father should allow the child what she needs, that doesn't have to be the mother and as you pointed out it doesn't have to be long term.  

However, the mother needs to realize that there are people other than her that can be supportive, including aunts, stepmom or even (if you can believe it) the dad.  Yes, dad's can be supportive too, even in issues like periods (mine sure was).  


Tennessee Dad

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RE: I agree with Ref . . .
« Reply #22 on: Jan 16, 2007, 06:49:29 PM »
Very well put, Mamacass.  That's all I was trying to say, in my not so tactful way.  Change of custody, based on a future event, seems a bit far fetched.  And Fathers can be supportive, and compassionate, as well as Mothers.  JMHO

mistoffolees

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RE: I agree with Ref . . .
« Reply #23 on: Jan 16, 2007, 07:31:47 PM »
That's one side of the issue.

The thing started when the BM asked for a little extra time to support the daughter's dealing with the problem. The BF refused.

We've all agreed that it would be reasonable for the daughter to spend a little more time with the mother if the period was bothering her.

So the mother made a request that everyone thinks is reasonable and the father refused it out of a power game.

Yes, some people go to court over stupid things, but IMHO, the father was being unreasonable from the start and the mother reacted in the only way she could get her reasonable request filled.

If it was important enough to the daughter, going to court wouldn't be unreasonable. But even if going to court was unreasonable, the father's playing a power game.

Mamacass

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RE: I agree with Ref . . .
« Reply #24 on: Jan 16, 2007, 07:44:15 PM »
The original post doesn't state anything about the mom asking dad first, just states that she is filing charges.  So we're not really sure what started the whole thing.
It also mentions that one of the reasons BM doesn't have custody is because of hygiene issues (not keeping daughter clean).  If that's the case, she may not be the best person to teach daughter how to deal with a period.  
Also it sounds as though there's a lot of psychological "warfare" going on at mom's house.  And the father doesn't want temporary time granted, and then turned into permanent time later on b/c it has become the new status quo.  It sounds like dad is trying to keep his daughter from being in a bad situation if he can get her womanly help elsewhere

Or at least that's what I get from the original poster's information.  Either way, we don't really know the whole story, and since the original poster hasn't gotten anymore involved I'm guessing that he may not be keeping up with the posts anymore.  I'm sure if he wants more advuce he'll ask for it.  

On that note, I think I'll also stay out of it.  I'm starting to regret getting involved.  

jilly

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RE: I agree with Ref . . .
« Reply #25 on: Jan 17, 2007, 02:59:38 PM »
>I never said that things should change for a long time - in
>fact, I specifically recommended that the time be limited.
>
Ummm...yes you did:

First quote: "Second, all I said is that if menstruation is traumatic for the girl, that it might be reasonable to have her spend a bit more time with her mother during the first months or years."

Second quote: "it seems to me that the right thing to do is for the father to be a little bit flexible to support the girl's needs - at least for the first year or two."

gumdropgirl

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RE: I agree with Ref . . .
« Reply #26 on: Jan 17, 2007, 03:11:11 PM »
Enough already.

Mistoffolees, you are beating a dead horse.

It sounds to me like this is something Mom is doing without consulting the child. No where does the poster state that the child has asked for more time with Mom, or that she is uncomfortable asking dad about personal issues. For all we know she hates mom, can't talk to her about the matter and has already got the 411 on the big event elsewhere.

If the kid gets her period at Dad's house at whatever point in the distant future the stars have ordained, and SHE EXPRESSLY ASKS at that moment to spend some time with Mom to commemorate the glorious event, then so be it. Dad should let her go over for a couple hours or so, maybe overnight. End of story.

We don't know what the child wants because obviously the child can't post. Therefore we cannot assertain each parent's motives. Game over.

mistoffolees

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RE: I agree with Ref . . .
« Reply #27 on: Jan 17, 2007, 03:34:01 PM »
Seems to me that you just proved my point. I didn't indicate that it should be forever. I indicated that the appropriate time to modify the visitation would be from months to two years. Whether you think that's reasonable or not, it clearly supports my statement that I suggested the time be limited.

I'm not going to say anything else on this. My view is that if the girl wants to spend more time with her mother when she's first getting her period, that the father should support it. Anything else is placing his own power games ahead of the child.

Ref

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Power games put on the wrong parent
« Reply #28 on: Jan 17, 2007, 03:54:53 PM »
I can not see it as a power game on the dad's side but on the mom's. This is the lamest excuse to modify visitation than I ever heard. Months and years of anticipation of a period should be changed? That is just silly.

Attempting to modifying visitation legally for this dumb-ass excuse is one of the biggest power-plays I have ever seen on this board.

I agree that if you change the routine around a kid having her period, you are setting her up to use that as an excuse for the rest of her life. I think maybe if she wants more time with her mom the first time, maybe to get her advice etc, that is fine, but to permenently change it for the next several months to years for this crap?

To me, being a parent is more about life lessons and teaching a child how to be a good adult. How is treating this like anything more than a headcold assist her in learning how to deal with it in the future. It is nice to think of the child's immediate needs but to be a good parent, you have to keep an eye out for the bigger picture, adulthood.

Sorry, this thread is really getting under my skin.

Ref

Windd

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RE: Mistofelees & Helping Hands Menstruation Issue
« Reply #29 on: Jan 17, 2007, 04:55:06 PM »
I have been reading the post but unable to promptly reply as I am not at a public or my own computer.

I realize there are many views on this subject. I would never keep the child from mom as was likewise done to me along with the whole PAS thing. I feel the child should be taught how to deal with this. As I told my daughter, if it happen as midnight while you are with me I want to be prepared. My desire is that her mom has prepared her in case it does happen at night.

There are other females around, aunts, nieces, neighbors, friends, but her mom would be my FIRST choice. I would not mind it her going for the night but anything longer than that I just think is an excuse.  The child does see her mom much more that the standard every other weekend anyway.

Yes there are power struggles and always an ulterior motive. I have had two unfounded CPS reports alleging cuts, bruises, oral injuries and then not any of the found on the child the next day. The child has been told they do not have to do anything I say as I am trying to control them, instructed to keep a journal of anything (only)negative I do, told to lie, steal. I cannot get into the myriad of other issues.

Windd

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RE: Power games put on the wrong parent
« Reply #30 on: Jan 17, 2007, 04:56:09 PM »
I have been reading the post but unable to promptly reply as I am not at a public or my own computer.

I realize there are many views on this subject. I would never keep the child from mom as was likewise done to me along with the whole PAS thing. I feel the child should be taught how to deal with this. As I told my daughter, if it happen as midnight while you are with me I want to be prepared. My desire is that her mom has prepared her in case it does happen at night.

There are other females around, aunts, nieces, neighbors, friends, but her mom would be my FIRST choice. I would not mind it her going for the night but anything longer than that I just think is an excuse.  The child does see her mom much more that the standard every other weekend anyway.

Yes there are power struggles and always an ulterior motive. I have had two unfounded CPS reports alleging cuts, bruises, oral injuries and then not any of the found on the child the next day. The child has been told they do not have to do anything I say as I am trying to control them, instructed to keep a journal of anything (only)negative I do, told to lie, steal. I cannot get into the myriad of other issues.

 

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