I can't see my girls because I am going to marry my ex-sister in law.

[jpl3700]

Help Please,

I have been married for seventeen years and with this person since February 1985.  Over the years I fell out of love with my very soon to be ex-wife.  During the past ten years I fell in love with my sister in law who is now going through a divorce.  We have become best friends over the past decade.  The issue at hand is my two daughters ages 10 and 7.  The girls have been brainwashed repeatedly by the mother, grandmother, grandfather, and brother about me destroying the two families.  Everytime I go to pick up the kids I get an order of protection violation or criminal charges against me.  The judge in New York stated that I can visit the children but, I can't bring them to see thier Aunt who I am dating an will soon marry.  I know this is complicated but if somone has gone through this experience I would appreciate any input.  I love my children unconditionally and I want the same from them.  I know they are confused but brainwashing from the other side does not help.

I did not explain in the first posting that during my marriage both of us have been verbally and physically abusive towards each other over the years.  I left the marriage in 2003 for a period of seven months.  During the seven months we decided to give it a second chance for the children's sake but, soon after the relationship became poison. We have not had any kind of love for over five years and the children notice this regularly.  I did not want my children to live with parents that hate each other.  Some of my family told me to stay with her just for the sake of the children.  Her family is telling the kids that since I love their aunt this is incest.  The aunt has no blood relation to me.

THE AUNT IS NOT MY EX-WIFES SISTER, SHE IS HER BROTHERS EX -WIFE, NO BLOOD RELATIONS.

I just want to see the kids and slowly have them adjust as best as possible.

[dipper]

I think you need to follow whatever the judge says to the letter.   The court is not looking out for your ex in this case, but the children.   From what I have seen, the courts are not pleased when parents immediately start dating and exposing the children to new love interests.  Children need time to adjust to the new situation, even if the adults dont.  In this case, it has to be way more confusing because so much of your children's family life has been disrupted.

In my opinion, your actions so far do not put the children first.  If you follow what the judge says...perhaps offer to do some family counseling with the children.....and after your marriage to the aunt...maybe you can begin to have more time with the children.

You cannot expect the other family members not to be angry about this...you cannot change what they do.  It is unfortunate the children are being exposed, but expected.   What's done is done....but, if you want a relationship with your children, they need to be put first from here on out...

[Jade]

>Help Please,
>
>I have been married for seventeen years.  Over the years I
>fell out of love with my very soon to be ex-wife.  During the
>past ten years I fell in love with my sister in law who is now
>going through a divorce.  We have become best friends over the
>past decade.  The issue at hand is my two daughters ages 10
>and 7.  The girls have been brainwashed repeatedly by the
>mother, grandmother, grandfather, and brother about me
>destroying the two families.  Everytime I go to pick up the
>kids I get an order of protection violation or criminal
>charges against me.  The judge in New York stated that I can
>visit the children but, I can't bring them to see thier Aunt
>who I am dating an will soon marry.  I know this is
>complicated but if somone has gone through this experience I
>would appreciate any input.  I love my children
>unconditionally and I want the same from them.  I know they
>are confused but brainwashing from the other side does not
>help.


Good for the judge for doing what is best for the kids.  Because you and the aunt sure didn't.

Did you really expect your stbx and the family that didn't betray your stbx to be happy that you and your stbx's sister are going to get married?  You and your stbx's sister destroyed two families.  

I wouldn't want my kids around my sister either if she did what your stbx's sister did.  

I really suggest that the kids get into counseling to help them deal with the fact that you left their mother for their aunt.  That has to be very confusing.  

[wendl]

Jade,

"I wouldn't want my kids around my sister either if she did that"

She didn't do anything to harm the kids, and neither did he, you just woulnd't approve of it,  that has nothing to to with what is best for kids. What is best is TWO parents who LOVE them, not how either parents feels about the other new parnter.

As long as the kids are not in danger I don't see the problem (I personally wouldn't date an ex family member but that is my choice) But I wouldn't deny my children their aunt or father either.

As this will be confusing for the kids, yes counseling for everyone not only the kids would be a good idea.

As for visiting your kids, if the aunt loves you, she will for now until you are married stay in the background so you can see the girls.  The judge didn't say you couldn't see the kids, just that your new parnter cannot be around the kids.


**These are my opinions, they are not legal advice**

[backwardsbike]

Kudos Wendl. I agree with you 110%.  The adults are adults adn free to make their won choices.  But yes, it will likely be confusing for the kids and family counsleing with everyone would be helpful.

Would it be at all possible for mom and dad to have mediation with a family therapist who is also a  certified mediator.  We had one and it really helped in my situation.  The mediator/therapsit did therapy with the paretns ADN the kids, made it clear up front that she would not ever appear in court for either side and was a very good mediator on  top of it all.

[Jade]

>Jade,
>
>"I wouldn't want my kids around my sister either if she did
>that"
>
>She didn't do anything to harm the kids, and neither did he,
>you just woulnd't approve of it,  that has nothing to to with
>what is best for kids. What is best is TWO parents who LOVE
>them, not how either parents feels about the other new
>parnter.
>
>As long as the kids are not in danger I don't see the problem
>(I personally wouldn't date an ex family member but that is my
>choice) But I wouldn't deny my children their aunt or father
>either.
>
>As this will be confusing for the kids, yes counseling for
>everyone not only the kids would be a good idea.
>
>As for visiting your kids, if the aunt loves you, she will for
>now until you are married stay in the background so you can
>see the girls.  The judge didn't say you couldn't see the
>kids, just that your new parnter cannot be around the kids.
>
>
>**These are my opinions, they are not legal advice**

Both the aunt and father DID do harm to the children.  

First, the aunt had an affair with their father while he was still living with their mother.  She could have said no, she's my sister, I am the aunt to these kids.  I won't hurt them that way.  And walked away.  She wouldn't have broken up two families by doing that.

She didn't.

Second, he could have worked on his marriage rather than have an affair.  Or he could have chosen to have an affair (which would have still been harmful to his children) with someone that they weren't related to.  He wouldn't have broken up both families by doing that.  

Having their father planning to marry their aunt is not something that the children should have to deal with right now.  Of course, they should still see their father.  But not with other woman around.  He is still married.  

[escape2paradise]

I agree with you Jade.  What is this mentality that people should be able to do whatever they want as long as it feels good to them?  To heck with how it affect others or gosh forbid their own children.  As long as they are consenting adults, then so be it everyone else should just have to deal.  It's a crock of bull!  People put your kids first!  Being a parent is a selfless job not a selfish job.  

These self centered types are the same ones who sit around in their old age wondering why their own kids are too damn selfish to give a rats you know what about them.  Why they are too busy to come visit, why they don't have time to take them to a Dr. appt. For all you selfish parents, guess where your kids learned this non caring attitude! Here's a hint, LOOK in the MIRROR!  Duhh!

[Davy]

I don't condone in anyway the father and the aunt's behavior.  

This poster was providing some background in an expanatory manner in order to get advice concerning the children as follows :

************************************************************

The issue at hand is my two daughters ages 10 and 7. The girls have been brainwashed repeatedly by the mother, grandmother, grandfather, and brother about me destroying the two families. Everytime I go to pick up the kids I get an order of protection violation or criminal charges against me.  

I know they are confused but brainwashing from the other side does not help.

Her family is telling the kids that since I love their aunt this is incest. The aunt has no blood relation to me.

************************************************************

This is the crux of this post.  The emotional/psychological damage to the children brought on by the family members FAR OUTWEIGHTS the original act of the father and the aunt.

In my opinion, there is good cause for the father/aunt to file an immediate RESTRAINING ORDER preventing these dimwits from discussing or /commenting on the situation with the children.  

It may even rise to the level of the children's removal from these people and supervised visitation.  This is a form of child abuse.

[Jade]

>I don't condone in anyway the father and the aunt's behavior.
>
>
>This poster was providing some background in an expanatory
>manner in order to get advice concerning the children as
>follows :
>
>************************************************************
>
>The issue at hand is my two daughters ages 10 and 7. The girls
>have been brainwashed repeatedly by the mother, grandmother,
>grandfather, and brother about me destroying the two families.
>Everytime I go to pick up the kids I get an order of
>protection violation or criminal charges against me.  
>
>I know they are confused but brainwashing from the other side
>does not help.
>
>Her family is telling the kids that since I love their aunt
>this is incest. The aunt has no blood relation to me.
>
>************************************************************
>
>This is the crux of this post.  The emotional/psychological
>damage to the children brought on by the family members FAR
>OUTWEIGHTS the original act of the father and the aunt.
>
>In my opinion, there is good cause for the father/aunt to file
>an immediate RESTRAINING ORDER preventing these dimwits from
>discussing or /commenting on the situation with the children.
>
>
>It may even rise to the level of the children's removal from
>these people and supervised visitation.  This is a form of
>child abuse.

I agree that the adults shouldn't be discussing it with the kids in the detail that they may be.    

As for removing the children from these people, if that is the case, I don't think the father should get them at this time.  

What he and the aunt did is not outweighed by what the other family members are doing.  It is equal to what they are doing.  

I feel sorry for those kids.  Because nobody is putting them first.  

[krazyfamily_6]

It sounds to  me like the mother and her family in this situation are taking THEIR hurt and anger out by using the children as pawns.  

It is an unfortunate thing that happened but the kids should not be used in this way.  The mother needs to put the kids first and encourage a relationship between the children and their father.  

If the father is going to marry the aunt then that is just the way it is going to be.  Nobody can change what they did but is it fair to keep the children away for the rest of their lives because the mother is still hurt and angry?

[escape2paradise]

If his statements are true then I agree, however, how does he know the kids are being brainwashed.  Is he just assuming because they are mad at him. They may just be mad and need time to come to grips with what's happened in their family.  I think all these people need some counseling!

[Jade]

>It sounds to  me like the mother and her family in this
>situation are taking THEIR hurt and anger out by using the
>children as pawns.  
>
>It is an unfortunate thing that happened but the kids should
>not be used in this way.  The mother needs to put the kids
>first and encourage a relationship between the children and
>their father.  
>
>If the father is going to marry the aunt then that is just the
>way it is going to be.  Nobody can change what they did but is
>it fair to keep the children away for the rest of their lives
>because the mother is still hurt and angry?


Who said anything about keeping the kids away from the father?  

The other woman should be kept away from them at this time.  

If they do marry (and they already have a lot going against them), obviously, the other woman will be around them.  But right now, he is married to their mother, not the other woman.

The judges said that the father can see the kids, just not with the other woman there.

[Davy]

>I agree that the adults shouldn't be discussing it with the kids in the >detail that they may be.

Poster said "brainwashing repeately" not "discussing"

>As for removing the children from these people, if that is the case, I >don't think the father should get them at this time.

Had children been with the father from the beginning there would not be any protection order violations or criminal charges when the other parent arrives to pick up the children.  Children belong with a parent not the government or a non-parent.  The mother provides the children with a dysfunctional  environment.


>What he and the aunt did is not outweighed by what the other family >members are doing. It is equal to what they are doing.

The father and former brother-in-laws stbx are legally seperated and discreetly dating.  They are not having "swinging from the chanderler sex" in front of the kids nor did I see admitting to adultry by either.  What the mother and family is doing sucks the very life from the kids with long lasting effects.

>I feel sorry for those kids. Because nobody is putting them first.

The father posted here for encouragement and support with a focus on finding help for the children.  The mother and family .. well see all of the above.

I posted with suggestions (restraint/removal) that could/would result in a positive impact on the children without disparaging remarks toward either parent.  

Could you please do the same to maintain one of the primary reasons this board exists.

[Jade]

>>I agree that the adults shouldn't be discussing it with the
>kids in the >detail that they may be.
>
>Poster said "brainwashing repeately" not "discussing"


My father accused my mother of "brainwashing" us kids.  Yet, he was the only one doing any badmouthing.  My mother refrained from talking about the divorce.  

You will have to excuse me if I am skeptical.  The father could be lying.  Or assuming.


>
>>As for removing the children from these people, if that is
>the case, I >don't think the father should get them at this
>time.
>
>Had children been with the father from the beginning there
>would not be any protection order violations or criminal
>charges when the other parent arrives to pick up the children.
> Children belong with a parent not the government or a
>non-parent.  The mother provides the children with a
>dysfunctional  environment.

If what the poster is saying is true, then BOTH parents provide a dysfunctional environment.  


>
>
>>What he and the aunt did is not outweighed by what the other
>family >members are doing. It is equal to what they are doing.
>
>
>The father and former brother-in-laws stbx are legally
>seperated and discreetly dating.  They are not having
>"swinging from the chanderler sex" in front of the kids nor
>did I see admitting to adultry by either.  What the mother and
>family is doing sucks the very life from the kids with long
>lasting effects.

What the father did sucks the very life from the kids with long lasting effects.  

The fact is that he left his wife for her sister.  You can defend that all you want, but he did hurt the kids by his actions.  

And, no, the mother isn't doing any better IF what he is saying is true.



>
>>I feel sorry for those kids. Because nobody is putting them
>first.
>
>The father posted here for encouragement and support with a
>focus on finding help for the children.  The mother and family
>.. well see all of the above.

Again, you only have his word for it.  It could be that the kids are old enough to understand that dad left them for aunt so and so.  And are very pissed about it.  The mother may not be saying anything at all to the kids about what the father and her sister did.


>
>I posted with suggestions (restraint/removal) that could/would
>result in a positive impact on the children without
>disparaging remarks toward either parent.  
>
>Could you please do the same to maintain one of the primary
>reasons this board exists.

And I posted that I don't think the father should have them, either.  If what he is saying is true, neither parent is putting the kids first.

[jpl3700]

I am not dating my wifes sister.  I am dating my wifes brother's ex-wife.  My children have expressed to me that the uncle  my wifes brother calls me very bad things and tells my children I do not love them.  My ex-mother in law tells my children your daddy does not love you. My ex-wife tells the children daddy does not love you anymore.  I have been brought to court for threats against my ex-brother in laws life.  I would not waste my life threatening anyone.  Life is short we are here for a brief visit.   All I want is to be happy.  I tried to make my marriage work.  I spent 22 years of my life with the same woman.  I posted here for help not to be judged.  God will judge me in his time.  I am not perfect, but I have finally found my best friend and love of my life.  My ex-brother in laws relationship with his wife is and was over; as was mine before we started our friendship.  I will see my children because, I have been to court since my original post and the judge stated that "who I date or who my ex-wife dates is our own business and not the courts".  The children have been and are still in therapy.     Some people go an entire lifetime married to someone they do't even like anymore just for the children.  I will not live my life without love.  I will love my children until the day I die.  Post opinions, I have no problem but, if you live in a glass house please do not throw stones at me.  PS. my childrens mother is a Great mom and always will be. I'm just not in love with her.

[mistoffolees]

Please take the comments here with a huge grain of salt. There are people here who have axes to grind and there's nothing you can say which will make the happy. On the other side, there are people who post here with sob stories and it comes out over the next few days that they're leaving out half the story (or more). If you take much of what's written here too seriously, you're going to get hurt.

I'm inclined to agree with the judge. Who you date is not the court's business. While I agree with limitations like no overnight guests when there are children in the house, I don't think it's the court's job to tell you who you can or can not date. I also agree that there's nothing partciuarly heinous about dating your ex-brother in law's ex-wife. If all the adults involved had acted with maturity and respect for the kids, I don't think most kids are going to be hurt by that situation.

The problem is that you're now in a no-win situation. You've got people all over the place alienating you from your kids (taking your statements at face value) and you are also facing fabricated charges of making threats. Your first focus needs to be ending the war. I know you may never have a great relationship with everyone involved, but there IS a chance to settle things down from WWIII levels to 'civil when we need to be' or even better. Given the acrimony involved, you will probably want to keep your new gf away until the dust settles. Not because it's right nor because you should have to, but simply because it's the practical thing to do right now to help settle things down. Later you can worry about how you're going to re-introduce her to the family.

It's unfortunate that you appear to be trying to be reasonable "Great mom and always will be. I'm just not in love with her". Unfortunately, there are people for whom that's not a possibility. I feel the same way about my ex some times. I can work with her all the time, but she regularly retreats into the 'attack and destroy' mode and I'm left trying to pick up the pieces.

Good luck.

[krazyfamily_6]

The OP has stated that it was the ex brother in law's ex wife, not the wife's sister.

He also states that the kids have been in counseling.  If what the poster is saying is true, it's the mother who is telling the kids that their father does not love them anymore and the rest of her family is not saying much better things to them.  Which is why I stated that the mother is trying to push her anger and hurt onto the kids and that is NOT right.  

The OP also states that both relationships were over before he started the friendship with this woman.  

I also agree that WHO the OP dates is really none of the courts business unless she is a sexual predator, child molester.........you get the idea.  

The OP even says that the kid's mother is a great mom........doesn't sound like he is the one doing the bashing here.

It is also not our place to judge this man and his choices.

[wendl]

Unfortunately there are some people here who are not opened minded.

Sounds like their is some PAS going on w/ the family telling the kids these thing that you do not love them.  You need to re-enforce to them how much you love them etc.

I am glad the judge acted as he did, many judges probably wouldn't.

Keep fighting for your kids and to be happy.  

Best wishes to you

**These are my opinions, they are not legal advice**