Non-Custodial Mom Threatening Court, WTF?

[Dilbert2000]

I've been the custodial parent of my son since he was 3 yrs old, full legal, full physical.  My Ex has had summer visitation and alternating major holidays for the past nine years.  We fight everytime we talk on the phone, so email and snail mail is the norm.

My son has not missed a single visitation in nine years, where I have driven miles, stayed in hotels, and have even been paying half the unaccompanied minor fee for flights out of state for visitation.

I think that custodial parents that poison their kids against the non-custodial parents are scum-bags, so I have always done my best to do the right thing, even going above and beyond the visitation requirements to assist in my son having a good relationship with my ex.

But there have been scheduling conflicts over the years, where different schools have different holiday times, not to mention work schedules, and flight time requirements for visitation...to make a long story short, there have been times where her time hasn't been the full summer vacation, nor the entire Christmas holiday, and apparently she feels cheated.

Instead of talking about it and trying to come to an understanding, she has gone out and purchased tickets for my son's visit, with no consultation with me, didn't even tell me the dates/times (I had to blatantly ask) and expects me to just toe the line.

I think my being understanding in the past is coming around to bite me on the ass...I mean, I haven't even set up a child support order, just taking her word that she has been setting up a trust fund for him when he is ready for college.

So I tell her thats not going to work, that there has to be some foreknowledge and schedule checks before tickets are bought, and she slaps me with the "Well lets just go to court".

So, I either do what she says (which I can kind of understand) and see the future visitation become somekind of "Do this or else" nightmare, or do court now, get the visitation adjusted so its crystal clear, and get a support order established so there is no BS down the road.

I'm not trying to screw her out of seeing my son, I'm not using a support order as some kind of threat (I'll let the courts decide that one) but I can't just bend over and take this without some kind of mutual understanding.  It's wierd, up to now things have been generally ok, but last year she started making comments on how she wants my son to go live with her full time, and now this.

It sounds like a set-up to me, and I'd rather head this off now, then let this crap snowball.

Any ideas?

[Stepmomnow]

My suggestion is to go ahead and go back to court to get visitation set in stone.  It sounds as if she does not have any chance of getting custody changed, so it will be easier over the years if you all have complete certainty about when your son will see his mom and how he will get there and back.

[Kitty C.]

I'm not kidding!  I am assuming that since your son is with you, your state has jurisdiction, thus any court proceedings will be where YOU  live, not where she lives, thus requiring her to pay extra for travel, let alona an atty.  She would also have to hire an atty. locally as well.

But that is only dependent upon whether she can actually get the case to court to begin with.  She MUST prove a 'significant change in circumstance' to warrant proceeding with a modification of the original order......much easier said than done.  Something critical has to have affected your son that a modification would be of benefit to HIM, not to you or your ex.

Let her file.  Check your copy of the petition (OSC) when you receive it (if she makes it that far........it's possible an atty. may tell her she's pissing in the wind!) and see what her 'reasons for modification' are (and make sure you have an atty. waiting), then when she doesn't prove it, have your atty. file for dismissal based on her not meeting the requirements and ask for atty. fees and court costs as well.  The WHOLE thing will be a very expensive lesson to her in NOT bucking the system.  That's not to say that you won't eventually have to show up in court, but even so, if it goes your way, make DAMN sure you ask for atty. fees and court costs.  If she want to play, she has to pay.

Be that as it may, I am VERY familiar in LD visitations, as DS did just that from IA to CA for about 10 years.  In the school district (rural) we're in, they never have and never will have 'spring break.'   At the most, they will have a 3-4 day weekend over Easter.....if it's not taken up by snow day make-ups!  At our hearing, DS's dad asked for spring break, but I told the judge that the school district does NOT have it.  Then the ex said that if he can't have DS for spring break, he wants him for an extra week in the summer.  I just couldn't get it thru his head that there was NO spring break to negotiate with in the first place!  And the summer vacation we worked out (graduated) eventually gave him all summer anyway, so his argument was moot.

DS went to CA every summer, all summer, from one week after school was out to one week before school started.  We never had a problem with summer, and after the first 2 years, I let his dad make the arrangements, the only thing I had to do was give him dates.  Once he got on line and had access to the school calendar himself, he would just call to confirm.  It was cheaper to fly on weekends, so we always agreed on the first weekend after or before the 'one week'.

The problems we would run into was at Christmas, which was an every other year thing.  Getting dates of decent ticket pricing and school vacation to meet was often tricky.  Then when you add potentially hazardous traveling conditions, it could get dicey!  There were a few times that I took DS out of school for a day or two, either at the beginning or end of X-mas vacation, in order to make the right connections safely (for us) and economically (for his dad), but in the long run, it was worth it for DS.

Two years ago, his dad died of cancer.  Even tho his dad always paid his airfare (we would split the cost of the UAM fees), I'd willingly pay his tickets if he could just have his dad in his life.  But even tho our separation was volatile, we eventually were able to work things out between us, for the sake of our son.  

It's obvious, in your case, that your ex hasn't been able to get that far.  You are being MORE than reasonable in asking that schedules be agreed upon BEFORE tickets are purchased.  She may be bluffing, so this is an opportunity to stick what is reasonable and see what she does.  The only way you'll know is if you get served with the papers.  But understand that the ball is in HER court to prove why the case should be before the court to begin with.  In the meantime, talk to your atty., preferably theone you used in the original custody case, just so he/she has a heads-up on the situation and can answer promptly.  We've got holidays coming up shortly and this will need to be worked out soon.

If she does get it to court, and you happen to work out a schedule for this coming X-mas, emphasize the point to the judge that it's exactly this type of discussion that needs to go on in order to come to an agreement on schedules, and that is exactly what you've been trying to do.

Let us know if anything happens!

[Dilbert2000]

Thanks for the support folks!  I thought I was being reasonable, and it's nice to hear from others when it comes to "reality-checks"...without outside views, tunnel-vision becomes a problem.

I'm making sure that the county my son and I live in has jurisdiction, as the initial decree was made in another state, and my Ex lives in another state entirely.  Lots of moving around, but we have been settled here for 5 years or so.  So that should be a no-brainer.  Having the decree registered at the courthouse here should have been one of the first things I did when we moved here, but like a fool I never thought it would become an issue.  I have been reading over the FAQ's, and it seems that there are no grounds to get the custody changed, nor is there any reason for clarification of visitation other than changing the wording to reflect his being in 6th grade now, instead of the time designation before he started school.

In your opinion, should I get "pissy" and try to get the visitation changed to more reasonable times?  As it stands now, he goes there for the whole summer and alternating major holidays.  A re-adjustment time is neccesary, as there is no enforced bedtime, nor hygene requirements at my ex's place.  Green teeth, headlice, and dirty clothes are the norm when he comes back.  I find a week to be a good time-frame to get him back on track and ready for school.

My ex is stating that she wants him the day after school lets out, and will return him 3 days prior to school starting.  While if I was in her shoes, I would want as much time as possible as well, it just doesn't work in practice.  It's only a matter of a few days, but as he gets older there will be pre-registration, school sports, etc to take into consideration...

Here is a cut and pase of what she sent me (looks like an online form was used)

Please refer to paragraph (a.) under the visitation section. Because I have yielded to your schedule every time in the past, I have lost much of my rightful time with xxxx. That is not going to happen anymore. I feel that following the letter of our custody settlement is the only way to avoid this in the future. It is in xxxx's best interest to be with me as much as legally possible. So, in regard to this, rather than having only alternating Christmas', I will also be sending for her next Thanksgiving as per his school schedule. Next summer he will also be sent for the day after he is released from school and sent back no more than 3 days before his re-entry. If there is a conflict in your schedule with his school vacation schedule, please contact me 6 months before the arrival date. If there is a further question of what dates xxxx will be traveling on, please refer to the posted calendar on his school's website. If an unforeseen emergency occurs preventing him from following his school schedule, allowances can be made to change that schedule. If there is a problem with the current layout of our custody agreement, please direct me to your legal representation so we can have the terms renegotiated. Otherwise, I will expect to see xxxx at the airport on the date already reserved for his flight as per his school schedule.

The way I'm looking at this is if she wants to open this can of worms, so be it.  I don't want to be accused of being in contempt of a court order, and don't want to be perceived as interferring with visitation, but I just don't see how her actions can be perceived as anything other than antagonistic.  Maybe this is a blessing in disguise, as it will put us back in court (something I hate) but for the right reasons, and will get some concrete decisions made as to my sons next eight years of visitation.

Any more ideas?

[Peanutsdad]

Exactly what does the court order say?

What I would suggest, is follow it to the letter for now. My own attorney has always stressed to me, the court order is the fall back when parents cant agree.


I would further suggest you file in your state for child support. This can be done typically thru the AG office of equilivent child support enforcement CSE.

That does not require an attorney nor going to court per se.

[Kitty C.]

......let her.  She's going to have to do it in your jurisdiction anyway.

Mind you, our custody agreement was set over TEN years ago, but I have found that, with all summer long visitations, one week after school is out to one week before school starts is becoming the norm.  Understand one thing, tho.  If it does not SPECIFICALLY say the day after school's out to 3 days before school starts, she doesn't have a leg to stand on, since that is NOT in the order.  You can follow the 'letter of the order' all you want to, but if you don't have specifc dates/times, it's up for interpretation by either side.  If you could post exactly what your CO says about visitation, so that we can be certain.

Just remember that what you're asking for is NOT out of line.  I know the routine.  DS was diagnosed with ADHD in 2nd grade, but would come back home from CA with more than half his meds and wound tighter than an eight day clock.  It took a MINIMUM of a week just to get him back into a routine to get him ready for school! Plus, it's the only time I had to get him in for his medical, dental, and eye check-ups as well.  And that can be a nutsy time to try to schedule those!  If she's not willing to agree to that, SHE is the one being inflexible and unreasonable.

So that week after school was out was the ONLY time I had with DS all summer, practically.   Like I said, it's become a standard now.  Our judge was the one who suggested it!

There's something I think is funny....and you mentioned that it might have come from a form.....but she keeps going back and forth between 'him' and her'...........doesn't she know what sex her child is????  :+

What I suggest you do is write out a VERY specific visitation plan, including dates of when both parents have to 'agree' to the upcoming travel schedule for that particular visitation time.  There are samples here on this site, but make sure you leave NO detail out.  She sounds like someone who will exploit any loophole she can find.  Here's some ideas:

- Schedules must be agreed upon by both parents no later than 30 days before any visitation time, and must include travel schedules to and from NCP's residence.

- Summer visitation to commence on the first Saturday after one week after school is out to the first Sunday after one week prior to start of the next school year.

- Thanksgiving and Spring Break visitation will be given to the NCP on every even-numbered year and to the CP every odd-numbered year.

- Christmas visitation will be given to the NCP every odd-numbered year and to the CP every even-numbered year.

- Child is to travel the following day after school is out for holidays only, unless subject to change because of weather, and must be back for school the day before school is back in session, no later than 6 pm.  (Gives time for a decent night's sleep before re-starting school.)

- Each parent will pay for the UAM fees for the child's departure, CP at beginning of visitation, NCP at the end.  Otherwise, NCP is responsible for all travel costs of child.  (She was the one who moved away, right?  Then it's up to her.)   Once child reaches age of no longer requiring UAM assistance, it will be jointly agreed upon by the parents if they will continue it voluntarily.  (Right now, it is voluntary I believe after the age of 13.)

- In the case of bad weather and travel delays, either parent will notify the other parent  IMMEDIATELY and jointly they will agree to whatever arrangements weather will alllow.

- If securing cost-effective travel (taking into consideration black-out dates for holiday travel) requires that child be absent from school, only ONE day will be allowed for this per each visitation.  Delays for weather are not included in this.

Get what I'm getting at here?   Make it SPECIFIC.  I'm sure that I'm leaving some stuff out and I only put in that bit about weather because we've had to deal with that.  DS's flight from Denver was cancelled after New Year's one time, so they wouldn't even let him leave Sacramento.  Unfortunately, we were already on our way to Omaha (cheapest and easiest place to fly in and out of, tho it's a 4 hour drive one way for us), so we stayed overnight in Des Moines and DH and I both lost a day of work and DS lost a day of school.  The drive there, on mostly ice and in 4WD, was stressful enough, LOL!

If you need anything else, just holler!

[Dilbert2000]

"alternating major holidays, Christmas, Thanksgiving and Easter, to
correspond with the vacation period setforth in the school district
where the child resides, said period is to be divided equally between
the parties; and

summer visitation for three months during the summer"

Please keep in mind that I was awarded sole legal and physical custody when my son was almost three years old, so the above was academic at the time.  As it is written, it's pretty vague as to the "said period is to be divided equally between the parties"...an attorney at my office said (to her) it looked like I could claim half the scheduled visitation, despite it being alternating ie, even with my son scheduled to go to my Ex's for Christmas, I would get half that time, in addition to the regular time at my home with me.  That doesn't sound right to me, but there it is.

My Ex and I have been going by those two paragraphs for nine years now, with the reality of summer vacation only being 2.5 months, and her only really visiting with my son on alternating Christmas', as the expense of flying him out for Thanksgiving has been prohibitive.

And your advice as to setting up a support order through the AG office is being done as I type this.  Looks like they would be incharge of it anyway, as it would be across state lines.  It's amazing what a sucker I have been all these years...to be honest, I was so damn happy to have custody at the end of a lousy divorce, being the first man to have done so in that county, I counted my blessings and moved on.

Thanks for the advice and information folks,  I appreciate it.

[Kitty C.]

Well, I really hate to say thins, but if she pushes the issue this time, I'm afraid you'll be back in court.  But that's not necessarily a bad thing.  Your order is WAY too damn vague and you really need to get it clarified, now that he's in school.  But her retort that she can get him on specific days doesn't hold any water in the CO, either.

If you have to, go to court and get it specified.  I'm not sure about CS right now, as she will only look on that as retaliation on your part.  I'd be more concerned about getting visitation well defined than CS, but that's just me.

[gipsy]

Here's whats really wierd , Some people try to throw there weight around , Trust me been there done that , But heres My deal , My parenting plan say's for  dispute resolution , That before returning to court we must go to ,, Pierce county center for dispute resolution , SOOO ! does your plan say thaT . I don't know all the legals on that, But I would read your plan before I got all excited , Secondly , My question is , Are you just pissed because She trying to assert that It will be Her way or else? Thats the perfect recipe for atty's to make money , So does this sechedule interfere with His school schedule ? Or any really important schedule ? Can the schedule be fixed , I am a non custodial and , Of course have to go By the parenting plan , If you can ignore the stupidity exhibited , And Let you son go , Maybe she does have some wierd problem , But if it is limited to dates of visits, just think how great it is that you don't live together , Does your son care About the dates , Yeah It sucks But at least she bought the tickets ,If there really is some problem other than who gets to be a big B" then let her file and if your parenting plan say's that you have to go to dispute resolution then the judge may just throw it out any way < Call an atty.. Then if not Let her file and then just  respond with a modification that say's she has to give A certain amount of notice , My plan say's I have to give My notice of vacation like five months ahead , SOOOO Like just go straighten the issues out ,

[Imom]

There is a interstate parenting plan on this site (review it)...We to have long distance although my ss does not travel by air, we were all drive the 9 hour one way trip (but now have agreed to meet half way).  Our bm gets one week after school until one week before school starts. Any anytime ss is out of school longer then three days. Visitation is reasonable and e/o x-mas vaction. My dh and bm have joint legal and shared physical though. Their co has nothinng to the effect on pick up day/times, sharing info, etc. and after almost 6 years it has been a pain. We are right no between bm and I making an amendment to the co to fix these issues. It got to the point before we were meeting that she wanted us to pick up ss at 5pm the day before school resumed then drive 9-10 hours to get him home and to school  that day. Um hello.....

[Louisiana]

YOUR SON.  Last time I looked one person, especially a man, could not have a child by himself.  She is missing out on so much of this much loved childs life.  Could you live with the schedule she has?  Put yourself in her shoes the next time you communicate with her.  I personally would go insane if I had that kind of schedule to see my babies.( they are 11 and up)  You really should not let there be any excuse.  She should have a copy of the school calendar.  In my opinion a child that spends that little time with a parent should be with them all non school holidays.  This is a gift to your child not her.  
We will be transfered eight hrs away soon and I hope that my ex will accept such an arrangement.  But he may not.  He now has the kids three days a week.  I expect to have to go to court even offering him all I possible could.

[LizaLou1]

I agree that the NCP should see their child as much as possible.  However, its not the father's fault she moved away.  She should move back, if she wants to see the boy more.

LizaLou