Thoughts of Relocation back to UK/where can I bring child during visitation/what did judge mean?

[416021va]

Summary for questions 1 & 2 below:

My present State is Virginia, but child resides in Florida.

I have been remarried for several years and spouse is a UK citizen with permanent residency status in the US. I am a US citizen with permanent residency status in the UK.

Our family consists of 2 children and my spouse. One child is the 6 year old who resides in Florida for whom I am the NCP. The other child is 2 year old and resides with my spouse and I in the State of Virginia and is a dual US/UK citizen.

During the year 2004 my spouse and I decided to relocate back to the UK for the purpose of obtaining a better life. CP controlled when and where we saw our 6 year old child when we resided back in the State of Florida, which was contrary to the court order. CP would threaten me if I saw child. Spouse and I saw no point in remaining in the US as our hands were tied at that point.

I am not being vendictive, I am just being honest.

Spouse and I remained in the UK for 13 months and progressed reasonably well there, but one thing was missing there: my 6 year old child.

After being very depressed for some time and not believeing that we could ever have the child see us, we decided to return to the State of Florida.

Our return to the State of Florida was short lived. Due to my apparent earning capacity in that State, we had to leave Florida within several months and say goodbye to my 6 year old again.

After relocating to Virginia, the majority of our financial troubles ceased and we are doing better than we ever have.

However, I do realize that the majority of our family is in the UK.

I also believe that the potential to have the child visit with me on UK soil was always there, but at that time I just didn't know enough about it.

Additionally, the fact that I am in another State and could not succeed in the State of Florida makes me feel like I might as well be in a different country.

Finally, the UK shares pretty strong bi-lateral ties with the US anyways and is also bound by the Hague convention.

The only problem I see is that there is an ocean between us and that the CP stipulated visitation in Virginia for child only when I filed a petition to modify vistiation. I don't know if the CP would be as willing to stipulate on a move to the UK.

My question is as follows:

1) Could I see my child in the UK just as much as I would by living in the State of Virginia?

2) Could a judge order that transportation costs be split if we leave to the UK?

Summary for questions 3,4,5,6,7, & 8  below:

I would like to take my child outside of Virginia during visitation but I have concerns after the way I drafted my Stipulation. I am not sure that it needs to be modified, but do not want CP to get me arrested should I take him outside of the State of Virginia. I am only 20 miles away from DC and Maryland, and not very far from several other States. The child has a million things to do. I would also like to take the child to NYC to see his family at some point in time and even to the UK.

CP will probably oppose me at their capacity even if I take the child into DC.

In the past, I have stipulated in writing and signed by a judge for CP to take the child to South America. Said country in South America is not bound by Hague convention, but I still let CP do it. Additionally CP takes child to said country in South America without notifying me at times, but sometimes elects to tell me.

The way I drafted the stipulation worries me (stipulation is in effect and has been signed by a judge). Stipulation was signed by judge 3 years after a final judgement of dissolution of marriage was entered which says nothing about anyone giving or asking anyone permission during trips.

The visitation portions perpetually read as follows (you can fill in the blanks for the other parts of the year because that is how it is worded for other parts):

a) Allow Visitation for child with NCP in the State of Virginia during the Summer each and every year. Visitation will begin 1 week after normal school ends and terminate 23 days thereafter.

My questions are as follows:

3) Can I take the child to other States for a trip without CP's permission?

4) Can I take the child to other States/DC for a trip if I give CP notice, and the CP still says that they do not approve?

5) Can I take the child to the UK for a trip without CP's permission?

6) Can I take the child to the UK for a trip if I give CP notice, and the CP still says that they do not approve?

7) If the answer to enough of the above questions is "no", then must I file a petition to modify visitation if the CP is unwilling to stipulate to any of this?

8) Can CP take the child to another State/Country for a trip without notifying me and/or giving me consent?

Summary for question 9 & 10:

Final judgement of dissolution of marriage was drafted in 2002 when I resided in the State of Florida. In 2005 CP and I entered a stipulation to modify visitation which was signed by a judge and allowed visitation for child in the State of Virginia.

Along with the judge's signature. Judge specified that modification supercedes final judgement of dissolution of marriage "to the extent of any conflict".

My question is as follows:

9) Does this mean that the final judgement of dissolution of marriage is no longer valid, or does it mean that the final judgement of dissolution of marriage is superceded by the stipulation only when conflict arises?

10) If it means that the final judgement of dissolution of marriage is no longer valid, then what about matters that are not covered in the stipulation?

Thanks SOC!

[socrateaser]

>My question is as follows:
>
>1) Could I see my child in the UK just as much as I would by
>living in the State of Virginia?

I don't understand this question. If you're asking whether the court would grant you the same amount of time with the child while living in the UK vis-a-vis VA or FL, then I don't know -- it's up to the judge. More than likely, however, a court will not approve permitting the child's visiting in a foreign nation, no matter how close the ties are, because as a practical matter enforcement of the child's return should you chose to not transport the child back to the U.S. is nearly impossible -- despite cooperation and international law.

>2) Could a judge order that transportation costs be split if
>we leave to the UK?

"Could?" Yes. Is it likely? No. You're the one making the move, so you're creating the expense. Why should the other parent pay for the cost created by you? Answer: the court won't order you reimbursed.

>Summary for questions 3,4,5,6,7, & 8  below:
>
>I would like to take my child outside of Virginia during
>visitation but I have concerns after the way I drafted my
>Stipulation. I am not sure that it needs to be modified, but
>do not want CP to get me arrested should I take him outside of
>the State of Virginia. I am only 20 miles away from DC and
>Maryland, and not very far from several other States. The
>child has a million things to do. I would also like to take
>the child to NYC to see his family at some point in time and
>even to the UK.
>
>CP will probably oppose me at their capacity even if I take
>the child into DC.
>
>In the past, I have stipulated in writing and signed by a
>judge for CP to take the child to South America. Said country
>in South America is not bound by Hague convention, but I still
>let CP do it. Additionally CP takes child to said country in
>South America without notifying me at times, but sometimes
>elects to tell me.
>
>The way I drafted the stipulation worries me (stipulation is
>in effect and has been signed by a judge). Stipulation was
>signed by judge 3 years after a final judgement of dissolution
>of marriage was entered which says nothing about anyone giving
>or asking anyone permission during trips.
>
>The visitation portions perpetually read as follows (you can
>fill in the blanks for the other parts of the year because
>that is how it is worded for other parts):
>
>a) Allow Visitation for child with NCP in the State of
>Virginia during the Summer each and every year. Visitation
>will begin 1 week after normal school ends and terminate 23
>days thereafter.
>
>My questions are as follows:
>
>3) Can I take the child to other States for a trip without
>CP's permission?

No. And, you can't do it WITH the CP's permission, either. The court order is restrictive, and does not allow for agreements between the parents to modify its terms.

You need a new order.

>
>4) Can I take the child to other States/DC for a trip if I
>give CP notice, and the CP still says that they do not
>approve?

See above.

>
>5) Can I take the child to the UK for a trip without CP's
>permission?

See above.

>
>6) Can I take the child to the UK for a trip if I give CP
>notice, and the CP still says that they do not approve?

Already answered.

>
>7) If the answer to enough of the above questions is "no",
>then must I file a petition to modify visitation if the CP is
>unwilling to stipulate to any of this?

motion to modify.

>
>8) Can CP take the child to another State/Country for a trip
>without notifying me and/or giving me consent?

I have no idea. Show me the orders.

>
>Summary for question 9 & 10:
>
>Final judgement of dissolution of marriage was drafted in 2002
>when I resided in the State of Florida. In 2005 CP and I
>entered a stipulation to modify visitation which was signed by
>a judge and allowed visitation for child in the State of
>Virginia.
>
>Along with the judge's signature. Judge specified that
>modification supercedes final judgement of dissolution of
>marriage "to the extent of any conflict".
>
>My question is as follows:
>
>9) Does this mean that the final judgement of dissolution of
>marriage is no longer valid, or does it mean that the final
>judgement of dissolution of marriage is superceded by the
>stipulation only when conflict arises?

Prior orders remain in force unless expressly overruled by subsequent orders. If there is conflicting language, then as a practical matter, there is no order on that issue, because it's impossible to obtain a contempt, as the order is too ambiguous to provide prior notice the parties' rights and duties.

Edit: That wasn't entirely clear. If the first order says, OK to go to UK and the second one says not OK, then it's not OK. If the first order says, OK to go to UK and the second one says OK to visitation in VA, then it's still OK to go to UK, because the second order doesn't expressly overrule the first one.

>
>10) If it means that the final judgement of dissolution of
>marriage is no longer valid, then what about matters that are
>not covered in the stipulation?

See above.

[notnew]

While I can certainly understand your desire to relocate to the UK, I have to remind you that it will make your chances of ever being able to obtain custody just about 0.

It seems like you two have been to court a lot. I know the court does not look favorably on cases like that even though there may be no fault for one party. It only takes one to ruin it for everybody.

Soc is right, you need to have a modification. Your orders are way to narrow and unless you haven't revealed pertintent details, I don't see why they are so restrictive. For God's sake, in Northern VA, you can throw a rock and it will land in DC! It is crazy to think you can't take your kid to the Smithsonian, or the zoo becuase it is "out of the State of Virginia".  I suppose if the order was in FL courts, they don't realize how the DC Metropolitan area works and that it REALLY encompasses DC/Northern VA/Big Chunk of Maryland/little parts of West Virginia/PA/Delaware.

You have a lot of issues that really need to be cleared up in one court action. I re-emphasize that you really need to make sure the issues you bring to the table are the important ones. Muddying things up with little things could make you lose on the more imortant things.

I wish you the best.  

[416021va]

notsonew

We really haven't been to court alot. It is just that while I didn't understand how the process worked, CP had  lawyers bombard me with threats every move I made that was contrary to CP's liking.

I didn't know my rights then. Now the tables have turned and I have visitation time even though CP said no way will I allow that.

To answer why things were so restrictive, I guess that is just a pro se flaw.

I drafted it myself with the help of someone else. They probably didn't realize what or where NOVA was....luckily there is a smithsonian air and space museum here (he loved that)....and the Reston zoo...

Thanks again!

[notnew]

I had the same problem when I was first pro-se. 6 years later and I am still living with stupid stuff I agreed to not knowing that I didn't have to.

Be patient. Time has a way of correcting these wrongs I believe.

I guess you can tell I'm in your general area. There are a lot of interesting cases on Judicial web pages (reported appeal courts rulings) for many states. You may be able to find some caselaw to cite in that area.

I hope things work out for the best.

[416021va]

Yes I can tell :-) At least we know that we can pay for our own mistakes without paying twice if you know what I mean e.g. paying someone lots of money who doesn't know what they are doing only to make some more mistakes.

[416021va]

SOC - I find myself confused on only one issue here, which makes me want to ask you the following questions:

1) If there is no language in the final judgement or subsequent modification specifically barring NCP or CP from travelling with the child within US borders or internationally, and CP already travels with him outside of the country, then why would we need to stipulate to anything?

2) If it is ok to populate my final dissolution & modification here, is there a way that I can attach it? (I read the forum guidelines, and won't ask you to email it, unless you asked me first).

Cheers

[socrateaser]

>SOC - I find myself confused on only one issue here, which
>makes me want to ask you the following questions:
>
>1) If there is no language in the final judgement or
>subsequent modification specifically barring NCP or CP from
>travelling with the child within US borders or
>internationally, and CP already travels with him outside of
>the country, then why would we need to stipulate to anything?

There wouldn't be any reason to stipulate again, based on your question. However, you previously stated that your orders said that the child may visit the other parent in "VA." This is arguably exclusionary of the other U.S. jurisdictions. It's sufficiently vague enough for you to avoid a contempt, so I wouldn't be afraid to travel with the child outside of VA. On the other hand, if you want to clarify your current rights, then file a motion to clarify.

>
>2) If it is ok to populate my final dissolution & modification
>here, is there a way that I can attach it? (I read the forum
>guidelines, and won't ask you to email it, unless you asked me
>first).
>

I don't really have time to review your case file. If this were an emergency and you or the child were in imminent danger, I would make time -- but, otherwise, you can post the relevant portions here (or not, as you prefer).

[416021va]

So SOC,

One more question -

Does the fact that you now know that I am a US citizen change my capacity to move back to Scotland and have my child visit with me there?

Thanks

[socrateaser]

>So SOC,
>
>One more question -
>
>Does the fact that you now know that I am a US citizen change
>my capacity to move back to Scotland and have my child visit
>with me there?

Yes, it probably would mitigate the court's concern, but you will have to bear the entire cost of transporting the child, because you will be the cause of the additional expense.