my relationship with SO and his kids

[teakae]

I don't know where to start.

Last Saturday, My SO's little girl (8yrs) calls him at 9:30pm asking if she can go to a birthday party next Saturday (daddy's weekend). He agrees.

Last Thursday, she is speaking with her dad on the phone and excitedly talks about how this weekend is with her daddy and she is looking forward to going to the birthday party. In the background, mommy says "NO YOU ARE NOT GOING TO THE BIRTHDAY PARTY!!!" The girl starts crying and asking "what? WHY!!!!!!" and hangs up the phone.

SO finds out from mom that the girl called the birthday girl's parents to tell them she can go to their party at 5am on Sunday when mom was in the shower getting ready for work. And she "took it upon herself to call and bother these people when she should have known better than to call anybody at 5am" then "she mouthed off to her mom that mom doesn't have any say so in the matter because it was daddy's weekend anyway". So as punishment, the girl is nolonger allowed to go to the birthday party.

Dad feels that the girl was never taught proper manners as to telephones because the mom doesn't hesitate to call people in the middle of the night and keep dialing until the person picks up. He also thinks that not going to the birthday party is not a good punishment for this misbehavior. He wants the girl to call the birthday girls parents after he talked to them and apologize and ask them if she is still invited to the party.

So comes Friday when dad goes to pick the kids up for the weekend and asks for the invitation so he can respond to it. Mom accuses him that he will take the girl to the birthday party if she gives it to him and she can't allow that because the girl has problems following directions and she is being punished for it by not going to the party. Dad askes to get the invitation and that he is going to call the birthday girls parents to apologize and see if the girl is still invited to the party after her infraction. Mom says no, she has already spoken to them (probably a lie) and he has no need for the invitation other than to go behind her back.

There is several things about this whole transaction that bothers me.

One, of course is the mom. I have a problem with her mismatch between misbehavior and punishment. The girl did not even know she was forbidden to go until her mom told her when she was on the phone with dad. I don't think it is fair, if the girl didn't know that could be taken away. I am also bothered that the mom probably "made up" this punishment because she was jealous of how happily the girl was talking to her dad about the upcoming weekend. (History of severe PAS, traits of naricissim abundant in mom)

Secondly, I am mad at my SO, the dad. He told me on Thursday that he intended to find out who the birthday girl was and get her contact info from the teacher at school. But he didn't (forgot or got too busy at work on Friday). Then before he was going to go pick up the kids he said he was going to get it out of mom because she has "no right to dictate what he does with the kids on his weekend". I reminded him that accusing mom won't help and just make her mad, so just tell her you want to contact the birthday parents yourself to apologize and you are going to do what you think is right for your daughter. He agreed.

BUT....

He is greeted by the kids as he walks up to the door. The girl doesn't have any shoes on so her mom tells her to go get her shoes. The dad also concurrs and adds that the girl should also bring her invitation to the party. And I am thinking, "what the hell, why is he involving the kids in the battle...do the dirty work for him"
The mom says to him "she isn't going to the party because she is being punished and I won't let you have the invitation because you will go behind my back and take her anyway".
He says "I promised her I will let her go"
Mom says "I don't care, she is being punished"
He says "I want the invitation, can I have it.. please???"
Mom says "NO!"
He says "So you are going to deny her this just because she called them at 5am, alright, alright, OK" in a sarcastic manner and walks away from mom.

I guess I am sad because, despite everything, no matter how hard his resolve is to do the right thing, to protect the kids, and try to neutralize all the damage his ex is doing to them, he knows nothing about being firm and decisive. He never could talk to his ex in a way that made her behave, ever, in their 10 years together. And I guess its not going to happen now. She walks all over his back and he just says "what do you want me to say" and "what can I possibly do?" I don't blame him for not being able to articulate himself well when put on a spot. I blame him for not taking preventative measures (e.g. calling the teacher) so that he doesn't have to do what he knows he can't do)

As he is getting back into the car with the kids, he asks the girl, "do you know the girls phone number and her parents name?" What is that!??? What is this behavior telling his kids, "well, I couldn't get the pertenent info from mom so please can the little girl tell him what to do???"

My friends say, it takes a stupid man to fall for a stupid woman..
I am stressing out about things I can't change?

[katz]

Your SO should not have had that conversation in front of the kids, as it appears you know. I believe the punishment should be carried out in your home also.

IF my child did that called someone at 5:00 am, I would of done the same thing, denied the birthday party, and get my child to write a note of apology. Weather I had already taught her/him that was acceptable behavior or not. I would use the infraction as a teaching tool, and I bet it wouldnt happen again.

Your SO is playing "disney dad", or possibly "knight in shining armor", to his daughter, and the only thing he is teaching her is that he does not respect his daughters mother. The issue should of only been dealt with between the parents, even divorced parents should do the "united front" for the kids.

I dont think it is obvious the girl didnt know her punishment, at 8 years old believe me they already know how to manipulate the 2 households. I think this is a choose your battles thing, and personally I wouldnt of chosen this one. Just my opinion for what its worth, and it may not be worth much~

[junglechicken]

And if dad were being reasonable, and thinking about what he would do in the same situation, he may be able to see that as well.

What *would* dad do if sd phoned someone at 5am like that, then backtalked on top of it?

The wrong happened with mom and dad not discussing appropriate punishment.  

[teakae]

Thank you for your input.

>Your SO is playing "disney dad", or possibly "knight in
>shining armor", to his daughter, and the only thing he is
>teaching her is that he does not respect his daughters mother.
>The issue should of only been dealt with between the parents,
>even divorced parents should do the "united front" for the
>kids.

I can see where this action looks that way. And yes, punishment should be consistant and parents need to have a united front. I think that under regular circumstances, the child should have been forbidden to go to the party. But this is only one in a continuing series of disagreements. Let me see if I can explain.

>
>IF my child did that called someone at 5:00 am, I would of
>done the same thing, denied the birthday party, and get my
>child to write a note of apology. Weather I had already taught
>her/him that was acceptable behavior or not. I would use the
>infraction as a teaching tool, and I bet it wouldnt happen
>again.
>

I definitely agree that this should have been a teaching tool. What often happens at BM's house is that kids get punished by grounding, writing statements 100 times etc but no external consequences as to how to go about fixing what you did wrong and how to  make sure it doesn't happen again.

Recently the girl was punished by being spanked, sent to her room and grounded for a week because she didn't clean her hamster cage despite being told "three times".  OK, taking care of pets, is a good thing to teach and should be enforced by punishment if they don't comply.
The spanking was for not doing what her mom told her after 3 times. She was sent to her room because she talked back and said she hadn't wanted the hamster to begin with. Grounding was for not taking care of the hamster.





SO has trouble with the spanking because he knows the child was not even shown how a cage is supposed to be cleaned in the first place. Just yelled at to clean it. Careing for pets is an ongoing thing that has to be reignforced and supervised. Like brushing your teeth. You can't just "tell" your kid to do it. You have to be there and show them how to do it, then after they can do it, supervise to make sure it is done correctly each time.

SO has trouble with sending the child to her room for saying she didn't want the hamster anyway because it is true.
Her brother (10yrs) got a check from SO's parents for his birthday. SO couldn't cash it that day so he took it to BM and asked her to cash it for him. He wanted a snake for his birthday and SO had promised him a while back that if he puts his birthday money toward it, he will help pay for the rest and let him have the snake at his house (BM said no to having a snake in her house previously) SO and son went and purchased the snake and son asked BM when she will be able to give him his money. BM said that that money was to spend with her and he should buy a hamster to keep at her place. And if he doesn't want that, he can't have the money back. So ofcourse he chose to get a hamster. At the same time, BM bought the girl a hamster too and told her that when she got her birthday money from SO's grandparents that she has to reimburse the money to BM. When the check came in the mail, girl was all excited to spend it right away but her brother reminded her that she needs to give it to mommy. (SO didn't know of this arrangement till son told him) Girl says thats not true (manipulation) so SO had her call her mom to ask if it was ok to spend her money with daddy. Her mom said no. SO told the girl that once you promise something to someone, you can't take it back just because you want it to be the other way. Girl said that why couldn't she spend her money with daddy since mommy spent her brother's money even though it was "promised" to daddy. SO just said that isn't how things are done with him and that she can't spend that money with him.

SO also has a problem with grounding her for a week. How is that supposed to remedy "taking care of your pets" behavior?  BM in the end is always cleaning the cage by herself. Rather than making sure her daughter does it, she would rather just continue to bitch to everybody about how she ONLY bought the hamster for daughter because daughter promised to take care of it.
    Additionally the kids currently have no extracurricular activites (BM forbids it because SO paid the activity center directly and didn't give her the cash), doing poorly in school (boy is intentionally putting wrong answers on school work because he wanted to stay in his old school but BM suddenly moved him to her school district) (girl has attention problems and is very needy and immature and teachers say she needs tutoring but BM says that would be "pushing her too hard"), they are mostly forbidden to play with other kids in the neigborhood because they "run into the street" on a busy industrial road and get in trouble with the businesses. They mostly stay inside and watch TV and play video games on a non grounded day. Additionally when BM imposes grounding, she often lifts it on the second day because "the kids are driving me nuts saying they are bored and asking me to do something with them". So it goes.

>I dont think it is obvious the girl didnt know her punishment,
>at 8 years old believe me they already know how to manipulate
>the 2 households.

I have no doubt that the girl knows to manipulate households. But I know that the girl also knows that BM changes her story and punishment as quickly as she imposes them. In all likelihood, BM probably didn't even mention the consequence of "not going to the birthday party" for her misbehavior at the time of infraction.  I think the main reason she decided on that punishment was because the birthday party was on daddy's weekend and by forbiding it, it would ensure the girl will be in a foul mood during the whole visit. (BM does PAS all the time to make sure kids can't enjoy themselves)

So yes, it would be nice to have an "united front". And yes it is probably true that SO is being "too easy" on the kids. But right now, he is focusing on getting the kids to have positive new experiences because he has so little time with them and there is so much negativity in the BM's household.

[Stepmomnow]

My two cents

It seems to me that SO and BM are WAY too involved in each others lives and homes.  Why did SO allow the check to go to BM?  His time, his family's gift, he should have taken care of it.  Rules made at one house cannot be enforced at the other house without getting into a situation that allows the kids to manupulate the parents and the parents to punish each other through punishing the kids.  

The way we work it is that if there is an issue at our house, it is dealt with at our house, and we do not ever expect a punishment we decide on to be carried out in the other house (we have 50/50 custody, week on week off).  That is not to say that problems at school (of which there are many) don't get shared between the parents.  But each parent decides what the punishment will be for the infraction when SS is at their house.  We do not share with BM what kinds of problems we have because 1) we don't have a lot of problems with SS and 2) if we did, we would get a lot of unwanted advice and blaim for handling things wrong.

Now, SS is only 11 and has never needed grounding (his issues are ADD and a good punishment is to restrict video games) so I don't know how that will work when he is older. I suspect we will try other types of punishment than grounding.

[teakae]

>It seems to me that SO and BM are WAY too involved in each
>others lives and homes.  Why did SO allow the check to go to
>BM?  His time, his family's gift, he should have taken care of
>it.  Rules made at one house cannot be enforced at the other
>house without getting into a situation that allows the kids to
>manupulate the parents and the parents to punish each other
>through punishing the kids.  

I completely agree. SO needs to show that he can keep his house in order and take control of his time with the kids. Especially because he knows the BM is manipulative and won't hesitate to use any situation.

Which brings me to my original point that I feel SO is failing in doing everything he can for the kids under the circumstances. I feel that he is not taking the extra effort to put preventative measures in place to minimize these incidents. Like making sure the check stays with him, like making sure to get the birthday info from the teacher, like closing the door behind him when BM comes to pick up the kids so she doesn't barge in. He is not a verbal person and he has very poor negotiating skills and he knows it. So why did he confront BM face to face when trying to get the birthday invitation? Why let the kids take the check home?
He would say the excuse for trying to get the birthday invitation directly is because he didn't get to call the teacher that day. Lame.
He would say he let the kids take the check home because if he didn't BM would say to the kids  "it is really cheap of your dad to forbid you to bring your birthday check over when it is actually your money". But there are different ways to let the kids know it is not that he is being mean to mommy by fobidding the checks to go to her house. Like grand ma wanted us to call her when we got what we wanted from the store right away. Or just simply, the check is for you to look forward to spending on your next visit.

More recently, BM called SO saying that the girl's teacher had talked to her and she needs to be tutored because the girl is incapable of doing any work if there is not a full time adult assisting her. She said how hard she had to look for a tutor that will tutor for free and how he never helps her with anything and that the whole problem with the girl is because SO fails to follow through on BM's punishments.

Hearing this SO is thinking "UGGGHH now she is making the tutor idea her own unique idea and totally ignoring that she forbid the girl from getting any tutoring for the last 8 months because "she needs to be a little girl over the summer and not pushed too hard because if she learns too much and gets ahead of her class, she will not pay attention when she returns to school in the fall". BM just doen'st like it because it wasn't her idea. SO knew of the girls problems so he went to the teacher as to what she recommended for the girl and they recommended tutoring and therapy.

Ofcourse SO knows that as long as the girl gets what she needs thats the important part regardless of who thought of it first. But I feel angry because I have been telling SO to go visit the school and meet with the teacher and tell her you know the girl needs help but BM is preventing it and to please convince BM for him or he can try to get a court order for it again. SO was busy, there were 3 hurricaines, one missed appointment by the teacher (he was there but teacher already went home), difficulty getting her on the phone to set up the appointment etc and he had not had a chance to speak with her first. Now with less than a month of school, the girl is already failing and it too the teacher to talk to BM for anything to happen. I have problems with BM "beating" us to the teacher because its the principal of the matter. You want to make sure you get the teachers on your side before BM can go to her with all her lies.

In the end, it probably won't make any difference in terms of the girl and tutoring. But this type of delay, inaction and things happening by default really makes me frustrated. I am not saying he should suddenly become superman and win an arugument with BM. I expect him to be a little more aware of the nuances that can make or break his custody case and to be more motivated in doing everything what he can.

I would hate it if we got less than 50/50 and he just says "what could I have done.. nothing.. that bitch..." Because I would know that there was a lot more he could have done. And I would hate it if the kids lose faith in him because he lets BM walk all over his back. His answer to that would be the same "what could I have done.... bitch"

Am I being too nit picky on a point that would make little difference in custody award and the kids psychological well being?

Maybe he is just not capable of what I am expecting and it is a waste of my time to encourage him to do what I think might help him get the kids more.  I want to help him because I know his love for the children is genuine which is more than what I can say for the mother. But he didn't get into this situation just by accident. Maybe he deserves what is coming good or bad and I really don't have any say in it.

Just frustrated.