New here, question on custody.

[Berk]

I understand that joint legal custody means both the parents play a role in the major decisions dealing with the kids. My ex's atty says if I have joint custody, she will pay me support. I was wondering if any of you out there have joint legal and physical custody? How is it working for you? I want to be a Father to my kids, and want my rights protected. I have an atty, but he is away for the next couple of days and not able to help me see through this fight my ex and I are having right now.

[dcurtain]

It likely will depend on what state you are in. Here in Michigan, child support is calculated using a shared economic formula. It takes into account each parents' salary and the number of overnights expected in each parents' home.

The only way she will have to pay child support to you (at least in MI) is if the children live primarily with you versus your ex.

I have joint legal / joint physical. My S2BX and I have worked fairly well together as far as shared parenting time goes. As far as the decree, if at some point we cannot agree on the parenting time, we fall back on a 7/7 plan.

If I were in your shoes, I would not do a thing until my attorney was back. Tell 'em you need to discuss with your counsel. It sounds like they're trying to get you to jump off of joint custody - which you do not want to do.

My 2 cents...

-d

[jess316]

My husband and his ex have joint legal and physical custody. They each have their daughter half of the time, comepletely even. He actually pays child support, because he makes more money than she does. But even if child support is ordered for that reason, it will be a very small amount. Basically, the court figures that if the two parties were still together, the person with the higher income would be contributing more financially to their child's upbringing, so they order a very small amount to be paid to keep it that way. If the two of you talk about it together and don't like this idea, your attorneys may be able to put in an agreement that the person who would be entitled to support is declining it. Your attorney will have more information on it. Do NOT agree to give up joint custody. And if I were you, I would be careful from now on, it sounds to me like she is trying to trick you, and may attempt it again in the future.


Jessica

[nosonew]

Next time, put a little more info, like if you are cp or ncp, joint custody or not.  Post your info, give a few more details so he can make a realistic decision, read his rules first too, and post to him.  He is the legal expert here.  Otherwise, wait for your attorney.  

[MNMom]

My ex and I share joint custody, alternating weekly.  It works very well for us, for the time being.  I could have gotten a good amount for CS since he makes around 100K per year. In MN they take both incomes, figure the difference and calculate CS from there, so the person making more money always ends up paying. I waived CS because I felt it was more important our son have both his parents than to begin a rivelry involving CS. Heck, I'd be a little upset if I had to pay my ex, eventhough I had our son 1/2 time. Doesn't seem fair. I can see in situations when one person has not worked in many years that may be necessary, but when both parents are working and able to support themselves, I don't believe CS should be awarded in joint custody cases.  Hope this helps.

[NJDad]

Hi Berk,

The impression that I get is that you are looking to save money by getting shared physical custody of your children. I am hoping that this is not the main driving force for your desire to do this. As I see it, there might be a couple of problems or issues to concern yourself with:
 

First, you two are fighting about shared physical custody. This is not the best foundation for this type of arrangement if you and your Ex have a lot of animosity for each other, especially if you two see each other frequently. The age of the kids will determine this, the younger they are the harder it will be with the Courts. The older they are, they may want to be in the same house for their friends and stability.

Second, you should be in or near the same school district. She will have to claim the kids as an IRS primary residence or else you may be switching schools on them.

Third, you may not be saving money by getting the kids. Many times, it is more expensive to get the kids than what you would be receiving in child support reductions.

Forth, I don't know how many or how old your kids are, but if they are only several years from emancipation it might not pay, in legal fees and aggravation, to pursue reductions in support.

And lastly, depending on how you two declared your income and expenses on your C.I.S., the court may not reduce your child support or they may reapportion it as alimony so that your Ex can still maintain her house. You may get the kids and receive little or no reduction in payments, so be prepared.


Food for thought -

I don't know how much you are paying but if you do get a 50% reduction in support, are we talking about a $200/month or $1000/month reduction?

Let's work with a child support reduction of $200/month, because $1000/month is easier to justify. That would be $100/week for the kids to live on. Can you support the kids with that little extra income? Do you need a part-time nanny? Who picks them up and gets them off the school bus? Who makes breakfast, lunch and dinner for them? Laundry? If you are remarried, will your new spouse like watching the kids and taking them to the doctor or activities while you are off working or doing whatever? Oops, your food, school lunches, clothing, housing (hot water, electricity & furnishings), telephone, transportation and medical bills will increase. "I'm going out with my friends to the movies, Can I have $20?" Who will be claiming the dependents with the IRS?

Surprise! It looks like you are totally reworking your support and parenting agreement, just like you did during the divorce. You are just spending another $5-10K (if you have a nice Ex) in legal/trial fees just to go this far. Subtract this expense from what you will be 'saving' by getting the kids, except this $5-10K has to be paid up front to your attorney who loves when couples fight. It's money in their pocket.


You didn't give much info here so I can't go any further. But, be careful what you ask for, you might just get it.

W

[Berk]

Sorry for being so vague.  :)

My wife and I split in August. I am the cp of my oldest son from my first marriage. I have 2 children with this marriage; son who is 3 and a daughter who is 5. I am the non-custodial parent of these two. The provisional agreement has my visitation set as follows:

3 PM Tuesday until 3 PM Wednesday.
3 PM Thursday until 3 PM Friday.
Every other Weekend starting at 3 PM Friday.

As that works out, I have them about 160 days out of the year.

Holidays are divided every other one. Mother's day she has them, Father's day I have them.

Child support is set at $154 per week. A new law went into effect Jan. 1st in Indiana. The NCP is given a credit to his/her child support for visitation, or "Parenting Time". With the current visitation, I will receive about a 63% credit to my child support. This new law has made her very angry. We have a hearing in March which is when (I assume) the Judge will hear any arguments and sign the papers.

When I asked her about Joint Physical custody, my only concern was to be able to see my children as much as possible. After some discussion with her attorney, she has decided that Joint Physical and legal is what she wants. She wants me to pay half of Educational expenses, child care/preschool, and half of the medical expenses after her out of pocket reach what I pay to cover them. She mentioned that no child support should be paid, but I make more than she does so the court will not allow a no support decision. We would take care of our own residential expenses as they are with us almost equally. I want to run it by my Attorney next week and see what he thinks.

[NJDad]

Hi Berk,

I think that you might have a good thing going if it materializes.

You are getting the kids for 4 of 7 overnights which should be 57%. The way I see it, you would be paying about about $88 per week. Unless a NCP gets other breaks as well. Wow! What a steal!


Here's the problem -

I'm just a little confused as to why she would be very angry by you getting a child support credit but then offer you no child support? She may have mentioned that to give you the impression that she is working with you, while full well knowing that the Courts won't drop support.

I think you should wait for your attorney. Only time will tell and be VERY cautious. My Ex offered me a bunch of things and when it came down to finalizing them, she reneged on almost every one of them. Her approach was to try to be very nice & accomodating as a way to get me to lower my guard. I found out she was taking the kids to Psychologists, CPS and Doctors without my knowledge, trying to build a case that I was unfit. Remember, the doctors WON'T call you if you are made out to be the bad guy. KEEP CALM. If the children are under your health care plan, contact them for copies of all EOBs since August. Of course, one of my Ex's  Psychologists never submitted any claims - she must have been paid in full. Another one submitted her claims AFTER I found out she existed.

If you two are separated, the Psychologist does NOT have to notify you if your wife takes them because you two are still married AND no Court Order is in place guaranteeing you notification. NEVER, EVER meet with them. This way their testimony will be thrown out of court. If you see them, especially with the kids, then they can testify against you. But also remember, since there is no Order barring you from your children's medical records, if you find out they saw someone, you can contact them for the records (via your attorney). My kids, at the time were 7, 4, 3 & 1. At 8 1/2, my oldest daughter started telling on my Ex's antics. Today, the 6 1/2 year old boy is still traumatized by her. The Ex concentrated on the 4 & 3 year old because they are easier to control. This has been going on for 2 1/2 years now. Finally, it looks as though the Ex is the unfit parent. I am going for Residential Custody. Your kids are right in that range. Gently ask them if their mommy is taking them to someone to talk to or elude to taking them to someone.

If it works out, I'll be very happy for you. Something just doesn't sound right though. You are too early in your separation, with such young kids, for such a mature parent to emerge.

If you sit back and examine everything that was said and done, you will notice inconsistancies as to what you are being told and what happens. It's these little inconsistancies that should raise a flag. I got very good at detecting these kind of things, especially once I realized what was happening. I was in the courthouse at a parenting class and a good majority of the mothers were discussing ways of eliminating the father from their and their kids lives. It's a slow process which requires a lot of foundation work. It is this foundation which takes time to build. But once it's there, the rest of the structure goes up in no time. It was terrible to watch people behave like that.

Best wishes,
W



 :o

[Berk]

I think that she is angry about the credit because she will get less money from me and actually have to get a better job. Something just did not feel right when I went over to get the kids after work and she had a 8 page list of things she wanted me to read. Most of it was stuff we had already talked and agreed about. I told her that it looked like a good start for us to work on, but I wanted to talk to my attorney about it before I said anything about it. She started to get angry and wanted to know what on there I had problems with. I told her again that it looked like a good start for us to work on, but I wanted to talk to my attorney about it before I said anything about it. Ended up with me leaving so the kids did not see us fight.

Now she is saying that if I do not agree to it, she will go after me for attorney's fees, spousal support and my 401k. The 401k she has said she did not want, but now it seems she is using money as leverage to get me to do what she wants.

Since the kids are under my health insurance, anytime she uses the insurance the statement comes to me. Of course if she pays out of pocket that makes it hard to catch.

[NJDad]

Berk,

Your wife is just like mine. Once you question her on things or show that you don't trust her, she will turn on you. You're in trouble. And she WILL go after everything and always intended to.

Your Ex just telegraphed her intentions to you. Why would she be threatening you if you are just trying to protect yourself? If there was nothing nefarious about what she is claiming, what's the problem?



I have some questions, and be honest:

Was your relationship the type where you went along with her 95% of the time because it was easier than challenging her on an issue and feeling her wrath?

Does she always have to be upset or angry with someone, carrying on senseless feuds or tensions between people?

Were there many times when she would say something and you would second guess what she said because you swore she said something else before? When you asked her about it, she would deny ever saying the first thing you thought she said? Then you would doubt what you remembered?


W

:o

[Berk]

Yes, I went along with much of what she said to avoid the conflict. She was and still is a very manipulating woman. Part of the reason I left was the treatment of my first son, her step child. Took me quite some time to realize (or maybe get the guts) that there was a serious problem. Lots of mental abuse. Things are going much better with my oldest now.

Yes, she always is and I suppose has to be upset with someone. She has no close friends to speak of. Right now she has plenty, but I know it is just the "Divorce Groupies" that cling to a person during their divorce. Many have unresolved issues with former spouses and want to see me pay for them through her. Soon she will have problems with them and cast them aside.

I never gave the 3rd much thought. She was always quick on her feet in dicussions and arguments. If I did not literally take a good amount of time to prepare, I would have a hard time supporting my point. When I did do that, the end result was a huge fight. Now that I think about it, she did do that on occasion. I always doubted my memory when it came to things that I thought she said.

[NJDad]

Hi Berk,

You are about 1-2 weeks from getting arrested. It happened to me, my ex's niece did it and several people at work. For me, it was the next time I met her.

Immediately go to the Father Issues section, there is a posting for Recording Phone Calls from gaguy and my reply. Do exactly what it says tonight. Go to Best Buy and radio Shack.

Then, on your way back, go to Border's or B&N and pick up the following book: Stop Walking On Eggshells. It will give you great insight on what will be happening to you and what you have been dealing with.

Search Google for Dean Tong. He has some good books to like: Elusive Innocence. But first read the Eggshells book.

Unfortunately, you are in this for the long haul. If you don't do these steps, your Ex may have CPS take your first child out of your household as well.


DO NOT TRUST HER!!! 15% of the women and 8% of the men behave like this, especially during divorce.


Also, read my Change Of Custody posting on this message board. It can be done, you just have to outfox the fox, which is hard to do unless you read that book a couple of times (they use foreign logic).


W

PS. You can never verbally spar with this type of person, if you catch them on something, they will immediately try to change the subject and most times you will follow their bait. It you stick with the topic, they will get upset and hang up the phone. You will never figure our her logic, because she will be illogical.

 

[NJDad]

Hi Berk,


If you feel either you or your kids are in danger, go to the police and file a protective order. Most states, harassment charges can be filed up to 1 year after the offense. But try to keep it an immediate threat. It can be verbal or physical threats or abuse. But make sure it's a legitimate charge and serious enough to intimidate / hurt the kids. If you file the charge for your own self's protection, it may hurt your access to the kids.

You have the kids 6 of 14 nights. You are NOT the primary residence / parent. If you have the kids when this order is placed, they may be able to stay with you. Check with someone from the Police, County or CPS (they are 24x7) first.

If your soon-to-be Ex files first, they will stay with her and you will be in an up-hill battle on Hamburger Hill. For me, I'm will be in it for $120K by the end of next month because I was always on the defensive, trying to prove my innocence.

You may have to file charges fast & furious. That's the only language they understand. But don't let on that you are thinking this, if you are.

W


Note: All of my comments in these postings are derived from my personal experiences or opinions. I am not an attorney, please seek council's advice for proper direction.