Old papers vs new papers, what's right?

[MixedBag]

That's what I'm leaning towards.

I think you have a close distance order that outlines parenting time in the original order, and a long distance (new post-relocation) order that outlines parenting time AFTER/POST her move.

I think I asked what the original order says about your parenting time, spring break, easter -- don't remember reading an answer.

I think that the two orders work together to give you a complete picture.

I believe that waaaaaay back when Soc was here, he would say that whatever was in the original order stays UNLESS changed by subsequent orders.  If your new order that gives her permission to move says "post-relocation" -- then I'd say that kicks in AFTER she moves and not beforehand.

In terms of the holidays, I hope that they line up so that if Easter was with Dad this year in the original order, Easter should be with Dad in the long distance order/post-relocation order.

THEN.....look up 3 elements of contempt....again in Soc's section.  I don't think that your situation has met all three elements in order for her to successfully get a contempt charge awarded in court.

Lastly.....yes to what Kitty said -- tell mom that IF she files, then you will be asking the court to reimburse you for all of your costs due to her frivilous actions.

On the flip side -- if she files a "Motion for Clarification" -- to get this situation cleared up and defined, then I doubt you will get your costs back.  Contempt, yes a much better chance.

In my orders (2 mine, and 1 EX#3), we had a close distance (like EOW) schedule, and a long distance parenting time plan built right in from the beginning because we were all connected to the military which meant moving around so the long distance part was put in there from the beginning.  But until a move happened, there was a need for a close distance plan.

[tigger]

I think the biggest test is going to be if there are any aspects of the old order that you are utilizing as a short distance visitation.

In other words, if the short distance order says that you get midweek overnight or a midweek dinner and you are using it but it's not in the long distance order then you've shown that that's the order you wanted to follow until she moved.  But then you liked the idea of having all of Spring Break that's given to you in the new order so you decided to follow that part of the new order.  It really all depends on if you are following the new order to the letter already or if you're picking and choosing between the two orders as to what suits you best.

[SuperDad52]

well, I have been getting my son on Wednesdays which is not in the new order or old order.  It was a verbal agreement when we was in court.  Happened like this.  BM sat there telling the judge "I just wish he would spend more time w/his son that all I want but he wont" (Huge lie).  So at the end of the hearing while we were all about to get up and leave my attorney said , before we leave would you (talking to me) like to discuss any options and or times that you may be able to get your son seeings how BM offered.  I said yes and the judge said ok ya'll go ahead I don't have to be in here for this and she left.  That left me and BM and both attorneys in the room and we aggreed on Wed after school until 8:30pm.
So yes I am still going by that which isn't in any order at all but I still want my extended time sharing that is in the new order.  Spring break is not in the old order at all, I have never gotten my son during spring break this is the first time in 11 years and it's a freaking problem.  It's always a problem! My old order show 2 weeks during the summer, last year I got 4 days because BM called him, made him upset about she almost died in a plane crash (they had to make an emergency landing because they ran out of fuel)  believe that?) told him about all these toys she had bought for him and he wanted to go home.  That night was a B#$%h!  She had him crying at 10pm when I thought was in bed (I was) and he came into my room all upset w/his mother on the phone wanting to go home, she drove out to my house to pick him up (30 min) and had my son on the phone the entire time, all the way until he walked out my door and half way across the way to her car.  For a visual, I live in a house w/no neighbors on several acres of land and her car was sitting in my front yard.
Now, she told me yesterday that I'm not getting my son on Wednesdays anymore because I've pissed her off and she hopes I look good in an orange suit, I guess I'm going to jail ..  Oh, well....
Oh, and something else.......My son has a cast on his foot (thank the lord that didn't happen at my house) and is suppose to get it off Wednesday morning, I called her yesterday to get the time and location of the Dr. and she wouldn't give it to me..she just kept yelling and telling me that we will be in court on Wed. for an emergency hearing.
And, now I'm wondering if I need to go into the court room with an attorney or not.  All were going to be doing is have the judge decipher what her order says and c.s and child support is pretty much a form that tell it all and here is what you will pay sir.  I did just get a new job (actually I start Monday) and am going to make another $5-6 an hour so she should be really happy w/that.

[MixedBag]

o.k., so mom is a real -- ummmm....winner.

her past behavior really isn't relevant to what we're trying to help you figure out.

WHAT does the original order say regarding the time that your child gets to spend with you?

And what does the NEW order say regarding time with the child?

And yes, I understand that Wed's evenings are based on a verbal agreement.

Tigger's logic is right.....

[MixedBag]

let me add something from personal experience.....and three "wonderful" decrees we dealt with.

EX#1....received half/6 weeks over the summer, and one week alternating Christmas and Thanksgiving over 20 years ago.

Then I/NCP received half/6 weeks over the summer, and one week alternating Christmas, Thanksgiving, and Easter/Spring break.

I thought I was doing well -- negotiated a good deal for a long distant parent.

EX#3/NCP received 8 weeks in the summer, and alternated one week over 4 holidays -- added New Years into the mix.

I sat back and thought wow......I should have asked for a week over New Years too.

BUT I had no reason (that wonderful significant change in circumstances) to go BACK and ask for that additional week.

So.....I sat tight until I retired....and the rest is really not relevant.

What I'm trying to say is that the definition or "standard" period of time a child spends with either parent has changed and evolved over time, and it's really really important to get it right during the initial rounds.

After the initial round, the standard or REASON to modify the order changes, and the thought that a child is better off by spending as close to 50/50 with both parents is not logical in court or assumed in court.

[SuperDad52]

old order:
2 weeks during the summer-tbd by the parents (this is a nightmare because well, the obvious)
alternating weekends friday to sunday 6pm to 6pm
Christmas - christmas eve is the day before christmas eve time not stated to 8 pm on christmas eve night
Thanksgiving - split thanksgiving day (this has happened three times and is nearly impossible)
Halloween - split holloween outing (this has only happened once and is dumb)


new order:
alternate two-night weekends
Alternate school vacations-
      Thanksgiving in odd-numbered years with father and even with mother
      Christmas in odd-numbered years with mother and even with father
      Spring break odd-numbered years with father and even with mother
      Summer time-sharing: four continuous weeks each with the mother having the the first four weeks after school recesses in the even0-numbered years and the father having the first four weeks after school recessed in the odd-numbered years. The last four weeks ending the Friday preceding the resumption of classes for the fall term of school.

There it is.......so now with all that said, if we/when we go back to court for this here spring break issue I can see many things that need to be addressed.  These are the papers I got after the judge made her decision their was no negotiating any visitation or anything this is it and I can see many issues that will arise.  There are not set times or days for Thanksgiving, Christmas, or Spring Break which will become an issue, I KNOW!!

This is really sad, the only times BM and I really get into it is when I want to see my boy.

[MixedBag]

o.k., I see the old order defining when the weekend starts and ends -- even though this is not in the new order.

I see the new order still has an EOW provision, like the old order -- so it's a close distance situation still.

I see the new order mentions "school vacations" that actually expand the times in the old order which is normally what happens for a long distance plan.

I would take the older orders' "time for weekends" as the start time for school vacations -- like 6 pm on the last day of school to 6 pm on the day before school resumes.

What does this mean? "The last four weeks ending the Friday preceding the resumption of classes for the fall term of school."  Where does this fit in because the 4 weeks of summer were defined.

I can also see how Mom would think "old order" -- since her point of view seems to be to limit (reduce) your time with the child.

[tigger]

So it would seem her intent is obvious.  I don't think she has a leg to stand on although if she's crazy enough to take it to court, I would counter with a request for clarification and specific times. 

My ex and I had "after school or 12 noon if a non-school day" until 6 p.m. Sunday (or Monday if it were Memorial Day or Labor Day).  For our (parental) birthdays we had after school or 12 noon if a non-school day until 9 p.m.  That automatically caused a problem with my birthday because if my birthday lands on a Friday, Saturday or Sunday, it's on Labor Day weekend so I had it written that on years when that happened, my birthday time was to be the following Tuesday.  (I didn't want the birthdays in there but if he was going to insist, I wanted to make sure we prevented future issues.)

We went back and adjusted the times for the holidays so that we no longer split the actual holiday.  (1/2 day Thanksgiving, Easter, etc.)  It was exhausting for both kids and adults.  That one was my fault.  When we were writing the original order I didn't think I could stand the thought of missing an entire holiday with them.  It was better for everyone involved to have whole holidays and yes, I survived.  I actually preferred it. 

The first two orders were "mediated" just between us (and our lawyers).  The last order was ordered by a judge because we couldn't agree . . . actually we could agree but he wanted everything to happen immediately whereas I wanted a gradual transition to monitor YS' reaction.  He actually lost time by taking me to court as the judge was put off by his change from wanting 50/50 to reversing custody without cause and he ended up with 40/60 roughly and a kid who doesn't want to be there at all. 

Is there any chance of her calming down and being reasonable?

[SuperDad52]

Their is no chance of her calming down and being reasonable!!!!!
Here's what happened.
BM showed up earlier today with the cops.  The cop and I had words and I was very assertive of how BM is always bribing my son away from me on my time with him with all the extravigant adventures not to mention the new puppy she just bought him yesterday.  Oh, he was so ready to go home it wasn't funny (AT ALL).  So, the cop tells me that he can't force my son to leave with his mother but he can't stop him either.  I instructed all of them to leave my yard (cop, BM and new stepdad) and as soon as the cop left out of the garage I closed the garage door behind him, at the same time I heard my front door close and looked out the window and seen my son walking out side.  I followed and my son said he wanted to go w/his mom.  I did tell him no once and BM and I had some words and my son started walking over to BM car and said he wanted to go again.  At this point my options are very limited!  I didn't want to force my son to stay when he wanted to go and I surly didn't want to get arrested for doing what was going through my mind so I had to let him get into the car and watch them drive away as the cop and I finished our little bitch session.
I can't take it anymore.  I've lived the last 10 years like this and I'm having an emotional break down.  I'm a loving father who has lost all grip on everything.  I'm done putting myself through this.  I know my boy is 11 and only wants to do all the fun things that mom promises him on my time or hers BM really don't care she always gets her way and I'm always on the outside looking in and I can't take it anymore.  I can not compete with what (whoever she doin) financially and it has taken a toll.  SHE WINS!!  My visitations are over.  I'ma contact my attorney and have her submit a form if one exist and release my rights before I end up in prison for snapping.  Theirs many kids w/out a father in their live because the father don't want anything to do w/them and now their will be one more because of his mother and the court system. I'm sorry Austin, I love you!

Thanks for all your help with everything through all of this!
Defeatedad52

[bloom6372]

Are you 100% sure you WANT to give up your rights? Remember that you are making that choice based on BM, not based on what you want, or what your son needs and deserves (you in his life). This all needs to be brought before the judge, so that the judge can see the games she plays. You need to work to get a VERY specific Court Order. The new order is the legal one--the portions of the old order regarding visitations were overwritten by the new one. Just because BM chose not to move does not make the new Order null and void, unless there is a provision in the new one SPECIFICALLY stating that it only is valid if there is a long distance between the homes.

Is there any way to get it COed that BM NOT be allowed on your property (if you don't give up your rights)? That could help to prevent her from showing up during your visitations.