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Started by lfwwjd, Nov 28, 2003, 08:39:07 AM

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My ex has tried unsuccessfully during the past two years to delay, deny, prevent my visitation but the courts have told her the children must come for visitation.  I have two children, 10 and 12.  Six months ago when my 10 year old refused to put on his church clothes for church I grabbed his arm and told him he must do as I say.  My 10-year old son replied, "I will tell social services and have your visitaion taken away".  After returning to his mother's, she is a social worker, she called the police, alleged child abuse and filed an EPO saying I scratched his arm.  In the first EPO hearing the judge said he would not hear the case because he knew the children's mother from her social work job and had worked with her.  At the second EPO hearing the judge said I did abuse my son, by grabbing his arm, and terminated my visitation pending counseling for me and the kids. This judge plays golf with the children's grandfather, their mother's Dad, and went to church with the children and their mother for eight years until my ex remarried and changed churches.  I have not seen my kids for three months and they are very hateful over phone, when I can get through to them on the phone.  What can I do about this judge who is taking these kids away from me?  I have gone to all the counseling ordered, participated, and he still refuses to let me have any visitation.  I can not discipline the children when do come, physcially by spanking or touching them, and the children know this.  What can I do to fight this court system who takes children form their parents and allows the children to run the house??  Should I give up and walk away?? How do you fight a judge?  My lawyer says nothing can be done, it's up to the kids.  And as much as it hurts, the kids say they love thier new stepdad and don't love me anymore or want to see me anymore.

Indigo Mom

Why "must" your child so as you say?  Your child should do as you ask, not as you "demand".  Rather than "YOU'LL DO AS I SAY RIGHT NOW"...you could say "honey, we're going to church so you need your jacket on.  If you don't put it on, we'll be late and you don't want to be late, do you?"  Keeps 'em human, ya know?

-----Six months ago when my 10 year old refused to put on his church clothes for church I grabbed his arm and told him he must do as I say-----

Now I know this was 6 months ago, but it IS possible to get your children to do what you ask without grabbing or hitting.  No child will respect you if you use physical force.  What do we say about big kids beating on little kids?  Pick on someone your own size.  Your children won't respect you, they'll fear you.  That's not nice, is it?  Learn "The Stink Eye".  My son is going through a "phase" again, but my kids UNDERSTAND that if they get The Stink Eye, they are TOAST!

Kids will respect you when you treat them as human beings.  While your choice of punishment IS your choice, I have to disagree with what you did.

It, however, is NOT abuse. Your child threatening you with social services is CLASSIC!  Schools are teaching our children that if our parents even so much as touch them in a way they don't like...they can call 911 and have them arrested.  They don't go "deeper" into this, that's where they drop it. Bullshit, if ya ask me.  My son, bless his heart, got the wake up call of a lifetime one day when he informed me of what he's learning at school.  I don't hit my kids, I refuse to, but I let him know that if he EVER calls the police on me for whacking him on the behind, (which I did a few years ago) I'll personally kick the living crap right out of him in front of the police officers JUST so they have a reason to arrest me.  Before the flames begin, I won't have to do that, I couldn't do that, I simply  needed to let him know that mama don't play THAT game.

Now, you need to counter these attacks by your kids by being as loving, as kind, as fatherly as you possibly can.  If they're hateful, just let them know you're sorry they feel this way, and they you will ALWAYS love them.  Never forget that.  I think kids need to hear that a bagillion times a day.  If the ex is breaking down their minds and programming them to hate you, telling them their mother is full of it, or whatever, won't work.  You MUST remain consistent with your love.

Oh, and to your lawyer?  Get another one.  This one is obviously an idiot.  There ARE things you can do...your lawyer just refuses.

oh, oh!  About their stepfather.  If he's a good guy, there's NOTHING wrong with them loving him, too.  Kids need loads of love.  They deserve it.  I'm NOT trying to be "mean" here, but if you hit them and he doesn't...they're going to edge towards him.



Have to disagee with you about some things in your post.

Trying to reason with a child gives them the asumption they have an option or even an opinion about matters You as the parent have already decided. I find trying to reason with someone that does not have the Ability to reason is an excersize in fruility. Doesn't work. Im my house I am the boss. There is No democracy. They do what I tell them becasue I Tell them. Period. (not that it always works with my son, but right now not much works with my son.)

I really believe that "Because I said so." is a very valid reason for why the kids have to do whatever it is I tell them to do. The simple reason, when they are adults and have jobs, their bosses will not Ask if they want to do a spicific job. They will be Told what to do and if they refuse, they will be fired. That is the way life is.

In my house in the morning when son is giving me a hard time getting dresses for school, telling him he has to hurry so as not to be late would be a waste of time. I tell him to get dressed or he will be dropped off at school in his underwear. And since I have grabbed him by the arm and got him almost to the door in his underwear, he knows I am not kidding.

This posters kids HAVE to listen because HE is the parent. He makes the decisions about what is best for them and Because he Loves them, he will make good decisions.

The Witch


Haggie and Indy,

I gotta say I agree with parts of both of your posts, and perhaps some mild disagreement with both as well.

"Because I said so," is not only appropriate, it is said for a reason.  Children, and even those well into their teens do not have the ability to understand many of the reasons behind the "no" ... just don't have the life experience OR the reasoning ability (or developmental ability) to understand.  The latter comes much later on in the teens and early 20's.  The former may never happen - LOL!

Asking your child to do something, IMO, is only showing them a courtesy you want them to learn and continue to use.  I ask ONCE.  After that it's TELL or consequence.

But-cha-know ...?  Parenting styles encompass a huge range.  If there was one style that worked consistently, I think we'd ALL use that one.  However because lifestyles, socio-economic environments vary so greatly, we all do "what works" for each of us ... some folks step well over the lines of what is appropriate IMO, and I'm sure that others have thought the same of me.

I think the issue with the original poster was the arm grabbing that allegedly left bruising.  While it isn't "true" abuse, it may have been a bit too much pressure.  But specifically for that instance, was it all that important for the kid to wear a jacket (unless it was required for where he was going)?  Natural consequence is a WONDERFUL teacher.  

[em]Mom:  Johnny, put your coat on before we leave - it's 20 degrees outside and snowing.




Mom: What do you think you can do the next time to keep from being so cold, Johnny?

Johnny: I guess wear my jacket.[/em]

I think as parents, particularly when it comes to clothing being warm enough or too warm, we tend to try to dictate.  Let 'em go and learn that if they wear jeans and sweatshirt when its 97 degrees with 68% humidity they're gonna be sweatin' to death all day - conversely if they wear short sleeves and shorts on a snowy day they'gonna freeze their fannies off.

And additionally, they have to learn that certain types of clothing are fine in one place, but not in another - don't want our kids wearing their rattiest stuff when we go a-Sunday-visitin', ya know?

The earlier they start learning by natural consequence the better off they are as adults - of course this type of thing doesn't include things like sticking your hand in the burning fireplace.  While that is natural consequence, it is also negligence on the part of the parent.  

That's why kids have "adults" as parents to keep them safe physically and mentally while still letting them grow and develop appropriate to their age.



>[em]Mom:  Johnny, put your coat on before we leave - it's 20
>degrees outside and snowing.
>Mom: What do you think you can do the next time to keep from
>being so cold, Johnny?
>I guess wear my jacket.[/em]

That works until they call DHS on ya for not making your child wear a coat.

I swear the government makes it hard to be a parent some days.


DHS?  For not wearing a jacket?  Ummmmm .... well, since DS is 24 it has been a while since I "dressed" a little one as the "parent" ... but I would be hard pressed to deal with ANYone from DHS/CPS/WHATEVER DEPT, if approached on this one.  

Ya know - it only takes one or two times for this type of natural consequence to sink in.  Surely to God DHS isn't in the habit of comin' down on a parent for one or two times ... God help us if they do!

OSD would NEVER get up for school.  After 3 years of going in and waking her up about 10 times every morning and then driving like a bat out of hell to get her to school on time, I had it.  Told DH NO MORE!  Told OSD NO MORE!  This kid was 15 then.

Well the tantrums and raging and whining and belly-aching went on for about 2 hours that night before she would leave it alone.  I told her to set her alarm and get up when it went off instead of turning it off and going back to sleep.  Her responsibility to get up.  

Well ... next morning, alarm goes off.  She turns it off.  She goes back to sleep.  I called the school and told them she was safely at home, explained the situation and told them when she woke up I'd drive her to school, but there would be NO EXCUSE WRITTEN BY ME.  She was AWOL.  She woke up about 10:30 a.m. in a rage!  Oh well.  I took her to school, and the consequence for her unexcused missing of 3 classes was 1 day of Saturday school.  She was never late again.

Indigo Mom

Ok, lemme explain.  

Kids NEED to have explanations.  "Because I said so" is nothing more than a power trip for parents.  All high and mighty, big and tough.  You'll do as "I" say or else.  

Kids don't understand that.  They want to know WHY.  Kid spits on the dog.  You say STOP THAT.  They say why?  You say BECAUSE I SAID SO.  Does that make them understand why spitting on the dog is naughty?  No.  Simply say "spitting on the dog is rude.  It hurts the dogs feelings, and makes his hair all sticky".  Every child would understand that.

Regardless of what anyone says, kids DO need to have some "power".  The deal with the guy grabbing the boy and screaming that he'll put his coat on BECAUSE HE SAID SO....is unacceptable.  (to me) What dad could have said was "I would really like it if you put your coat on".  That short sentence gives kids ALOT of power and makes them feel needed.  OMG...my dad needs me to do this...I'm gonna make him happy!

Children need choices.  Only two, though.  Never more than that.  If the child doesn't want to put his coat on, he also could have said "honey, you can put your coat on and be toasty warm, or you can leave it off and freeze...the choice is yours".  Kids love making up their minds.

We're discussing this "reasoning" thing as adults.  There are MANY things we can do with children to get the point across, help them make the right decisions, and grow into decent, law abiding citizens.  

Take away a childs choice, their need for explanations, and power...and we are left with kids we don't consider human beings.


All good points Indy ... and well taken.  BUT ... as kids get older they will ask the why's concerning things that are REALLY difficult to explain in a vocabulary or at a level they can understand.  Due to my age, gimme a month or two and I'll think of an example for yoou - LOL!

Choices?  YES!  Do you want peas or carrots as a vegetable for dinner tonight?  Do you want to wear your windbreaker or sweatshirt?  Do you want to shower or have a bath.

Decision making IS so critical to their sense of "separateness" from the parent, as well as learning to make choices and then sticking with them.  You choose - no griping.

I do agree with you that grabbing and screaming only adds fuel to the fire -- but I also know that under pressure, that may have had nothing to do with kid/s I've lost my cool too.  Another important thing to do with kids when this happens is to APOLOGIZE for losing it!  If the apology is done from the heart with sincerity, it is a valuable lesson for kids - you can make a mistake and ya don't get eaten!


Please contact me as soon as you can!
[email protected]

 I'm trying to get some documentation from all the people I can to try to make a difference.

I'm telling everybody....  I wrote a letter to Dr. Phill's show (the psychologist) and everybody that is going through a situation where the custodial parent is playing emotional games with the kids, should do the same.  Write him a letter. I'm pretty sure that this could be a good program for him.

You did what you thought it was right.  No judge over this world sgould do what this guy did to you, and it was an unfair decision.  As Indigomom told me, get a transcript because he can't tell you that he's not going to hear your case.


God Bless you!!

Indigo Mom

I guess I need to say that my kids are 5 and 8.  Also, this is the Indigo way, a way I've discovered works the best.  In fact, I reread the chapter about setting boundaries and guildelines.  

Another thing I MUST say, is that I've failed miserably this week using the Indy Guidelines on my son.  So, while I'm making suggestions to parents on "how" to handle little ones, I feel the need to say I am STILL struggling with them myself.

I don't want to sound as though I'm preaching, nor do I want to claim I know the first thing about teenagers...cause they're a whole 'nuther species I don't want to meet.