Behavior Issues - How to Transition

[tharper001]

I really need some major advice as a stepmother.  We are in a very heated custody battle right now with my 11 year old SD's mother.  I have, over the last six years, done lots of research and stood my husband's decision that he would be the one to tell his daughter what to do or not to do.

PROBLEM... While I have accepted the fact that, when his daughter is with us, that I am the third wheel... I am now faced with the real possibility that she may come to live with us 80% of the time instead of the 20% of the time that we have her now.  This creates a very serious problem for me because I cannot discuss our plans should she come to live with us.  My husband does not want to cross that bridge until the time comes -- probably because we can both get very emotional about it.  

My husband is very protective of his daughter.  He makes sure that anything she wants, she gets... or anything she wants to do, she gets to do... do you get my point?  My husband is a very good father and the child will definitely be better off with us than that loser of a mother that she has now.  However, I need to come up with a way that I can manipulate him into understanding that he does not have to be so protective of his daughter.

Example:  the other day, her grandfather (paternal) was down.  I couldn't go on the boat because I had just had Lasik done.  She put on a bathing suit that was awful -- the bottoms were so low, if they'd have been about 1/2 inch lower, you would have seen her camel toe.  (Keep in mind she's a pretty stout girl for 11 also -- not attractive in a two-piece, but has no shame in wearing them).  She asked me how I like it... I told her the top was cute, but the bottoms were too small.  I know if my husband had heard this, he would have said something to me in front of the child.  Then I get a call from a pay phone later that afternoon... scared me to death.  When I answered, it was a collect call with her saying "Don't answer this, it's just me playing around".  I called his cell phone and she answered.  I asked her why she was playing on a pay phone... that it concerned me greatly that someone was in trouble.  Then I asked him later that evening -- his response -- "She wanted to play, and that's what she got to do".

This happens all the time... this weekend, she showed up without a bathing suit... she knows we have the boat and if we're not on the boat, we're at the beach... I offered her the top to a swim suit of mine that she had worn (yes, she can wear some of my clothes -- pretty stout girl).  She said she would just wear a tank top.  I encouraged her that the bathing suit top would probably be more comfortable for knee boarding and tubing.  My husband so ever graciously pointed out to both of us that she could wear whatever she wanted to wear... end of story.

Now, these are trivial issues.  However, if she does come to live with us permanently, these things are going to have to change.  While they are trivial, my husband is still disrespecting me in front of her.  Yes, she has a bit of a weight issue... but I WILL NOT let her go in some of the swim suits and short shorts that she wears at her mother's house.  That is a reflection on my family... and we uphold a better esteem than that.  Her grades are in need of improving tremendously (c's, d's and f's)--to me -- that means limited TV and computer time, and more time focusing on the homework.  To my husband -- she doesn't have to do it now... she can do it later -- then she'd be in there at 9:00 pm on a Sunday night doing homework for Monday morning.  NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.  

I know he says we will work things out once we know for sure if she's going to come live with us.  I beg to differ -- simply because my husband takes the stance that he, and only he, knows what is best for his daughter.  I know this, and it scares me to death.  Yes, for the child's best interest, our house is stable and it's a much more stable environment that encourages success.   And, even if we didn't get things worked out, this child is still much better off living with her father than with her mother.  But, for my sanity, I would appreciate any advice that one could give as to how to deal with this problem.  It is my house too, and especially if she is living with us, I should have every right to have some say so in how she is raised.  While the mother of this child is the most worthless human I've ever met, some of the things the father does isn't helping the child either.  I just have to get him to see it in some shape, form or fashion.

We are planning family counseling for everyone.  I just wish I could find a counselor that would actually counsel.  I have been to two counselors -- one licensed, and one a PhD, and I simply felt like I had sat down to a bitch session, but never really got anything out of it.  My husband and I went about a year or so ago for marriage counseling... then I went on my own because we did have some rocky times a while ago.  But now that the ever closing court date is approaching, I'm faced with some serious doubts about how we, as a family, could make this transition and come to agreements on discipline and structure for the best interests of this child.  The child has never known discipline or struction in her current environment.  Someone has to stand their ground and be firm where this child will have a chance at life.

Thanks for any input!

[Kitty C.]

The 'incidences' are trivial, but the 'issue' is not, tharper.  The issue is that he is undermining you right in front of her and that is a MAJOR no-no.  Like it or not, and regardless of the outcome of your court case, the issue must be addressed now.  It's gone too far in different instances already (the phone thing), and for your DH to totally disregard how you feel about it and to undermine your authority in your own home has serious implications.

No matter how you both feel about it, it must be addressed now.  I've go the feeling that the only reason why your DH doesn't want to address it before the hearing is because he doesn't want it implemented until AFTER she comes to live with you, so as not to 'scare her off', so to speak.  

Maybe not counseling, but what about a parenting class, specifically geared to discipline and blending households?  Even DS's therapist has recommended a parenting class for DH and I, but it's intent is to show us/DH how to effectively discipline, and tho we're both over 40, I have no problem doing that.  It's a different matter with DH, but eventually I know he will do it, as he has a lot of respect for DS's therapist.

[tharper001]

I would love to find a good parenting class in our area to attend.  Last year, we attended a class that was suggested by our attorney.  Unfortunately, it had nothing to do with what type of class we needed.  It was a parenting class for those getting divorced and how to cope with each other for the sake of the child.  Had nothing to do with us and the need for discipline instructions.

I do love my husband dearly... but when it comes to his daughter... he becomes a completely different individual.  Yes, I've known this and him and I have had many arguments over the differences... I finally backed down a year or so ago and now I simply express my disagreement with what he does... but don't force the issue.  And... even with a parenting class, my husband is always going to take the high road that only he knows what is best for his daughter.

Like with the phone calls... I asked him if he instructed his daughter that she does need to call him and not go two weeks without it.  He informed me that he did not because he was not going to put his daughter in that uncomfortable situation of having to call him.  First of all, we have an 800 number that she can use.  Second of all, her mother is not bright enough to check the phone bill -- even though he seems to think that's what she is telling his daughter.  If that were my child... I wouldn't be in this position in the first place.  But that child would know that they better pick up that phone and call me.  

If anyone has had experience with family or parenting classes that we can take in Tampa, Florida (the home of the Stanley Cup Champs!!!!), I'd greatly appreciate it.  I am researching what is available now, but it's always nice if someone has previous experience.

Thanks so much.  I agree my husband and I need to discuss issues.  When the child comes over the next time, and during her summer vacation with us, I'm going to make sure I take notes and discuss the issues with my husband privately.  I hate to point out every little thing, but that's the only way I can get him to understand my view point.  Hopefully, during the summer months we can get things worked out where I will no longer be undermined.  I might not have my own children yet, but I certainly know that children need structure and discipline... and this child has had none from either side.  And that, my friends, is going to have to change.

[smtotwo]

But like Kitty said  I nipped it in the bud!!  This is my home and neither DH nor the steps will show that kind of disrespect for me in MY OWN HOME!!

After a few very heated discussions, we now parent together.  DH had different rules for his boys than for my bio son.  That has also changed.
We are ONE family not two partial families.  What goes for one now goes for all.

[hagatha]

TH,

I would suggest disengaging during the summer visit. Then maybe your DH will get a clue . . .

"Disengaging"

Please keep in mind that "Disengaging" is NOT for everyone. Many of you have DHs who are TRULY supportive - which is not the same as DHs who only THINK they're supportive.

I've found that for my friends with whom I've shared this, understanding some background is sometimes critical for real "Disengaging" to begin. A lot of this is opinion, intuition, and a lot is also experience. Please keep in mind that the people in my "model" are not psychotic. They are relatively normal people with good intentions, husbands and wives who love each other and want to stay married, in SPITE of their step kids!

I believe that men and women convey different facets of life to their children. Women tend to be concerned with socialization: manners, morals, respect, appreciation, cleanliness, thoughtfulness, etc, as well as physical and emotional health. Men tend to be concerned with results: touchdowns, batting averages, spelling bees, "accomplishments" in general. In normal (not critically dysfunctional) nuclear families, this arrangement works pretty well. The children develop bonds with their parents which permit the parents to maintain the "moral authority" to deal with their kids. Most of these men think they've been great parents, and have terrific kids who could be loved by anyone. Then they get divorced and eventually marry us second-wives, expecting everything to function in the same way that it did in the first marriage. The problem is, they have no idea beyond their own personal, limited "parenting" what is involved in raising kids. One stepmom on one of the boards made the remark "I just don't understand how his 4 year old son can be sitting directly between him and the TV, and he doesn't see the kid playing with a lighter!" I believe he doesn't see because he's never had to. There has always been a woman in his life who takes care of "that stuff."

When we as stepmoms come into the lives of these people, many of us already mothers to our own biokids, we assume that we can expand our mothering role to include our new SKs, intending to keep on doing what we've been doing. Even those who have never had children of their own have those "mothering genes." Our problem is that we don't have the bonding with these kids that is required to give us the "moral authority" to parent our SKs.
The only way we can get that "authority" is through DH, and he must give it to us by expecting and demanding that his kids respond to us with obedience and respect, or at least respectful behavior. THAT is what is meant by a supportive DH. Most of them THINK they are supportive, and many of US think they are supportive. But unless they are willing to discipline their children every single time they speak disrespectfully to us, or ignore us, or disobey us, they are giving their children permission to continue and sometimes escalate, this behavior. And because our DHs have NEVER had to be mothers, they don't know what we're talking about when we try to get their help. They are still being the same parents they were when they were married to their exes, things worked out ok there, so they assume that the problem is US!

The more we "nag" and point out what's wrong with their kids, the more convinced they become that at the least, we have no parenting skills, and at the worst, we are child abusers. The more we are determined that these kids ARE GOING TO MIND US, the more parenting we do. And the more parenting we do, the less our DHs have to do. Which is exactly the way they want it. They would rather we didn't scream so much, but we're getting the job done (the kids brush their teeth when we are red in the face, they go to bed when we are spewing spittle). Dad can just keep on being a father, which means he doesn't fool with this stuff. But he's still thinking we're crazy, and can't understand why we're so mean to his kids. In addition, our "criticism" of his kids is seen as a criticism of him.

DH is not a mother, has never been a mother, and doesn't know what it means or requires to be a mother. DH is content being the same parent he has always been, and thinks his kids are fine the way they are. He's just as confused as we are about why we're having so many problems with our SKs, but in his heart, he believes that we are at fault.

Now we come to the kids themselves. Here we have children who, for the most part, have been raised by two parents with whom they are bonded and for whom they accept the power of their bioparents authority. We stepmoms come into their lives with no bond and with no authority. But we blindly assume the role of mother in our own homes, and all the responsibility involved. After the "honeymoon" with the kids is over, if we even have that period of peace and tranquility, the kids begin to test the waters. Now, keep in mind, they do this with their bioparents too, but quickly submit to the authority of these people for whom they have respected, admired, and depended on since birth. They look to DH to see what they can get by with, because they have no intention of submitting to our authority until they are made to do so. DH has never involved himself in these struggles between his ex and his kids, because she can handle it herself. He doesn't see the problem. The kids don't know that he can't see the problem. They think he is giving them unspoken permission to defy us. And so they do. The struggles become more angry, more bitter, more frustrating.

And another amazing thing occurs. In some cases, we give these kids their first real taste of power. With their parents, they are willing to submit, because if nothing else, they fear the loss of their parents' approval. They feel no such need to have our approval. They find that with the mere shrug of a shoulder or a rolling of the eyes that they can turn a big strong adult into a raging maniac. By this time, we have become so frustrated, everything they do infuriates us. And in getting by with disrespectful behavior (and they get by with it because DH doesn't stop it), they are encouraged to even greater heights of disrespect, and they hone their cunning on us, gaining an even greater sense of power. We end up handing these kids tremendous power over us, on a silver platter, and they love it.

There we are, doing all the work (laundry, grocery shopping, cooking, chauffeuring, supplying needs, the list is endless),doing everything reasonable to maintain our family as we had envisioned, and these kids are treating us like bugs on the soles of their shoes. We are raging to our DHs who can't understand why we're so angry, and we're wondering what we're doing here, working our rears off, trying to raise these children, feeling abused and unappreciated by DH AND his kids. Sometimes we think about divorce.
Now it's time to disengage.

In order to successfully disengage, you have to accept some realities.

They are:

Your SKs are not your children.
You are not responsible for overcoming their previous "raising."
You are not responsible for what kind of people they are.
You are not responsible for what kind of people they become.
You are not obligated to become an abused member of the household just because you married their dad.
You are not responsible for raising your SKs.
All the responsibility belongs to your DH.
Your DH is not a mother.
Your DH is not going to raise his children the way you want him to.
Your SKs are not going to turn out the way they would if DH supported you.


What all this means is this: You must stop parenting your SKs. You must stop telling them what is expected of them. You must stop disciplining them. You must turn over all responsibility for them to your DH. You must allow DH to make whatever mistakes he makes.

But first, you must explain to DH and SKs what is happening. This is what you say: "Everyone is unhappy, our home is miserable, and I'm completely frustrated and angry all the time. You kids are angry and frustrated with me, and it's getting worse. Someone has to do something about this, and I decided that it will be me. I have decided that I will no longer be responsible for getting you to bed on time, or getting you up in the mornings. I will not tell you to wash your hands before dinner, and I will not tell you to brush your teeth or take a bath. (You must list all those things for which you have assumed responsibility, whatever they are). I am no longer going to do anything that will give you the opportunity to treat me with disrespect. In the future, if you need anything, you must ask your dad. I will no longer take responsibility for (whatever, getting your school supplies, shopping for your clothes, doing your laundry, taking you to basketball practice, etc.) What I hope to accomplish is for us to begin to get along with each other, and the only way I know to do that is to let your dad be the parent."

And every time they ask you for something, or ask permission for something, you say "Go ask your dad." Your SKs may end up missing out on some terrific things because of your Disengaging, but it was a choice they made when they decided to make your life miserable. Never give them the opportunity to treat you disrespectfully.

Many of you may be saying, does all this mean I have no rights? Absolutely not. You must choose your battles, and to disengage, your battles should be about those things that DIRECTLY affect you. For example, you have a right to keep your home with the degree of neatness and cleanliness that you desire (just leave the SKs rooms alone and concentrate on the communal areas). You can say, "From now on, I expect everyone to put their stuff away by bedtime. Since I will no longer be asking you to do it because I don't want to argue with you, anything that is left out after 9:00 will be disposed." Period, no discussion, just do it. If it's important to DH for his kids to keep their "stuff," HE will parent his children, or do it himself. "If you don't clear the table after dinner, I will not set a place for you at the next meal." Period, no discussion, just do it If it's important to DH for his kids to eat, HE will parent his children, or do it himself. "If you leave your dirty clothes on the floor in the bathroom, they will be disposed." Are you getting the idea? If DH chooses to do his children's chore, let him. The aim is NOT to straighten out your SKs deficiencies, it's to get your DH involved with his children, in whatever way he chooses, and to lessen your work load. If the kids are going to be unappreciative, let them be unappreciative of their dad.

You see, the REAL problem is not between you and your SKs, it's between you and your DH. These children are HIS responsibility and if he wants good things for them, he will parent them. If he doesn't care (believe me, he really does!), why should you beat your head against the wall?

My son ALWAYS had a bedtime, my SSs NEVER had a bedtime. Now I tend to my son and let DH tend to his. If he wants them to get a good night's sleep, he will parent them. If it's not important to him, I don't make it my concern.

My DH goes to work at 5:30 AM, which leaves me the task of getting everyone up and ready for school. It used to be a nightmare getting my younger SS up, he would growl and yell and scream and roll over and go back to sleep until I was screaming my lungs out, jerking the covers off. Every day started like that and I was miserable every evening, thinking about my next morning's task. So....I just stopped. I told DH to get him an alarm clock. And I told DH that if he wanted to help his son start his day well, he might consider making sure that SS goes to bed at a reasonable hour, but that I would no longer make it my concern. SS missed 2 days of school because he wouldn't get up and I refused to make a second trip to take him there. DH decided to parent his son. He did it without being home by using consequences if his son did not get up in time to get ready for school.

The point is this: DH must decide what is important to HIM. You must be willing to put up with some degree of inconvenience to "allow" him to parent his children. But whatever inconvenience you suffer will be minor compared to the conflict that might be part of your life right now. My DH stepped up to the plate. Your DH might not. But that's HIS decision. Don't expect him to agree with your "new position." He doesn't agree with your current position. Don't expect him to like what you are doing - or to be more precise - not doing. The less YOU do, the more HE must do and that will not make him happy. You must remember that he has no right to expect more parenting from you than he is willing to do himself.

You may be thinking, this is nuts! We agreed to be "parents" to each other's children. Yes, but he also agreed to be a parent to his OWN children. None of this means that you can't do ANYTHING. It's very likely that DH will need your help. That's OK. The issue here is that DH must ASK you for your help, instead of what you've been doing - assuming the responsibility and being unappreciated for it.

When DH needs something done that he can't do himself (a ride for one of the kids while he's a work, for example), first, you have already told the kids "Go ask dad." So DH is REQUIRED to become involved in his children's lives. He now must THINK ABOUT what's involved in raising his kids, and we all know it's a lot of work. And you can agree to help out, only if DH asks. BUT, to disengage, you must be willing to withdraw your agreement to help IF the kids, between now and the event, treat you disrespectfully! And you must refuse to assist next time if DH and the kids don't say "Thank you." You also have a RIGHT to have your efforts appreciated.

When you begin to value yourself in this whole relationship by expecting to be treated with respect and appreciation, you'll feel a lot better. When I say "to value yourself" I mean that if your efforts are not appreciated - don't do it! Sometimes the SKs will think, "Well, we're in the car on the way to the ballgame, now I'm home free to be disrespectful!" BAM! They smart off to you! Well, turn that car around and take them back home - don't raise your voice or act insulted or point out how ungrateful they are. Just say "I'm sorry you've decided to treat me disrespectfully. I must withdraw my offer to take you."

BTW, these are also good methods of getting your OWN children's respectful behavior!

I know, from my own experience, just how hard it is to "let go." But it's up to you to make the choice - "Am I going to continue to live in this awful situation, or am I going to do something about it." While you fear what will happen to everyone when you "disengage," as if the family will fall apart, you will be surprised at the change in your own life. I can't guarantee that everything will turn out the way it has for me, but I can guarantee that you will no longer feel angry, frustrated, resentful, and hurt. The HARDEST part is giving up the need to straighten out these kids and "change" them into the children YOU want them to be.


Remember . . . KARMA is a Wonderful Thing!!!!!

[tharper001]

In a way, I have done that.  The problem here... the child doesn't even have a mother that is willing to "mother" her.  The father and mother were never married.  This child has never been shown what true family life is.  And no, I don't have my own children -- but you can believe -- when we do, I will dare my husband to tell me that only he knows what is best for his kids.

It's a very sad situation for this child.  She's overweight, she's been taught to wear skimpy clothes (which is highly embarrassing for me when we are around others that we know), she gets bad grades in school, she's never had bed time, she can slap another kid in school or get into an argument, etc., and has never been disciplined for that.  She's being taught that her s**t don't stink -- if you know what I mean.  And what's another kicker -- the father can't wait to point out flaws in other children, whether it's our friends' children, or the child down the street that his daughter can't get along with, etc.  Children that he doesn't even have that much contact with.  But -- his daughter is the shining star... he will bend over backyard to make sure she gets what she wants, does what she wants and acts like she wants to.  That's the part that gets me.

It's almost as though when she is with us, that she is the other adult in the relationship and that I'm the kid.  Yes, I have a couple of bad habits -- I do smoke (although not in the house--I'm a smoker but I don't want my prized possession to stink) and I do have at least a glass of wine a night, if I'm in the mood.  He cannot hesitate to point out to me that I told him I was going to quit smoking, but I haven't yet, and that I don't brush the cat, and that I should vacuum up the kitty litter, and that I should clean the house, instead of being in the garden (he always rearranges everything anyway, so I leave that up to him).  He does do things around the house because he works out of the house.  But I get so sick of hearing that I need to do this, or clean that, or put this away, etc., etc., when I don't hear him telling his daughter any of this.

He did make her clean her room this last weekend.  My husband will not put up with making a mess, because he is such a neat freak.  That is what bothers me the most -- is that he treats me like some child.  True, I'm 9 years younger, but I'm not that young.  I'm in my 30's for goodness sake.  And we get along just peachy, unless she's there.  Why would I not resent her like crazy??????

It's such a tough situation.  I just hope one day, I can have my own children and really show him that I am not stupid when it comes to kids.

Thanks for your advice!  Good luck to you!

[DK]

Where in the Tampa area?  I am in Clearwater.  Maybe I can help you find a couselor.  Can ask my DH's attorny and my stepsons phychologist for some names.

[tharper001]

We're in NW Tampa... It would be so refreshing to find a counselor that actually counseled, instead of it seeming like a bitch session.  My husband is going to need some good guidance -- not that he will follow it, but it may be good to hear it from someone else, and my SD is going to be in desperate need to learn (at 11 years of age) new social skills and how to get along with other kids and how to respect people.  And I'm certainly going to need some major help with the changes in my life that's going to occur!

We would like to find a counselor in Tampa, but truly, we are only about 20 minutes from Clearwater.

Thanks for any input.

[LizaLou1]

Hagatha read my mind.  I immediately thought of the Disengage article when I read the original post.

I intrinsically see the value of disengaging and it has helped over the spring break.  But, my problem is my DH does not disengage when it comes to "my children" who live with us.  I somehow feel guilty for not carrying more of the load when his kids visit.  He doesn't just dump my kids' problems on me and walk away ---which is what I have been forced to do with his kids.  So I have a fairness issue.  I realize my children were younger when he came into our lives so his "authority" was established sooner.  Mine do resent DH from time to time, but it's not like resentment I get from DH's teenagers.

I suppose it's on my mind, since his kids arrive Thursday for 7 long weeks.  They are "pile people" who junk up my house because they either have no "raising" or just to irritate me.  Hubby is a great guy, but his level of cleanliness is far different from mine – he doesn't even see their junk.  I told him the same rules will apply for his kids, if they leave it out it goes in the trash.  If it's good enough for mine it should be good enough for his.

 It also amazes me that they'd rather eat Kraft Easy Mac than home cooked hamburgers, pork chops or Lasagna.  They even eat Easy Mac for breakfast.     It gets real irritating to come home from work, cook dinner only to find out they ate junk right before I got home so they don't want dinner when it's on the table.  At spring break, I went out and bought a bunch of food because they are growing teenagers – all they wanted was Easy Mac and Hot Pockets.  I told DH I wouldn't do that again and I have not.  

In anticipation of his kids, I asked DH was there a difference in controlling one's environment and being in control of one's environment.  He decided it was a trick question and refused to answer.  I have expressed my concerns and DH said he'd support me.  So, pray for us.

LizaLou

[Kitty C.]

The food problem is easy to solve, just make sure it isn't available for them to eat!  And if they pitch a fit, tell them YOU will not contribute to the inevitable health and weight problems they will get if they continue to eat that way.  And that those kinds of foods are no longer allowed in your home just for that reason.

SS was pretty despondent when I told him no more mac and cheese.  He has told us that his doc has put him on a diet, but from what he's told us of what he eats at PBFH's I can't see much of a change, LOL!  So every time he's with us, all he wants is ice cream, hot dogs, M&C, anything battered, fried, or frozen.  All of which either aren't allowed in our home at all, or on a rare occasion.  He begs and badgers PBFH so much that she gives in just to shut him up, so his so-called 'diet' has a LONG way to go.   he definitely knows better than to try that with me, LOL!  The poor kid gets all red in the face just running in from left field, so it's pretty apparent he needs to lose some weight and get more exercise.   But when the PBFH won't even let him ride bike down the street (private) unless she can watch him like a hawk, he's relegated to his N64.

Sorry, turned into a bitch session, but it really torques me to watch these idiot parents who can't even stand up to their kids and BE a parent and teach them to make healthy choices!  And their own paranoia is so strong, it brings on ill effects on their kids!