More on Terri Schiavo

[kiddosmom]

Exactly what I am trying to get at.... They have had 13 yrs of medical evaluations, there is no miracle cure. This woman needs to not suffer anymore. And be greived.
AND then they need to go after the FUSOB that did it to her.

[MKx2]

[em]"Pull the plug, turn off the machines, stop tube feedings, allow us to pass with some semblence of dignity."[/em]

Amen to that PD ... couldn't agree with you more.

My Grandmother passed away according to her wishes - in her own bed, in her own room, in my sister's home, with my sister and I with her for her last 10 days.  It was the way she wanted to do it.  She had a wonderful gerontologist who had been unable to fulfill the same wishes for his own mother, and understood the needs of our family.  We had Hospice come in several times a day ... her passing was filled with dignity, peace and the love of her two granddaughters.

But taking the emotional side out of it ... PD you're right.  At this point nothing short of a divine intervention would be able to bring this poor woman back to any semblance of "quality of life."

JMO

[nosonew]

Regardless of the facts of the case (which I am not aware of, thought I read somewhere that she had been in a car accident), however, regardless of CAUSE of injuries, (and why isn't he in jail if he did do this???)

Point is, I have been a nurse for 11 years, have seen horrid things, and this could also turn into a Jack Kivorkian (sp?) discussion, but I think patients, who have irreversible sustained horrific pain, are terminal due to illness which will make family destitute due to the dying process (which can take a long time), and those who are in a chronic vegetative state with no real sense of improvement to which they will lead a productive life of ANY KIND (if paralyzed, many are still productive if their BRAINS still function), should be allowed to choose death.

I think if the husband got out of this situation, turned it over to Terri's parents, after a year or two they may choose to let her rest in peace for her well-being.  They may be so caught up in the "Get him back for what he did" and "He's not getting any money out of her death", that they are not looking at the bigger picture.

St. Paulies girl, I appreciate your stance, however, have you ever been in the position to make this decision, see it wanting to be made? Yet, because of "ethics" the person is MADE TO SUFFER?  I hope you never do.  


Nosonew

[StPaulieGirl]

Why isn't he in jail?  Well just check out all the stories about judicial misconduct on this site, and you'll get a clue.  Judges suck major ass.

Terri's guardian has orchestrated all treatment, which I presume includes pain relief.  She's screwed, glued, and and tattooed.

I am not one of those nutty pro lifers; however I believe that we as a society have to take care of those who are like Terri, lest we lose what is left of our humanity.  Terri doesn't have  to suffer.  When God calls her home, she'll go to Him.  In the meantime, we as a society, need to make sure that people's basic rights are not violated.

[Indigo Mom]

She's a human who's been horribly abused to get her to this place, and still being horribly abused by her maniac.  

She responds positively to her mother, negatively to her maniac.  Nurses have written statements as to her "state" after the maniac is in her room.  Doors closed, mind you, and no one is "allowed" in there while he's "visiting".  Sweating profusely, hands clenched, definitely frightened.  

This whole debate is about what "we" would want for ourselves.  Who's to say she's miserable?  Who's to say she is in such a state that would warrant her to be killed?  We can't say that.  We will NEVER know what it's like to be in HER mind.  She could be perfectly happy, though to me and you, that would be surprising.  We're basing it on our feelings.  I can't imagine wanting to live like she is...but then again, I've never been there.  

I believe her maniac should be removed from being her Guardian, her parents need to be labeled with it.  They need to do EVERY imaginable test to determine the how's and the why's.  Would you be happy not knowing "how" your daughter turned into this?  Then, after all is said and done, they need to bring her home.  They need to do whatever it takes to make her comfortable, then, when it's time, she can go.

She's already been taken off life support and she lived.  What does that tell you?  It's NOT her time to go!  If she was a vegetable, unable to live off support, she surely wouldn't have survived being removed, would she?  I tell ya, dad, we go when we're supposed to, and not before.  

Look at the big picture....why is she still here?  What is she teaching us?  Ponder that for a while....and then....

Imagine peanut in this situation.  Can you honestly say you'd rather her die, a slow, miserable, dehydrating, starving death than to live less than "perfect".  Shooting your own child in the stomach with a tech 9, allowing her to bleed to death would be more humane than doing what her maniac wants to do.

Terri, being in the state she is...whatever it is...is teaching this world a very valuable lesson.  We just hafta open our eyes and see it.  

And remember, dad...some people with terminal illnesses have been known to "hold on" for YEARS after they were told they would die.  Don't you ever wonder why?  I know hubs dad held on for the longest time...he should have died MONTHS before he did.  I think he stayed alive waiting for his son to come home.....when he realized he wasn't coming, he passed on.  Do you believe in that?  Terri may be waiting for justice.

Oh, and since I wrote this offline, I have to comment on one part of your post....

-----In our family, ie, my mom, dad, brothers, sister, myself, SO, we all know our wishes in this type of situation. Pull the plug, turn off the machines, stop tube feedings, allow us to pass with some semblence of dignity.-----

If there was foul play, do you think the plug would be pulled immediately?

[Indigo Mom]

You've GOT to go to the website and read it through.  

//www.terrisfight.org

Go to "court documents", and on the right side of the screen, you should read all the "important items".  

skim through the website and you'll understand right quick like why there's a big "fuss".

[nosonew]

Okay, question.  What do you consider life support?  I consider anything that sustains life as life support, ie: ventilator, IV feedings, IV fluids, IV meds, tube feedings, dialysis, etc..

If it were not for our advances in medicine, we wouldn't have tube feedings, thus she would have died many years ago.  So, is she or is she not on life support?

Are dialysis patients on life support?  If they do not get dialysis, they will die within approx. 4 weeks.  If you are not fed you died within 2-3 weeks.  What is the difference?  

Nosonew

[kiddosmom]

I Agree with Terry getting the justice she deserves!
I agree her husband should not be the Gaurdian.
I also believe that without the feeding tube she would be able to go home to God.
NO I do NOT believe she should have to starve to death.

[Peanutsdad]

While I can appreciate the thoughts and atitudes about the humane or inhumane ways we either keep people alive OR let them die, I still stand by my thoughts.

In the medical community the last few years have seen our ability to prevent death go forward in leaps and bounds. It far outstripes our compassion, ethics and societal mores. It has been recognized AND there have been many conferences nationwide on these very issues, ie the ability to prevent death and recognizing there are times we shouldnt.

You see, so long as the brain stem is functional, perhaps 75% of the time, we CAN prevent death so long as no other life threatening injuries are concurrant.

Now,, just a little bit of medical fact , an intact brain stem, a body will twitch, exhibit SOME motor reflex, exhibit SOME fight or flight REFLEX action, YET, contain absolutely no higher brain function.  In otherwords, there IS twitching, mouth movement, relaxation of muscles with soothing touches, and tension with fear response.  The heart will beat, the lungs will breath.

YET, a sea cucumber has more self awareness. It at least, can motor along and obtain its own food. The brain stem patient,, cannot. That patient will never eat, will never speak, will never do anything that approximates any activity that goes along with daily life.

EEG studies have shown time and time again, with loss of higher brain function, there is no PERSON, simply,, a body. It is perhaps the worst death of all, because it doesnt quite let that patient die, nor does it allow them to live.

These patients are significantly different from "shut ins". Shut ins are patients that have suffered an injury to the brain that prevents them from moving, or communicating, yet EEG shows that higher brain functions of the personality are intact. Yes I've seen life support withdrawn on shut ins. Family members begged that their loved one be allowed to pass and it was done.

I've also seen the patients that families cannot let go of.  Of the shut ins, I honestly believe, some of them I've seen die, was simply the patient willed themselves to die. After a couple of years in that state, imagine your mental state? Its a proven fact, isolate a human, and they will go insane. Withdraw stimulation, the mind loses its anchor in reality. Can any of you honestly say you prefer that for someone you love?? We see a well documented phenomena called "ICU psychosis" occur in patients kept in an ICU in as little as a week. Try if you can, to imagine being in a blank shut in condition for YEARS, not a week, not a month, but years.

Now, THAT is with shut ins. Terri is not a shut in, she is a brain stem. EEG tests have confirmed that over and over.

So, while our scientific ability has raced forward, our diginity and humanty have lagged behind, THAT is what has failed Terri,,our ability to show mercy and compassion and wisdom in knowing when to let go.
Our laws do not really address this condition, for either the criminal that put them there nor the ability of medical staff to ease the passing. Here is the "catch22",, IF Terri's husband is responsible for her condition, AND we allow her to die now, THEN he cannot be prosecuted for manslaughter nor murder. Under the law, if WE allow her to die, then HE didnt kill her. Yes, I've seen this type of case before.

Yes , my family has discussed pretty much any situation regarding life support. to quote from our own directives; " In any condition be it accidental or criminal which results in brain injury which will reasonably prevent the patient from regaining consciousness or self awareness, you are hereby directed to cease all rescusistative efforts or withdraw lifesupport. "

I think that pretty much says it. Of course, there is a lot more on it, but I dont think I will rewrite it here LOL.

[MKx2]

PD ... thank you so much for an excellent post on this subject.

I have experienced sudden death by myocaridal infarction with my father, death of my step-father and step-mother with pancreatic and brain cancers respectively and of course my grandmother who died peacefully and with dignity of old age.  In my grandmother's case, her physician said that with a feeding tube and other means she would probably live another 2 to 3 months, but ONLY that long by artificial means.

My druthers on this one?  Like my dad or grandmother ... if not that way then pull the plugs on any life sustaining means, or leave me alone with enough drugs to inject myself should it be terminal illness.

[getting ready for the flames with the next comment ....] We show more compassion to our dogs and cats when they reach a point in their lives where there is no quality but only pain, by taking them to our vet and euthanizing them.  I'm not saying we should euthanize people ... but our final days and hours should be filled with dignity and love.

JMO and I'm stickin' by it.