Doctor Issues

[Sanche99]

We have a potential legal issue coming up with my husband's daughter.  She is 16, and has been living with us since last November.  She is now spending the summer with her mother.  They have joint legal custody, but her mother still has physical custody.  

Her mother wants to take DBM to get the HPV vaccine.  DH is against it.  After explaining what it actually is (NOT a vaccine against cancer at all, simply a vaccine for a couple of strains of an STD that sometimes might cause cancer), DBM doesn't want it, either.  I work at a different doctor's office, and they said that if mom was at the appointment and wanted the kid to get it, they would give it to her.  

Anyone know if there are any legal steps we can take in order to make sure DBM doesn't get this shot?

[Kitty C.]

Why don't you want your SD to have the vaccine?  Is it only because it won't completely prevent cancer?  Seems to me that if it even prevents certain STD's, it would be worthwhile.  Let's just say I'd have given anything for it to have been around about 20-25 years ago, then I maybe wouldn't have had to go through so much pain and discomfort.  

Many vaccines only cover a very narrow field of disease.  Practically all the childhood immunizations are like that.  But we still get them, for us and our children, because we know that to do otherwise could potentially put us in harm's way of getting seriously ill or dying.

Another new vaccine available is for older teens and young adults against bacterial meningitis.  No, it won't protect my son from infectious mononucleosis (which is spread in the same fashion), but it still could save his life.  And that's all I need to convince me.

And, just in case you were wondering, I've been in healthcare for 20-25 years.  I like to stay informed and will research information if I feel I need to know more, so if there's something about this vaccine that I haven't heard about, I'd be very interested in learning.

[dipper]

I also dont understand why your dh would be against this. DBM is probably reacting to what she is hearing.  

I have two daughters...14 and 11.  When I heard of this vaccine, you bet I asked them about it.  Why take the chance that they will have cancer at some point from something that could have been prevented?  I wish I could get the vaccine, but I'm too old.  My 14 year old is taking the vaccine, my youngest doesnt want a shot.  That's okay..she has time.

Our doctor said that some people think its a way of saying go have sex...which its not.  She said the concept is the same as giving your toddler the hepatitis B vaccine.   I look at it like this...all those vaccinations I took my children for.....the risk wasnt great that my children would ever have those diseases but I did it becaus that slight risk was much too great for me to contemplate my children's suffering.  Same here with the HPV.

If you want to pursue this in court, you need actual reasons other than what has been stated so far.  For example, is there any harm?

It may make you feel better to know the shot is given in three injections over a six month period....so, if its not followed through she will not be protected anyway.

[mistoffolees]

To answer your question, you'd have to file in court to block her getting the vaccine. I doubt if it's anything you could do yourself as it would be fairly complicated with a lot of issues and probably a number of expert witnesses.


Having said that, I would encourage you to reconsider your position. While there's a lot of innuendo going around, the FACTS are:
1. The vaccine is quite effective (but not perfect) in preventing one type of cancer - a particularly tragic cancer that occurs when a woman is often raising a family.
2. The vaccine does NOT increase the frequency of sexual activity (in spite of innuendo otherwise from various religious groups).
3. The vaccine does not have serious side effects.
4. Even if your daughter does not have premarital sex, she could still get HPV (and after that, cancer) from her husband since a large number of men have the virus and do not know. This vaccine will reduce the risk greatly.

Your daughter will or will not choose to have premarital sex (and, like it or not, an overwhelming percentage of people choose to do so). The vaccine is extremely unlikely to change that decision. Whatever she does, it may well save her life. So what argument are you going to present to the court to say that it's in your daughter's best interest to NOT get the shot?

Even if I assume that you don't care a bit about my personal thoughts, I think you're picking a losing battle from the court's perspective.

[Sanche99]

I don't think that is really the issue, but I will answer it.

We don't want her to have the vaccine because, simply put, we don't trust that it is safe or necessary.  It is very new.  The company that makes the vaccine has been very dishonest in its presentation of what the vaccine is and what it is for:  It is being hailed as a "cancer vaccine," when in fact, it is NOT.  It is a vaccine that MAY help prevent a FEW strains of a STD that MIGHT cause cancer SOMETIMES.  Of course, we don't know that it doesn't CAUSE uterine cancer, or ovarian cancer, or any other number of things.  

The vaccine also has had a HUGE number of serious adverse reactions for the short time it's been available.  THREE girls have DIED from getting it, and numerous others have ended up in the hospital.  Most common, from reading through the reported reactions, are cardiac issues and fainting.  Some girls have had seizures, so there are neurological issues involved.  

It's just not worth the risk.  Much, MUCH more important are regular pap tests, which will pick up abnormal cervical cells no matter if they are caused by HPV or not.


>Practically all the childhood immunizations are like that.
>But we still get them, for us and our children, because we
>know that to do otherwise could potentially put us in harm's
>way of getting seriously ill or dying.

That's not entirely correct.  My son, who is 15 months old, is being immunized on OUR time frame, not the government's.  There are also vaccines he will not be receiving, such as Hep B, Hep A, Varivax, and the MMR.  Believe me, I know all about vaccines.  I work in a doctor's office, in the pediatric's department.  

Like I said, though, that's not the issue.  The issue is that both parents have legal custody.

[Sanche99]

>I also dont understand why your dh would be against this. DBM
>is probably reacting to what she is hearing.  

Well, yes, probably.  Of course, she is much better informed about this vaccine than the average teenager.  Unlike her mother, who honestly believes it is a vaccine for CANCER (which it's not), she knows what it is, what it's for, and what the risks are.  I believe that if she is old enough to make the decision on birth control, she is old enough to make the decision on what foreign material she takes into her body.

>I wish I could get the vaccine,
>but I'm too old.  My 14 year old is taking the vaccine, my
>youngest doesnt want a shot.  That's okay..she has time.

Do you know WHY you can't have it?  Honestly, does it REALLY make sense that they'll give it to our children, but not to adults, who are able to consent?  Sorry, I'm not willing to allow a child I care about to be a guinea pig.

>Our doctor said that some people think its a way of saying go
>have sex...which its not.  She said the concept is the same as
>giving your toddler the hepatitis B vaccine.  

Well, I DON'T see it as a way of telling your teen to "go have sex."  In fact, she's asked about birth control because of her side effects of menstruation, and we have no problem with that.  

You're right, the concept is similar to that of the Hep B vaccine.  Our kids don't get that one, either.  :o)

>If you want to pursue this in court, you need actual reasons
>other than what has been stated so far.  For example, is there
>any harm?

Well, I hadn't stated any reasons until this morning, so I don't know what you mean.  Yes, there IS a great potential for harm.  I posted my concerns in the post above this, and I'll copy that in here:

We don't want her to have the vaccine because, simply put, we don't trust that it is safe or necessary.  It is very new.  The company that makes the vaccine has been very dishonest in its presentation of what the vaccine is and what it is for:  It is being hailed as a "cancer vaccine," when in fact, it is NOT.  It is a vaccine that MAY help prevent a FEW strains of a STD that MIGHT cause cancer SOMETIMES.  Of course, we don't know that it doesn't CAUSE uterine cancer, or ovarian cancer, or any other number of things.  

The vaccine also has had a HUGE number of serious adverse reactions for the short time it's been available.  THREE girls have DIED from getting it, and numerous others have ended up in the hospital.  Most common, from reading through the reported reactions, are cardiac issues and fainting.  Some girls have had seizures, so there are neurological issues involved.  

It's just not worth the risk.  Much, MUCH more important are regular pap tests, which will pick up abnormal cervical cells no matter if they are caused by HPV or not.

>It may make you feel better to know the shot is given in three
>injections over a six month period....so, if its not followed
>through she will not be protected anyway.

Doesn't make me feel better AT ALL.  I am familiar with how it's administered, I work in a pediatrician's office.  :o)  Actually, even without the 2nd and 3rd shots, there is some measure of protection (well, there is with vaccines in general, as I've already stated, I am still not convinced this one actually does protect).  But even with ONE dose, there is a potential for an adverse reaction.  In fact, it's the first dose that generally causes the deaths and serious reactions that have been reported.

[Sanche99]

>To answer your question, you'd have to file in court to block
>her getting the vaccine. I doubt if it's anything you could do
>yourself as it would be fairly complicated with a lot of
>issues and probably a number of expert witnesses.

So a parent who has legal custody can't tell a doctor's office anything and expect it to be respected, if the other parent takes the child in behind their back?  

>Having said that, I would encourage you to reconsider your
>position. While there's a lot of innuendo going around, the
>FACTS are:

Well, working in a pediatrician's office, I doubt you have any "facts" that I haven't yet heard, but...

>1. The vaccine is quite effective (but not perfect) in
>preventing one type of cancer - a particularly tragic cancer
>that occurs when a woman is often raising a family.

That is not at all true.  It may be effective in preventing a FEW STRAINS of a STD that SOMETIMES MIGHT lead to cervical cancer.  Much more important are regular pap tests.  Experts estimate that about 90% of women who die from cervical cancer would have survived if they had had a regular pap test.  And remember, women can get cervical cancer without having HPV, so even those girls who get the shot STILL need to be tested for cervical cancer every year.  Unfortunately, they are being told that this shot will prevent cervical cancer, period, and are even less likely to have regular pap tests for it.

>2. The vaccine does NOT increase the frequency of sexual
>activity (in spite of innuendo otherwise from various
>religious groups).

Never thought it would.

>3. The vaccine does not have serious side effects.

*LOL*  Really?  Are you serious???  So DEATH isn't serious enough for you?

>4. Even if your daughter does not have premarital sex, she
>could still get HPV (and after that, cancer) from her husband
>since a large number of men have the virus and do not know.
>This vaccine will reduce the risk greatly.

If she changes her mind and wants the vaccine later on, fine.  That's up to her.  Right now, though, she sees no reason for it.  

[ocean]

Since you both have legal custody, you BOTH can bring her to the dr. BM has the right to give the shot to her daughter. Your DH would have to fight it in court and have better reasons...because BM will come in with all the "good" documentation about the shot.
I just talked to my girls dr about this and their office gives it around 13 years old...It is a personal decision...The public schools around here require most of the shots you say you do not want to give your children. The only way around it is for documented religious reasons.

[Kitty C.]

'It may be effective in preventing a FEW STRAINS of a STD that SOMETIMES MIGHT lead to cervical cancer. Much more important are regular pap tests. Experts estimate that about 90% of women who die from cervical cancer would have survived if they had had a regular pap test.'

I completely agree that getting this vaccine doesn't mean you no longer have to get a pap smear.  That would be pure stupidity, because there's too many things out there that can cause cancer.  But I will tell you one thing.  If you've never had an abnormal pap, you have no idea what kind of hell it can put you through, even if it isn't cancerous.  And I've had it happen THREE times.  All 3 times it was proven to come from HPV.  I've even had a LEEP procedure.  Every time this happened, I was informed that the abnormal cells were 'pre-cancerous'.....if left untreated and I never got another pap, I'd be in big trouble.  I certainly didn't want to take the chance.  And after every procedure, the frequency of repeat paps makes you want to lock your knees together (sorry guys, but that's the unfortunate truth).  After the LEEP procedure, I bet I had 6 to 8 repeat paps within the next 2 years, just to make sure they got all the abnormal cells.

But as uncomfortable as that was (and there have been no reoccurances since I married DH), I will never fail to get another pap.  Still, if I was in the same 'environment' as I was in the past and they offered the vaccine to me, I'd jump at the chance.  If there's a chance that it could keep this from happening again, you bet I'd take it.

As it is, I am scheduled for a biopsy this Friday....I've had my first abnormal mammogram.  And I know that will mean many more in the next few years.  But my philosophy has always been to be pro-active with my health........I will take whatever precautions/preventions are available and best suit me and do the preventative care required as well.  

[Sanche99]

>But as uncomfortable as that was (and there have been no
>reoccurances since I married DH), I will never fail to get
>another pap.  Still, if I was in the same 'environment' as I
>was in the past and they offered the vaccine to me, I'd jump
>at the chance.  If there's a chance that it could keep this
>from happening again, you bet I'd take it.

I can understand that, and that is your decision.  My concern is that we don't know what the long term effects of this vaccine.  It is possible that it renders the girls unable to have children, causes other types of cancer, anything.  We don't know.  If, for instance, we found out it can cause uterine cancer, would you STILL think you'd have wanted it?  We don't know if this is safe, and I think that the decision to subject someone to it should be up to the parents.  To me, it's forcing someone to be a guinea pig.  

The only reason this is in question now is that my husband has joint legal custody of his daughter.  I just want to know if that actually MEANS anything or not.  

Good luck to you with your health.  I know how scary it can be, my 6-year-old daughter finished chemotherapy in January for leukemia.