Visitation Issues

[jsi21063]

CP and NCP both live in GA.

In the paperwork, visitation is defined as "liberal" and if parties cannot agree, a minimum of EOW (6PM Friday to 6PM Sunday) and alternating holidays visitation is set.

In past, I (NCP) have often gotten children at times other than the set visitation of EOW and alternating holidays.

However, recently CP requested me to watch one of the children due to the fact that the child was ill and CP had to go to work.  I had a state holiday from my job that day.  I agreed with the verbal agreement that CP would pick up the child at 4 PM due to a meeting I had.

At 3 PM, CP calls and states that she cannot get child, she has to work late and I will be responsible for child until she (CP) "chooses" to come and get child.

I remind CP that I have a meeting and this is impossible.  I suggest alternatives such as my wife watching child, her mother watching child, etc.  She says no to all, that child is my responsibility until she (CP) "chooses" to get her.  She also states that she (CP) will decide the time and place of that meeting.

I am forced to tell her that if she refuses my options, I will simply have to leave child with my wife.  She (CP) states that if that occurs, I will have to bring child to school in the morning, which is impossible due to school being 60 miles from my house.

I reply no, this will not work, and I will be dropping child off at her work at the previously agreed upon time of 4 PM.  She replies that she is calling her lawyer.  Well, when she called back she had apparently not gotten the answer she was looking for and told me to bring child to her work at 4 PM.

Now I'm worried about taking children at any other times than the set EOW and alternating holidays.  

1. Can CP dictate and change drop-off and pick-up times at a moment's notice, and without my agreement, when I have the children during non-scheduled visitation?

2.  If CP can dictate above, can I get into legal trouble for being unable to meet her at such a specified time?

3. Can CP dictate with whom and where my children can stay during my scheduled or non-scheduled visitation?  My paperwork does not address any issue pertaining to with whom and where children can stay during either my or CP's time.

Thank You.

[socrateaser]

>1. Can CP dictate and change drop-off and pick-up times at a
>moment's notice, and without my agreement, when I have the
>children during non-scheduled visitation?

The word "liberal" visitation is sufficiently vague to make a contempt sanction practically unavailable. Thus, if the other parent seeks to fall back to the minimum specific court ordered visitation, your only recourse will be to obtain a clarification order from the court making a more precise allocation of time.

I suggest that if you suddenly find the other parent completely uncooperative, that you try to collect and log as much evidence of your past exercise of visitation as possible, and then try to get the court to order the current de facto status quo maintained, in the child's best interests.

>2.  If CP can dictate above, can I get into legal trouble for
>being unable to meet her at such a specified time?

She cannot dictate -- she can merely fall back to depriving you of all "liberal" visitation using whatever excuse(s) may be convenient at the time.

>3. Can CP dictate with whom and where my children can stay
>during my scheduled or non-scheduled visitation?  My paperwork
>does not address any issue pertaining to with whom and where
>children can stay during either my or CP's time.

Visitation, unlike custody, is not generally delegable, so while the CP cannot dictate, you cannot legally place the child with someone else.

However, as a practical matter, if you did leave the child with your current spouse, what's the CP gonna do about it? File for contempt? I doubt that a judge would punish you for doing something reasonable in view of exingent circumstances which do not regularly occur (i.e., the meeting).

[jsi21063]

Thank you so much for your reply.  It was very helpful.

I do have one last question:

1. If I have the children during "liberal" and not set visitation, what would I do in the instance that CP absolutely refuses to meet me to exchange children?  For instance, if the one time CP chooses to meet is at a time when it is completely impossible for me to be there?

2.  I'm starting to worry that she could try and press kidnapping charges if I am unable to meet at a time she sets at the last minute.

For instance, durinng the previously described incident, she waited until late afternoon to change the pick-up time from 4 PM to 10:30 PM.  This was impossible for me.

If such an incident arises in the future, can I have a person appointed by me (i.e. spouse) to meet CP with child for pick-up?

3.  Can she press kidnapping charges against me if, during "liberal" visitation, she changes the pick-up time at the last minuite and I am completely unable to meet her?

[socrateaser]

>Thank you so much for your reply.  It was very helpful.
>
>I do have one last question:
>
>1. If I have the children during "liberal" and not set
>visitation, what would I do in the instance that CP absolutely
>refuses to meet me to exchange children?  For instance, if the
>one time CP chooses to meet is at a time when it is completely
>impossible for me to be there?

I don't understand the question. Please rephrase it.

>
>2.  I'm starting to worry that she could try and press
>kidnapping charges if I am unable to meet at a time she sets
>at the last minute.

>For instance, durinng the previously described incident, she
>waited until late afternoon to change the pick-up time from 4
>PM to 10:30 PM.  This was impossible for me.

>
>If such an incident arises in the future, can I have a person
>appointed by me (i.e. spouse) to meet CP with child for
>pick-up?

No. You don't have custody. You have visitation, which is a personal license to see the kids. It's not authority to delegate your license to someone else -- that's what custody is.

>3.  Can she press kidnapping charges against me if, during
>"liberal" visitation, she changes the pick-up time at the last
>minuite and I am completely unable to meet her?

No. How could the local prosecutor prove that you violated the agreement when the CP changed the terms of the agreement after it was already agreed to by you.

You are very confused. You need to file a motion to clarify visitation and get rid of the "liberal" clause on grounds that the other parent is using it to frustrate your access to the children and that this injures their best interests.

Until you do this, you will continue to have problems, because the CP is using the current orders to punish you. Just treat it like business, and get the orders modifed so as to take the power away from her.

The result may be less time with your kids, but it will be worth the peace of mind.

[jsi21063]

I apologize for being unclear and thank you again for your help.

Regarding question #1:

I am considering "liberal" visitation as any visitation outside the parameters of the "set" visitation which takes place EOW and alternating holidays.  For instance, any additional weekends or days CP gives me.

During the "liberal" visitation, there is no set pick-up or drop-off time.  This is just extra time CP chooses to give me.

For instance, if CP calls me and says "You can keep the children today if you want, I'll drop them off at 8 AM and and will pick them up at 5 PM".

I agree and spend the day with the children.  

At 4 PM she calls and states that she cannot meet me at 5 PM as previously planned and that I will need to keep the children until she is able to get them at a later time.

The problem is that her changing the time interferes with an event that I cannot disregard or not attend (i.e. work, meeting, appointment).  An additional problem is that live some distance away from CP.

1.  If the above case occurs, what do I do if CP absolutely refuses to get the children except during a single 30 minute span, the time and place of which she chooses,  during which time I am unavailable to meet her?

My confusion, which you have already addressed, is who sets the time and place of pick-up's and drop-off's during this "liberal" visitation.  CP is operating under the belief that she chooses both and that if I don't comply, I am going against our paperwork, hence contempt.

Thank you so much.  You have been so helpful.

[socrateaser]

>1.  If the above case occurs, what do I do if CP absolutely
>refuses to get the children except during a single 30 minute
>span, the time and place of which she chooses,  during which
>time I am unavailable to meet her?

You are misunderstanding the scope of your visitation. Once the other parent and you come to an agreement as to the amount of time that you are to have with the children, that agreement is cast in stone, absent some unforeseen emergency.

So, if you agree that you will take the kids from 8-5 and at 3 the other parent tells you to keep the kids until 6 and or changes some other terms of the deal, then your response is simply that you've already agreed on the pickup time, and that she can't unilaterally change the rules after the agreement is already made. So, she can either stick to the original agreement, or you and her can come to some new agreement now.

As a practical matter, these verbal agreements are generally unprovable by either party, and they lead to nothing but conflict, which is why I suggest getting rid of the language entirely from your orders.

But, as you have the language, then you can either record the agreement by writing it down and having her sign it or hand it to her when you pick up the kids and if she disagrees with anything there, then she should make changes and sign it and give it back to you before you leave with the kids, or you won't take the kids.

Or, you can use a tape recorder and quickly go over the terms of the visitation when you pick up the kids and have her signify her asset to the terms, so as to preserve a record of your agreement.

But, if you do nothing, then as previously mentioned, neither of you will be able to prove anything to a judge, other than that you disagree, and the court will look to what he/she believes is reasonable under the circumstances -- none of which will likely lead to a contempt sanction, because that requires proof beyond all reasonable doubt -- a very heavy burden of proof.

>My confusion, which you have already addressed, is who sets
>the time and place of pick-up's and drop-off's during this
>"liberal" visitation.  CP is operating under the belief that
>she chooses both and that if I don't comply, I am going
>against our paperwork, hence contempt.

She's wrong. Contempt is hard to prove, which is why I'm suggesting that you get some sort of recording when you pick up the kids as to exactly what's being agreed to, so as to avoid any argument later on.

And, as I said, the ultimate solution is to modify your orders and get rid of the liberal visitation language, because your problem will never go away, otherwise.