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Main Forums => Visitation Issues => Topic started by: jadig52 on Oct 03, 2009, 11:38:53 AM

Title: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: jadig52 on Oct 03, 2009, 11:38:53 AM
Please keep in mind, as you read, I have been seperated since September of '03 and legally divorced as of March '06. I currently live 3 blocks from my Ex, am an every other weekend Dad, and current on my child support.

I have given my Ex plenty of space because of her mental condition(she is clinically depressed and was when we married). It all started when my daughter told me she was in a play(she's very shy) and I wanted to go see her. I was very excited. I told my daughter to make sure she tells me the dates. Some time goes by and I ask her about it. She says the play already happened. My daughter told me that her Mom said that if I went, then she(my Ex) couldn't because she can't deal with me. I then proceeded to tell my Ex that I will do my own homework now and that she doesn't have the convenience anymore of going to extra curricular activities without me being there.

Any suggestions? I've been researching Parental Alienation Syndrome(PAS), but that doesn't seem to hold up in court. I just want to see my kids as much as possible and she won't let me.

This is email correspondance. She won't talk to me on the phone.
From ExWife-09/07/2009 ~ Games start this weekend. I do not have (Son)'s schedule yet but his game will be on Saturday. (Daughter)'s game is Sunday 12:30pm at 152nd fields. I will email you a full schedual when I get (Son)'s which should be tomorrow night.

(That day, I did my own homework and sent her FULL schedules of both the kids' soccer games. It used to be okay that she only sent the schedule of games for my weekends. I told her that would not be okay anymore.)


From ExWife-09/08/2009
~ Why are you sending me this? (Son) told you I would have them both by tonight. As a reminder my weekends are mine and I will not bring them if you start showing up.


From Me-09/09/2009
~ Bring them where? To their soccer games?


Ex-09/008/2009
~ yes


Me-09/09/2009
~ Why? That's ridiculous. We don't have to talk to each other. We don't even have to look at each other. If you still won't take them, will you then allow me to take them?


Ex-09/08/2009
~ Look, I'm not trying to be a bitch or argue, I just cannot relax and enjoy my time with the kids with you around. As I've said I hope this isn't always the case, you are the one that has made this difficult for me.The
parenting plan
is clear that we decide what they do and who they do it with while they are in our care. This has worked for several years even though I have paid for their registration, uniforms and taken them to all of their practices. Please don't try to make me the bad guy and please for once try to respect my feelings.


Me-09/08/2009
~ I am not trying to be difficult and/or a jerk. Here is what I am doing. This is an excerpt from an email I sent to you back in April:
I don't want to fight. All I am doing is vowing to honestly try to not miss any more extra curricular and/or educational activities our children are involved with. You can either help me with that, or I will do my own homework.

I'm sorry, but, I am sticking to it and just doing my homework. I believe that (Daughter) is starting to understand what it is that's going on. I have told her that it is discouraging that she can't play with friends that she has made while staying with me that live only minutes away(from you). I also told her that I look forward to meeting (Daughter's Friend's)'s parents here in the near future so that they can play whenever they want. It's (Daughter)'s friends first, not ours.
It's also my responsibility to be supportive of the kids' choices(sports, education, dancing, singing, musical instrument, MMA, ballet, horseback riding, etcetera...)whenever I can and I haven't been doing that.


Ex-09/10/2009 ~

We have stuck with the parenting plan for the last 6yrs and it works. I will go to their games on my weekends and you on yours, we will not intrude on the others time. In the future if you would like to support the kids
extra curricular activities
you are more than welcome to pay for them to be on a team (around $80 each), their uniforms (around $35 each) and take them to some practices.
 

 

Me-09/11/2009
~ I'm done excluding myself. As far as I know, I have the right to their school performances, athletic performances, etc. Section 6-2. If there is anything that legally excludes me from such public appearances, let me know what that is. I'm not doing this to make you miserable. I'm doing this to take the misery out of my life. I'm also not taking into consideration how this makes you feel. It's been six years, and if my presence still has an affect on you , not my problem any more. Like I said, I will do my own homework now (6.2 and 6.5).
This is my parental duty. You can either choose to let it ruin the next eight years of your life, hating me even more, OR you can just accept it as fact.

6.2
~ Both parents shall keep themselves advised of significant school, athletic, cultural and social events in which the children participate. Each parent shall provide the other, promptly upon request with significant information...
6.5
~ the parents shall attempt to cooperate and coordinate such acts of consent or permission.


EX-09/11/2009
~6.2 ~ I know this because it is something that I had put in, doesn't apply. I have always provided you with the schedules for your weekends. Yes you can keep yourself advised, obviously after 6yrs your taking advantage of this but it says nothing about your right to show up.
6.5
~ Again, doesn't apply. This says nothing of your rights to intrude on my weekend. It states only that I should "attempt to cooperate".
Now if you look a couple pages before under "DECISION MAKING"
4.1 states "Each parent shall make decisions regarding the day-to-day care and control of each child while the children are residing with that parent".
This does apply and is very clear. I have the law on my side here.
Let it go, feel lucky that you have been able to enjoy all these years of watching your kids without the worry of paying for everything and 5 nights of practices or even better 2 nights with the kids at different ends of town practicing at about the same time. You talk about the kids feelings? They have been fine with the way it has been going, you starting all of this (going against the parenting plan) is putting them in a bad position.

There is nothing more to be said, again the parenting plan is very clear, the law is on my side. If you choose to respond your email will go straight to the trash bin, I'm done. If you should decide to continue the emails I will do as I have in the past and block you.


Ex-02/18/2009
~ I'm hoping you will allow me to enjoy the kids games during my time alone. After all I am not stopping you from any other extra curricular activities including school sports. I realize you do not understand how I feel and possibly think I'm doing this out of spite. This is not true, I am simply unable to mentally and physically be that near you at this stage, believe it or not. I have talked with the kids and they understand my feelings and that it is me not you. It would be a shame for them to have to miss half of their games. It would be nice to know what your plans are.

~End of emails~ 
Me-
On September 19, 2009, I went to attend the soccer game of my 15 year old son. As I was approaching the field, I visually made contact with his mother, and my daughter, sitting at her feet. When (Ex) saw me, she motioned to (Son)(who was on the field playing goalie), bent over as to speak to (Daughter), who then stood up and both started walking away. I had brought with me (Daughter)'s soccer ball as she had left it at my house the weekend before. I called (Daughter) over to me and (Ex) kept walking away. I asked (Daughter) where she was going as I handed her soccer ball to her. She said "thanks" and then responded to my question with, "to the car."
"Are you leaving?" I asked. "And what about (Son)?"
"He has to come to the car at halftime." (Daughter) explained.
Halftime came and (Son) stayed at the field. As the second half started, (Son) was still at the field. I then noticed minutes later, that (Son) and (Daughter) were walking away from the field and toward the parking lot. I ran up to (Son)and asked, "Does the coach know you are leaving?"
"I don't think so." was (Son)'s reply.
I told (Son)i that he needed to tell the coach he was leaving and why he was leaving. I told (Son) he didn't have to leave. I asked him if he wanted to play in his came, to which his reply was, "I don't know." I then asked (Son) if it was my fault that he had to leave his game. (Son) told me yes. I then told (Son), "I came to the game to support you."
(Son) then told his coach, "I have to leave because my Dad came to the game." To which his coach replied, "That's strange."
 
On September 20 , 2009, I went to (Daughter)'s scheduled soccer game. She is 10 years old. When I arrived, I did not see (Daughter) on the field or on the sidelines. I approached her coach and asked if (Daughter) was here. He said no. I asked coach if she had called in regards to her absence. He looked at his phone and said, "No."

The next weekend, I spoke with the kids and sent an email to their mother a couple of days later:

So, I have discussed three(3) options with the kids regarding their soccer games on my non-weekends. They are as follows:
1.) You can bring them to their games and I will stay at the opposite end of the field and not come in contact with you(which was always the plan).
2.) You can bring them to their games, go home(or wait in your car), and pick them up after their games.
or,
3.) I will pick them up, take them to their games, and bring them back to your house after their games.

Both (Son) and (Daughter), after talking with them, have a desire to play in every game. Of the three options, I'm sure that you can agree to one of them. Maybe you can agree to a particular one of them depending on the location of their games. I will do any of the three, at any given time, at any given location, on any given Saturday and Sunday. Please, at least, agree to one of them so that they can play soccer.

Her response:
Is this a joke??
Are you giving me options for what I can do with the kids on my weekends?
Of course you can agree with any of the options, they are all yours.
It seems like you are trying to tell me how I should feel, it's not going to happen. I told you I couldn't do it and what would happen. You didn't care about anybody's feelings but your own, YOU have ruined this for them. If you need to talk to the kids about it you should ask them as I have if the schedule was okay before you started this.
Your right, the kids do want to play in all of their games, they also want me to be able to watch them play...and enjoy myself.
I cannot and will not do this anymore. The only side you seem to see is your own. As soon as I send this I will be blocking your emails once again. If there is an emergency with the kids text me, otherwise we have nothing to talk about.

To which I replied and have not heard back:
Are you giving me options for what I can do with the kids on my weekends? I am asking for you to agree to one of the options, that's all. Obviously you do not want to do that.


You didn't care about anybody's feelings but your own, YOU have ruined this for them.
I told you I couldn't do it. Yes, YOU can't do it, but the kids can. Regardless of my feelings or your feelings, it's how the kids feel. Your right, the kids do want to play in all of their games. Then why don't you let them play? It's all for the kids, right?

Also, I did not say they had practices across town this year, I was making reference to past years.
Okay, my fault. I thought that you were trying to make me feel bad about the stress of traveling. I read into it the wrong way. I'm sorry.


For the past six years, I have let my feelings get in the way of how I should be as a divorced father. I have let the feelings that you have for me influence the way I conduct myself. Your feelings of hate you have for me has influenced the way you conduct yourself when I am in your presence. You have always said that whatever you do, it's all for the kids. Can you really say this time, that what you are doing, is for the kids? No, I believe that it is for yourself. And you need someone to blame, other than yourself.
The kids want to play. Please let them play. I just want the kids to remember that Dad came to every game that he could. And I told you before, I am not going to let your feelings get in the way
.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: MixedBag on Oct 03, 2009, 12:14:45 PM
sometimes, you feel like you're talking to a brick wall huh???
 
you got the right idea and in the LONG RUN, this will help you and the kids.
 
Be careful about getting into a letter war or an e-mail war with her.  K?
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: ocean on Oct 03, 2009, 12:27:22 PM
Your EX is totally wrong... File in family court that "both parents be allowed to all school events and outside activities that the children participate in. AND that neither parent can pull them from the field/activity if the other parent shows up."
You have EVERY right to be there. Keep doing it, in fact the next time, I would bring a video camera and video her pulling the kid off the field. How ridicules.

Does your court order state you split activities? If it doesnt, then that has nothing to do with it.

First you can try a certified letter, with her signature stating,
Ex,
I have received kids schedules and will be attending their activities. The support from both their parents is important even if we are no longer together. No where is our papers does it state that we are both not allowed to be at their events. The children have expressed their desire for both of us to be there. As I said before, you do not have control on who goes to their activities and I welcome you to be there on "my" weekends so they children know we are adults and can handle it. It has been 6 years and their activities are for them, not you. If you pull them off the field again, I will be forced to have the courts intervene and I will be asking for lawyer fees.
you

Her response will be to pull them off the team on her weekends.... in which case, see if the coach will allow them to play on your weekends. If it is competitive, file in court. She will look like a fool saying "he cant go, I cant handle it".
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: jadig52 on Oct 03, 2009, 12:59:48 PM
Mixed~I know... hate conversing through emails. The majority of the time she takes it as hostile. She cannot hear the sincerity in my voice.

Ocean~I will do that next, send a certified letter. I have also spoken with both my kids' coaches and they know the situation their mother is putting them in. Both coaches also have my telephone number and email address. I have not missed a game yet that has been on my time. This weekend I will see what happens. I am about tp leave now and head to the soccer field where my boy is (supposed) to be playing. And I will talk with the coach if he is not there to see if his mother did the responsible thing and called to notify him of his absense.

My daughters game is tomorrow and I will do the same thing. I get to see my kids on average, 4 times a month and I want to instill responsibility. But how can I do that with an irresponsible mother? Thank you...
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: jadig52 on Oct 03, 2009, 01:52:49 PM
Nope...wasn't there and coach had not received word via phone call or email that he would not be there. Coach also notified me that my son has not gone to practices either. (http://www.deltabravo.net/forum/Smileys/default/embarrassed.gif)
Since I live three blocks away, I decided to drive by their mother's house. Was that a no-no? Anyway, the car was not there.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: MixedBag on Oct 03, 2009, 03:24:57 PM
You have a Personal Message.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: MomofTwo on Oct 03, 2009, 05:14:44 PM
While I agree Mom is not right for pulling them from a game, her actions speak very loudly that she is extremely uncomfortable with your presence. Does not appear to be her doing this out of spite, but out of true discomfort with your presence.  Is there more to that??
 
Additionally, while I disagree it was wrong for her to pull them or not send them, you were wrong for telling your son he did not have to leave.  Her weekend, her decision what to do with them, which is also why it was wrong for you to send her options for how to handle their games on her weekends. You had no business doing that.
 
 
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: ocean on Oct 03, 2009, 06:59:32 PM
If the child has an activity BOTH parents under the law are allowed to be there (plus it is a public place). If mom is bringing them to the games, then he is allowed to be there regardless of whose weekend. Seems like mom decided she is no longer bringing them to their activities because she cant handle it and that is not right. It has been 6 years, if mom needs therapy or medication to be able to function across a soccer field then she needs to do that and let her childrens father enjoy all their activities. What is going to happen when it is HS graduation? Is she not going to allow him to be there if it is her weekend? Not her choice and she will be told that if this goes to court or goes to any lawyer with half a brain.

Since she is no longer bringing them, then keep bringing them on your weekends if the coaches will allow them to play and offer to take them the practices yourself until your court date. See if you can get the coach to say what happened in writing on that game and the games and practices since that game for you.
Good luck!
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: jadig52 on Oct 03, 2009, 08:07:08 PM
Ocean~ Thank you for that. And I did just exactly that when I went to his game. I apologized to the coach for him not being there and said that I hope he has some playing time next week, because he WILL be there.

Oh My God.. I am so at wits end with my ex. I have researched PAS and from what I can tell, she(my ex) is an 'obsessive alienator'. And I want results immediatly. I know that that is impossible...never mind...AAAAAaaahhhhh...

Thank you all for your input, keep it coming!

John
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: sillystring on Oct 07, 2009, 10:55:41 AM
Your ex is completely putting herself before the kids and that really makes me sad.  What she is doing is not right at all.
 
However, I think you need to look at yourself as well.  YOU are currently doing the same thing by showing up, knowing that means the kids will not get to participate in the game.  Should you be allowed to be there? Of course.  But I think you need to back off, send her a text saying that FOR NOW you will not attend the games on "her" time, but that you WILL be requesting a modification through the courts because you feel that BOTH of you should be able to attend ANY AND ALL of the kids' events.
 
Then you should file a modification with the courts, and maybe request some additional mental health evaluations for her?  She's obviously not getting the help she needs.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: gemini3 on Oct 07, 2009, 05:57:59 PM
Parental Alienation sucks.  There's no other way to put it.  If you're dealing with an alienator you're also dealing with someone who has an inability to seperate her needs and emotions from her childrens, and an intense fear of abandonment.  Therefore (in her head) if she hates you her children must as well or, if they love you, they must not love her and will leave her.  An active alienator will do or say just about anything to ward off the perceived threat of abandonment and secure the perception of the children's loyalty.  There is some data that supports most alienators having some sort of personality disorder - usually BPD or NPD.  This means that logic and reason do not apply when dealing with an alienator.
 
My husbands ex is an alienator, and we believe that she has BPD.  She vacillates between being a passive alienator and an active alienator depending on what crisis she is currently having (or not having) in her life.  It's a struggle to deal with, but you can deal with it.  We found several books helpful:
 
Stop Walking on Eggshells
Understanding the Borderline Mother
Divorce Poison
Divorce Casualties
 
We also found "low/no contact", as recommended by "Mr. M" to be very helpful:  http://www.thepsychoexwife.com/appropriate-means-of-contact-with-high-conflict-personalities/ (http://www.thepsychoexwife.com/appropriate-means-of-contact-with-high-conflict-personalities/)
 
The biggest thing for us is to set firm, clear boundaries and to stick to "low contact".  When we do have to engage, we try to do so in a way that won't trip her wire, so to speak.  We have learned not to be so concerned with who's right and who's wrong, and started focusing on how best to get what the kids need.
 
Good luck
 
 
Title: Me too. PAS sucks. NM
Post by: FatherTime on Oct 07, 2009, 10:06:04 PM
NM = No message
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: Momfortwo on Oct 08, 2009, 05:05:15 AM
First of all, what she is doing is wrong.  But she doesn't have to take the kids to the games on her week-end anymore than you have to take them on your week-end in the abscence of a court order.

BTW, you aren't exactly innocent here, either.  You did something that you KNEW would result in the kids not being able to play in their game.  And you did it to make a point to your ex.  Like your ex, you didn't put the kids first. 

That was wrong of both of you to do.  So now the question is:  Are you going to stop this game you are playing and start putting the kids first? 

Obviously, with a school play, you would have to just go and ignore your ex as that has a limited run and you may end up not seeing the play at all.  That is not the case with sports. 
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: gemini3 on Oct 08, 2009, 07:56:25 AM
Just a thought, but, why should the kids have to pick between which parent should come to their games?  Most kids, absent feeling like one parent will get upset, would choose to have both parents there. 
 
I think that the parent who won't let their kids participate in extra-curricular activities because the other parent will go too is the person playing games.  Not to mention punishing the kids because they don't like what the other parent did - and then telling them to blame the other parent. 
 
That is called using your children as pawns, and it's disgusting and WRONG.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: Kitty C. on Oct 08, 2009, 09:31:23 AM
I totally disagree, momfortwo.  The father has every right and is not legally prohibited from attending any and all games.  For the mother to yank the kids just because Dad shows up is NOT a reflection on Dad...he has absolutely NO control over her actions whatsoever and it was HER choice to stay or leave.  Either of them could just as easily remove themselves far away enough not to have contact with or see each other if they chose to and still watch the entire game.....we're talking a large playing field here and you can't tell me that either of them would not be capable of doing this.  And I would not be surprised if the father was already trying to do this, but if she's this hyper-vigilant, she probably visually seeks him out.
 
And if the ex is being this anal about seeing him in such a large, open venue, she would probably go ballistic if he tried to attend a play or something comparable.  He would literally have to be sneaky about it.......coming in right before the event starts, so as not to run into her prior to the start and leaving early or immediately at the end for the same reason, the only way to ensure he could avoid her completely.  But I'm getting the strong impression that she makes it her duty to be hyper-vigilant and probably continuously scans the people attending to make sure he isn't there......which tells me she isn't there for the kids in the first place.
 
Look at it this way.......if Dad could have been there but without the ex even being aware of it, would that make a difference?  You bet, because if the ex brought the children and still decided to stay, that is HER choice, no one elses.  It's all based on choices and one's inability to control the actions of another.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: MomofTwo on Oct 08, 2009, 11:03:30 AM
I  can't help but feel there is more to this story then what is being presented....
 
He did not attend games for six years.
 
She told him she would provide the schedules and in turn, he got them and sent them to her. 
 
She has had to block emails in the past.
 
She is clearly VERY uncomfortable with his presence.  I disagree with anyone who says she just needs to get over it.   She does, but people who have no reason to be
uncomfortable, aren't. 
 
Does he need to stay away..no?  Does she need to keep her kids in sports ...no.   There are control issues here on BOTH of these people.  Sorry, neither one of them
is acting in the best interest of the children, including him.  If for six years they individually took them and that has worked, then do it for the sake of the children.  A court is not gong to make Mom keep them in sports, anymore then courts order NCP to allow them to participate in sports  on their time.
 
If you know your children aren't going to get to play if you show up, then sorry,think about them.   It isn't about what is fair to either parent, it is what works out best for the children.  Since neither parent is doing that, then do what works out best for the kids.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: pcdad on Oct 08, 2009, 03:25:41 PM
This mother is being DISGUSTING!  Everyone needs to stop running to their lawyers and relying on the courts to be the adults for them.  My god - why would one parent not want their kids to participate in sports and not recognize the need for their kids to know BOTH parents support them.  This is a totally selfish act on the mother's part because she can't grow up.  The courts should not even be bothered with issues such as this - the parents need to be adults.  Put aside their bitterness over what happened in their marriage and recognize the fact that they have kids that love both parents and want both parents to be involved in their lives.  I can't see any reason the mother needs to act like this - she is being selfish.  Some might say that the father should not attend the events when it is not his weekend, but I totally disagree.  Each parent should be able to watch their kids at sporting, school events.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: gemini3 on Oct 08, 2009, 03:43:33 PM
MomofTwo, there is always more to the story.  And I totally disagree with the statement that "people who have no reason to be uncomfortable, aren't".  People make things up all the time to get what they want.  People block other people's e-mails all the time for no reason other than to be disagreeable.
 
He didn't go to the games for six years because the mom made it clear that she didn't want him there, and he (from what he said) was trying not to rock the boat and give her time to adjust.  I think she's had plenty of time to do that, and if she hasn't by now it has nothing to do with him or his actions.
 
Both parents have just as much right to attend the child's games.  Refusing to take them anymore because the dad will be there is manipluation and hostile aggressive parenting.  If this is the way she's going to handle things then eventually it will come down to who's going to be there at graduation, or at the kids wedddings, etc.  That's not the direction things should be going in.  It's very hurtful to the children.
 
No one should use their children in an attempt to control the other person.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: Momfortwo on Oct 08, 2009, 04:05:33 PM

I totally disagree, momfortwo.  The father has every right and is not legally prohibited from attending any and all games. 

 
I agree.  And the mother has every right and is not legally prohibited from keeping the kids home instead of taking them to the game.
 
BOTH parents are in the wrong here.  Because, unless there is a court order that states the mother and father have no choice but to bring the kids to their games, the father choosing this path is depriving the kids of participating in a sport.  Don't get me wrong, the mother is not blameless here.  But if the father wants to do this right, he should take it to court and get it court ordered that the mother has to take the kids to the game. 
 
 
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: gemini3 on Oct 08, 2009, 05:22:56 PM
The difference is that the mom enrolled the kids in the activities, then pulled them out because the dad wanted to go to the games.  In fact, pulled them out in the middle of a game because the dad was there. 
 
The father did not choose to deprive his kids.  He did not pull them out of the game.  The mother did.  No person should be held hostage by another through their own children.  That is what the mother is doing in this situation.  She is telling the father to do as she says or she will deprive the kids of something.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: Momfortwo on Oct 08, 2009, 06:52:39 PM

The difference is that the mom enrolled the kids in the activities, then pulled them out because the dad wanted to go to the games.  In fact, pulled them out in the middle of a game because the dad was there. 

The father did not choose to deprive his kids.  He did not pull them out of the game.  The mother did.  No person should be held hostage by another through their own children.  That is what the mother is doing in this situation.  She is telling the father to do as she says or she will deprive the kids of something.

 
But the father chose to do something that he KNEW would result in the kids not being able to go to the game.  Both parents are depriving the kids by their behavior.
 
Rather than get into a power struggle with his ex, if it is that important to the kids that they be able to go and participate in their game, he should go to court and see if he can get it court ordered that she has to take them to the game on her week-end.  Because right now, she doesn't have to.   
 
Because right now, both of their behavior is depriving the kids of participating in their games at least half the time. 
 
Like it or not, the father is behaving poorly as well.  Not as bad as the mom.  But that doesn't change the fact that he is to blame, too. 
 
 
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: mdegol on Oct 08, 2009, 07:40:14 PM
Come on...this one is obvious...Mom is wrong. And Dad DOES need to stand up to her. Actually, he would be doing his children a great disservice not to. Because if he doesn't kids are going to have to make choices their whole life...picking mom or dad. They should not get the message that it is OK. Or the message that Dad doesn't care, because it will turn into that over time. Or the message that it is too difficult to deal with mom and dad understands.... Weddings..graduations...funerals... I mean if she can't handle a SOCCER game with him at one end of the field, she needs a serious wake up call (as well as stronger meds). And if she pulls them off the field, there should be consequences. BUT....dad has a real nightmare on his hands. I don't know what he can really do except show up, or try to take them on his weekends. She has to hear that this is wrong from someone...maybe he can involve coaches? Actually, nix that, others do NOT want to get involved in these situations. To me, it is almost a reason for a custody change. She is completely putting her own needs in front of her children's. One could make it sound small, but it shows a real pathology. Those poor kids must have been humilated by this! And it is NOT dad's fault for showing up. If she does this to them over this, she would do it over other things, in other situations as well.

And to be capable of making a scheme and pulling her kids out a game?? She is no shrinking violet that can't handle seeing her ex. She doesn't have any shame! I was really outraged by this story. You are their dad ALL the time, not just on weekends. You are doing the right thing!!!
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: mdegol on Oct 08, 2009, 08:00:08 PM
And, this is not about sports involvement, or requirements for parents to take kids to sports. This is about humiliating your children in front of a staring crowd, just to deliberately try to exclude their father from something any normal father would want to attend.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: mdegol on Oct 08, 2009, 08:13:24 PM
Actually, here is what you do, start showing up to practices too. And pay for it. Take her up on her offer. You HAVE the offer in the email. Then give her the choice. You show up for EVERYTHING (I mean doctor's appointments even during her time....anything you can think of...) or for the things you want to and she doesn't give you a hard time about it.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: Kitty C. on Oct 08, 2009, 10:14:23 PM
'And, this is not about sports involvement, or requirements for parents to take kids to sports. This is about humiliating your children in front of a staring crowd, just to deliberately try to exclude their father from something any normal father would want to attend.'  I agree 100%........there is a much deeper pathology going on here and it will only get worse if something isn't done about this right now.  It's been SIX YEARS, for God's sake! 
 
Heck, neither DH nor I wanted to be near the BM when we went to events for SS....but we certainly didn't have to sit right next to her, either.  She even threatened to keep SS from a Cub Scout event years ago because DH said he wanted to attend.  The step-parents (her DH and me) ended up being the only ones who attended for SS...just because she was being a pain in the a$$ and DH didn't want to go as she had already pitched a fit in front of SS about it.  But that was the LAST time that ever happened.  DH flat out told her that he or I would attend SS's events if we chose to and if she didn't like it, she had the choice to stay as far away from us as she chose to.  Amazing how much that reduced the stress on SS...he finally was able to enjoy himself without worrying about whether his mother would make a scene or prevent him from going.
 
And because DH was adamant in advocating for SS on this issue, last year we ALL stood together on the football field and were all introduced as SS's parents at Parents Night before a game.
 
I hate to think what kind of PAS this BM is doing to the kids at home, if she's acting like this in public.  If it's this bad even after 6 years, how in the he!! will she handle Dad walking his daughter down the aisle at her wedding??  This lady needs her head examined and the kids probably get some benefit from seeing a counselor or therapist, too.  This HAS to be effecting them negatively, but there's no way of knowing to what extent without professional assistance.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: Momfortwo on Oct 09, 2009, 05:09:51 AM

Come on...this one is obvious...Mom is wrong. And Dad DOES need to stand up to her. Actually, he would be doing his children a great disservice not to.

 
As stated before, the mother is wrong for doing what she is doing.  That doesn't change the fact that the father is wrong for doing what he is doing. 
 
Yes, he does need to fight for his kids.  In a way that doesn't deprive them of participating in their games.
 
He's going about it in a way that is depriving the kids of that.
 
The place to fight is in COURT.  Because that is the only place that can order that the kids participate in sports, regardless of whose week-end it is. 
 
Right now, both parents are just turning it into a power struggle with the other.  One that the kids are losing. 
 
He's doing his children a greate disservice by going about this "fight" the way he is.  He needs to take it to court.  Because chances are, given that they have participated in this sport for quite some time, a judge will order that the kids are to be there.  Even if it is the father who has to pick up the children to get them there.  Right now, he can't just go and pick up the kids on her week-end to get them to their game. 
 
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: MomofTwo on Oct 09, 2009, 05:31:58 AM
Jeez....
 
Parent to Child - "Listen honey, I really want to come to every one of your games.  I know I have missed so much and it means the world to me to be there, but me being there seems to be messing this up for you.  Please know how much I want to be there, but I think for now we should do what we have been doing - me going when you are with me and your mom going when she is with you. "
 
Child - THANK YOU DAD.
 
 
This is not about HIM and his rights, this is about what is best for the children.   Mom is wrong, he is wrong.   Nothing else really matters. 
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: gemini3 on Oct 09, 2009, 08:14:26 AM

As stated before, the mother is wrong for doing what she is doing.  That doesn't change the fact that the father is wrong for doing what he is doing. 

Yes, he does need to fight for his kids.  In a way that doesn't deprive them of participating in their games.

He's going about it in a way that is depriving the kids of that.

The place to fight is in COURT.  Because that is the only place that can order that the kids participate in sports, regardless of whose week-end it is. 

Right now, both parents are just turning it into a power struggle with the other.  One that the kids are losing. 

He's doing his children a greate disservice by going about this "fight" the way he is.  He needs to take it to court.  Because chances are, given that they have participated in this sport for quite some time, a judge will order that the kids are to be there.  Even if it is the father who has to pick up the children to get them there.  Right now, he can't just go and pick up the kids on her week-end to get them to their game. 

 
Exactly - the place to fight is in court.  The court will never order that the kids participate in sports - just as they wouldn't order you to dress your child a certain way or take them to church.  But, if there is a reason, they may order that the father stay away from games when it's mom's parenting time.
 
As it stands, dad has just as much right as mom to be in the games, and mom pulling them out is involving the children in the "power struggle".  If she feels that there is a good reason for him not to be at the games, then she is the one that should go and ask the court to prohibit him from coming during her parenting time.  Otherwise, he is doing nothing wrong by being there.
 
She's the one with the problem - she's the one who should address it through the proper channels.  The children are not the proper channel.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: Kitty C. on Oct 09, 2009, 09:48:38 AM
I agree..........there is obviously nothing in the current CO that prohibits him from going to any events the children participate in, so if the BM has a problem with that, it is up to HER to find a remedy.  And it is obvious that, with her mentality of the whole situation, the court is the ony avenue she would have.
 
BUT........I very strongly recommend that if this issue does end up in court, Dad should demand that the children be evaluated to see how they are dealing with the incendiary effects via the mother.
 
I still adamantly disagree that the father is at fault here as well.  As I stated before, if he could attend any event without her knowledge of him being there and she doesn't remove the children, then the problem is totally on her shoulders, given her past behavior.
 
Personally, until this issue does get worked out in court (if the BM ever files for it), I would recommend to the dad that he attempt to attend surreptitiously, stay as far in the background or even in the crowd on the other side of the field if need be.  But take pictures or video to show the kids later that he was there.  Obviously the kids are aware that the BM is forcing them choose her over Dad......and the longer this goes on, the more it will effect them long term.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: mdegol on Oct 09, 2009, 11:00:49 AM
For the father to have been wrong (ie trying to cause a situation by showing up) he would have had to have known that Mom was going to pull children out the game.  Unless I missed it he seemed surprised.  Maybe he thought she would be angry, or something, but I doubt that he thought she would do that.  So even if you believe the theory that he was doing something wrong by showing up, I don't think it holds water in the first incident.  I mean, if we lived our lives by whether something would upset the other parent, it would be a tough life in many cases.
 
And if you say, she may have a good reason for being uncomfortable (abusing, stalking ect) she states in her email "kids know that it is me, not you", so that indicates that it is a problem coming from her own end.
 
There is a second thing about the story that troubles me.  Kids said "have to leave because dad showed up" and daughter goes directly to car.  This is a show of solidarity with the mother.  I would think, normal reaction of kids would be to not want to leave the game.  Unless this dad is a problem, which at least her emails don't suggest, she must be working on them.  So the reaction of the kids is very troubling as well.
 
Also, he would have a hard time in court explaining that he is not "allowed" to be at their games.  Judge would prob say, just show up.  Like was said, mom would have to go to court to show a good reason that he shouldn't be there.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: Momfortwo on Oct 10, 2009, 07:39:16 AM
Exactly - the place to fight is in court.  The court will never order that the kids participate in sports - just as they wouldn't order you to dress your child a certain way or take them to church.  But, if there is a reason, they may order that the father stay away from games when it's mom's parenting time.

As it stands, dad has just as much right as mom to be in the games, and mom pulling them out is involving the children in the "power struggle".  If she feels that there is a good reason for him not to be at the games, then she is the one that should go and ask the court to prohibit him from coming during her parenting time.  Otherwise, he is doing nothing wrong by being there.

She's the one with the problem - she's the one who should address it through the proper channels.  The children are not the proper channel.


Actually, courts HAVE ordered that the child be able to attend sports on the other parents time.  It's all going to depend on the history of the child's involvement and the judge.

The father IS doing something wrong.  Like it or not, he KNOWS (he clearly stated in his very first post that the mother stated that the children would not go to the game if he is there) that his children won't be able to participate in the sports if he shows up.  And knowing that, he went anyway.   BOTH parents are involving the kids in their power struggle.  BTW, the flip side to the father is doing nothing wrong by being there when he knows the mother won't bring the kids is that the mother is doing nothing wrong by not bringing the kids when she knows the father will be there. 

The mother doesn't have to go to court.  She chose how she was going to deal with the situation.  By not taking the kids on her week-end.  Which she can do in the abscence of a court order.

If the father wants the kids to go to the games each week-end, the father needs to go to court and see if a judge will agree with him.   And given that the mother is the one who signed them up, I think his chances are good.   

If I were in his shoes, I wouldn't go to the games on the mother's week-end.  I don't see how depriving a child of participating so that I can exercise my right to be there is in the child's best interest anymore than the mother refusing to let the child participate on her week-end because the father will be there is in the child's best interest.   

Unfortunately, the kids are the ones involved in the power struggle between the parents.  And neither parent is willing to do what is in the children's best interest.   
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: Momfortwo on Oct 10, 2009, 07:41:24 AM


Also, he would have a hard time in court explaining that he is not "allowed" to be at their games.  Judge would prob say, just show up.  Like was said, mom would have to go to court to show a good reason that he shouldn't be there.

 
Or just not take the kids  to the game. 
 
BTW, you may want to read his first post.  He knew that the mother would not take the kids to the game if he showed up.  Says it in the first post.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: snowrose on Oct 10, 2009, 09:16:58 AM

[As stated before, the mother is wrong for doing what she is doing.  That doesn't change the fact that the father is wrong for doing what he is doing.   

Yes, he does need to fight for his kids.  In a way that doesn't deprive them of participating in their games.

He's going about it in a way that is depriving the kids of that.

The place to fight is in COURT.  Because that is the only place that can order that the kids participate in sports, regardless of whose week-end it is.   

Right now, both parents are just turning it into a power struggle with the other.  One that the kids are losing.   


I agree with Momfortwo.  Both parents are at fault.  Yes, the mother has greater fault as it's wholly inappropriate to pull a child from the field in the middle of the game.  But it was also possible for the father to leave once he knew that the mother would indeed carry out her threat.  Knowing that the mother will indeed pull the child out of the event if he's there, what is the point of his going to the games on her time - they'll be pulled as soon as he arrives.  He gains nothing because he still can't see his children play, and the children - they lose a LOT.

The proper thing to do - until he has a court order (supposedly) fixing this fiasco - is to simply stay away from the games during the mother's weekends so the children can comfortably play their sports.

Believe me, if you think the father is accumulating brownie points with his children by his actions, you're wrong.  And it's not just PAS by the mother causing the problems.  It's also his own willfulness that is the joint agent (along with the mother) in the face of his children's humiliation.

Quote from:  mdegol
And if you say, she may have a good reason for being uncomfortable (abusing, stalking ect) she states in her email "kids know that it is me, not you", so that indicates that it is a problem coming from her own end.


No, it indicates that she admits that she is having a problem.  That doesn't mean that she is the sole engineer of the problem.

BTW, saying 'I'm the problem, not your dad' doesn't sound like PAS to me.
 
And for the record, we're currently going through a much more mild version of this, with the non-custodial BM now hinting to SD9 that she won't go to activities if her custodial father or I attend an activity.  (Not that it matters.  She's never attended any activity in the last 2 years that we've had custody, anyhow.)
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: gemini3 on Oct 10, 2009, 11:25:24 AM
Interestingly, this exact scenario is covered in "Divorce Casualties" by Douglas Darnall, PhD.  On page 175 - "Mom, Why Can't Dad Come to My Game?"

"Children who are not alienated from either parent will want both parents to attend their social activities.  They want to show off their talent at sporting events or recitals so they can revel in their parents applause.  Only after the children have experienced alienation will they comment about not wanting both parents to attend.  [HIGHLIGHT=#ffff00]A custodial parent who refuses the other parent to attend an event or "forgetting" to give the other parent advance notice of their children's activities is encouraging alienation, usually for their own self-interest."[/HIGHLIGHT]

In his tips in this section he specifically says:

"Custodial parents have more power than noncustodial parents because they have physical possession of the children and can say no.  However, the noncutodial parent should not have to ask permission to attend one of their children's activities.  Otherwise, the other parent has too much power, which can be abused."
 
 
And that's all I have to say about that.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: snowrose on Oct 10, 2009, 01:20:19 PM

Interestingly, this exact scenario is covered in "Divorce Casualties" by Douglas Darnall, PhD.  On page 175 - "Mom, Why Can't Dad Come to My Game?"

"Children who are not alienated from either parent will want both parents to attend their social activities.  They want to show off their talent at sporting events or recitals so they can revel in their parents applause.  Only after the children have experienced alienation will they comment about not wanting both parents to attend.  [HIGHLIGHT=#ffff00]A custodial parent who refuses the other parent to attend an event or "forgetting" to give the other parent advance notice of their children's activities is encouraging alienation, usually for their own self-interest."[/HIGHLIGHT]

In his tips in this section he specifically says:

"Custodial parents have more power than noncustodial parents because they have physical possession of the children and can say no.  However, the noncutodial parent should not have to ask permission to attend one of their children's activities.  Otherwise, the other parent has too much power, which can be abused."


And that's all I have to say about that.

 
Gemini, I really don't think that anyone is disagree with the notions that you've quoted above.  The problem appears to be that some folks are willing to see that the father is also making things uncomfortable for the children and in a passive aggressive way is also wielding power, as he knows how the mother will react and is creating the reaction by his own actions.  That kind of passive aggressive action happening continually at game after game shows that the conflict is as willful on his part as it is on her part.  Other folks appear to hold him wholly blameless.
 
Both parents need a time out and to go to their 'respective corners' (stick to their own times) until the court can start to make both of them come to their senses.  They're obviously not going to do it on their own.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: Momfortwo on Oct 10, 2009, 01:48:06 PM

Interestingly, this exact scenario is covered in "Divorce Casualties" by Douglas Darnall, PhD.  On page 175 - "Mom, Why Can't Dad Come to My Game?"

"Children who are not alienated from either parent will want both parents to attend their social activities.  They want to show off their talent at sporting events or recitals so they can revel in their parents applause.  Only after the children have experienced alienation will they comment about not wanting both parents to attend.  [HIGHLIGHT=#ffff00]A custodial parent who refuses the other parent to attend an event or "forgetting" to give the other parent advance notice of their children's activities is encouraging alienation, usually for their own self-interest."[/HIGHLIGHT]

In his tips in this section he specifically says:

"Custodial parents have more power than noncustodial parents because they have physical possession of the children and can say no.  However, the noncutodial parent should not have to ask permission to attend one of their children's activities.  Otherwise, the other parent has too much power, which can be abused."


And that's all I have to say about that.

 
You know what?  As a victim of attempted PAS by my dad, I really didn't care WHO was to blame.  I was just tired of the fighting done by BOTH parents and being put in the middle.  It didn't matter who was at fault.  All that mattered is that BOTH parents (my mom less so than my dad) put all of my siblings in the middle. 
 
Just like the original poster and his ex are doing.  Like it or not, BOTH parents are to blame for putting the kids in the middle of their power struggle. 
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: Kitty C. on Oct 10, 2009, 02:11:25 PM
To repeat my previous post:
 
'As I stated before, if he could attend any event without her knowledge of him being there and she doesn't remove the children, then the problem is totally on her shoulders, given her past behavior........Obviously the kids are aware that the BM is forcing them choose her over Dad......and the longer this goes on, the more it will effect them long term.'
 
As rabid as the BM is about this, even after six years, she is no doubt obssessively watching for him.  I would not be surprised if he's tried to attend as unnoticed as possible, but she's probably searched until she's found him out.  THAT is obsessive and if she even willingly confessed to the children about it, she has some serious mental issues.  Yes, I recommend that he back off and if she doesn't like the situation but refuses to file in court for it, then he must.  Because this situation will only get progressively worse.  It is obviously having an effect on the children already.  But I only recommend that he back off....for him to completely give it up, it gives the kids the message that he's given up on them.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: snowrose on Oct 10, 2009, 10:15:41 PM

I would not be surprised if he's tried to attend as unnoticed as possible, but she's probably searched until she's found him out.


Kitty, the first time he went over to SD, called her and handed her ball to her.  That first time of being obvious is all it takes for someone already paranoid to be looking carefully around the next time.  (I'm guessing that SD had said something to BM about forgetting her ball at Daddy's so BM was checking the crowd for him to see if he'd bring it to her that day.)

Quote
Yes, I recommend that he back off and if she doesn't like the situation but refuses to file in court for it, then he must.  Because this situation will only get progressively worse.  It is obviously having an effect on the children already.  But I only recommend that he back off....for him to completely give it up, it gives the kids the message that he's given up on them.


I'm a little unclear as to what you mean by "for him to completely give it up"... Give what up?

But yes, it's the total effect on the children that has to be considered first and foremost - and Momfortwo's post makes that so evident...

Quote from: Momfortwo
As a victim of attempted PAS by my dad, I really didn't care WHO was to blame.  I was just tired of the fighting done by BOTH parents and being put in the middle.  It didn't matter who was at fault.  All that mattered is that BOTH parents... put all of my siblings in the middle.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: gemini3 on Oct 10, 2009, 10:54:50 PM
The whole reason it's called "Parental Alienation" is because the alienating parent makes it so difficult for the children to have a healthy, meaningful relationship with the targeted parent that they end up wishing the target parent would just go away so that life would be easier.  That's a typical response from a child - but it doesn't make alienation tactics justifiable in any sense of the word.
 
I can't believe that we're actually debating whether or not a father is a bad person for going to his kids soccer game and (gasp) handing his daughter a ball that she forgot at his house - and therefore deserves to have his ex-wife punish his children for his actions.  Un-freaking-believable.
 
Please.  This whole conversation has gotten beyond the point of ridiculousness - and clearly beyond the point of any usefulness it might have had for the original poster.
 
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: mdegol on Oct 11, 2009, 09:37:25 AM
Gemini,
Could not have said it better myself. I was trying but you expressed it perfectly. Dad is having a hard enough time.  Perfectly explains kid's response. Thanks.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: snowrose on Oct 11, 2009, 09:56:09 AM

I can't believe that we're actually debating whether or not a father is a bad person for going to his kids soccer game and (gasp) handing his daughter a ball that she forgot at his house - and therefore deserves to have his ex-wife punish his children for his actions.  Un-freaking-believable.


Gemini, do you ever remember as a child being told "It's not what you say, it's how you say it"?  Well, it's the same thing with parents and ball games.  It's not whether you go to the game, it's how/why you do it.

Your assumption - and that's all it is, an assumption - is that the father is doing all of this solely and entirely in goodwill.  Several of us as considering the possibility - just the possibility - that this might not be true and that instead he knows how to push BM's buttons and isn't telling us about that.  Heaven knows I've know quite a few people capable of that.

So, that's why some of us are saying take it to the courts and let the third party decide what has to be done - because we really don't know what's going on.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: mdegol on Oct 11, 2009, 10:04:44 AM
If that is the case, then giving advice here is very easy. It will always be "Go to court because we don't know both sides". We are always going to only hear one side, so we are always going to have to question the deep driving forces of the poster. We only know what he said, which he sounded quite reasonable and sincere to me.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: Kitty C. on Oct 11, 2009, 01:47:08 PM
'Kitty, the first time he went over to SD, called her and handed her ball to her.  That first time of being obvious is all it takes for someone already paranoid to be looking carefully around the next time.  (I'm guessing that SD had said something to BM about forgetting her ball at Daddy's so BM was checking the crowd for him to see if he'd bring it to her that day.)'

Good point......but my question is:  Why, after SIX YEARS is the BM still that paranoid?  Yes, there may be a whole lot more to this story, but if that's the case, then the only reason for her severe paranoia (other than the BM having a severe mental problem) would be there was actual criminal activity (stalking, harrassment, etc.) that the father had done in the past.  And if that were the case, then he would no doubt be court-ordered NOT to attend or BM would have a no-contact order against him and she would have every right to call the cops if he ever did show up.  That did NOT happen.

BM has some serious mental issues going on here and it is having a direct, significant, negative effect on the children and their relationship with their father.  If he does ever have to take this to court, I would strongly recommend demanding a psych eval. on the BM, so the courts have a better understanding of what is actually going on.  But whatever is done, it better be done soon.....this situation is not getting any better and is certainly progressively getting worse, and it will continue to have severe consequences on the children and their relationship with their father for a long time to come.  What we're seeing here is just the tip of the iceberg....there is no doubt a whole lot more incidious behavior and PAS going on and being perpetrated by the BM.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: CuriousMom on Oct 11, 2009, 03:54:18 PM
Kitty - when you speak about evaulations ordered by the court, what has to be said or shown for the judge to order this (other than confirmed criminal activity)?  Or is it "whatever mood the judge is in" type of decision?  I had already waived by first evaluation from the first pre-trial conference but didn't know if another one could be requested.  And I guess when - we already had a 2nd pre-trial conference and are scheduled for trial in 2 weeks.  Before I mention something to my attorney, thought I would query here first.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: jadig52 on Oct 11, 2009, 05:21:47 PM
Wow! I stopped checking replies a little bit ago because I wasn't getting any for a while. Now that I have checked, goodness, I have sparked quite the debate. And I have loved reading every bit of it. Most I agree with, some, I do not. Of the ones I don't agree with, there have been points made that are valid within my disagreement. Huh? Anyway...

I wish I would have been checking this forum more often so that I could explain and/or defend comments made. I thank ALL of you that have taken the time to respond to this issue. I would also like to discuss more with all of you the situation and update you on what has been happening. But, I will not do that at this time, perhaps later tonight, because my children are with me right now and I need to be with them the rest of this evening before they go back to their mothers house. Whew...long sentence.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: jadig52 on Oct 11, 2009, 05:23:31 PM
BTW...I am confused as to what all this is:
SD
BM
HD
SD
yadda yadda yadda
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: ocean on Oct 11, 2009, 05:29:16 PM
Ok...LOL

SD-step daughter
BM-Biological mother
DH- Depends...but mostly darling husband
SS- Step son
PB- Pycho bit_ _ (pertaining to the mother usually..)
CP- custodial parent
NCP - non custodial parent

I think that is most of them....if I see another one I'll update for you...
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: MixedBag on Oct 12, 2009, 01:09:53 PM
I'm on the side of going....and keeping your distance, moving forward to the bleachers over time.
 
If mom is going to use this as an excuse, and let's say dad didn't go.....  When there's another event, she'll do the SAME thing and over and over the scenario will repeat.
 
My son really appreciated it when I went the extra mile (or actually 750 miles) to go see him outside our normal time together -- and yes, dad flipped a few gourds, but not in public.....he reserved that for another wonderful letter to me.
 
Go.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: Davy on Oct 12, 2009, 04:14:05 PM
IMHO, dad is rational and his function is normal especially considering the PBFH (From Hell).   It is clearly appropriate for a parent to attend  any and all of their child's activities 24 x 7 every day of the year and typical court orders are written with that in mind.
 
I coached youth soccer for years.  As such Soccer was always considered a family sport and parental involvment was encouraged.  Each and every player was an IMPORTANT part of the team.  Everybody gets along with and supports all the players with encouragement.  It was " OUR " team.  The entire focus is on the well-being of the players.   Uhmm ... where have we heard that before.
 
Notice the coach exclaimed "That's strange" upon learning of the delimna.  I think it is very telling that a 15 yr old player would leave a game.  He was probably hoping to slide out of there before the PBFH caused anymore embarrassment.  The dad/son/daughter are to be commended for not reacting in an adverserial manner and FURTHER DISRRUPTING the team /game. 
 
Many youth recreational leagues have guidelines for guaranteed playing time unless the player does not participate in practice sessions (without good cause).  I had one PBFH who did not bring the player to practice sessions the week before dad's weekend.  Her way of punishing the child for going with his father. I quietly made sure he played.  The player's frown turn into a smile and all parents supported the action while shunning the PBFH.
 
Another thing, Competitive/Select/Club Soccer coaches often recruite parents ... not players.
Get it ?
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: snowrose on Oct 15, 2009, 01:11:34 AM

but my question is:  Why, after SIX YEARS is the BM still that paranoid?  Yes, there may be a whole lot more to this story, but if that's the case, then the only reason for her severe paranoia (other than the BM having a severe mental problem) would be there was actual criminal activity (stalking, harrassment, etc.) that the father had done in the past.  And if that were the case, then he would no doubt be court-ordered NOT to attend or BM would have a no-contact order against him and she would have every right to call the cops if he ever did show up.  That did NOT happen.

Do you really think it's paranoia?  I really don't.  I think that for whatever reason she just doesn't want the OP there when she's there, and she's willing to do whatever is necessary to make his going to the games 'unprofitable'.
 
 
*waiting to hear what the OP has to say about our discussions*
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: Kitty C. on Oct 15, 2009, 07:35:39 AM
Oh yeah, it certainly is paranoia.  So there's two ways to look at it:  either the BM is mentally off her rocker and the paranoia has overtaken her life.......OR she's so deep into the PAS that projecting the paranoia is the only way she can cover it up.
 
JMHO.......
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: Davy on Oct 15, 2009, 08:02:01 AM
The bottom line.  The mother is demanding of everybody for the FOCUS to be on her.  In the process she is conducting child abuse clinic directly to her own children and impacting the players and parents on both sides of the ball.  Youth sporting events are meant to be a fun learning experience for all involved. 

Casual observers at these events and the posters on this board realize this mother's behavior is strange and DOES NOT represent the status quo while the father's behavior does represent the status quo as a parent and particularly a soccer dad. 

In other words, it simply does not matter what the mother wants.

This parent has no authority to pull the goalie at half-time and as a soccer coach I would have advised a parent that this team (players, parents and coaches) DOES NOT EXIST TO PROMOTE THEIR SELF-SERVING EGO.

This is not being insensitive.  If you have a rat in the garbage disposal you simply turn on the water and then the disposal.  Disposal cleaner is $8 a packet at Home depot.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: MrCustodyCoach on Oct 20, 2009, 12:42:19 PM
I couldn't begin to disagree with momoftwo more strongly.  In our zeal to always find a way to place blame on "both" parties, comes the opinion that she expressed regarding the sporting event.

There is simply no other way to look at the situation and blame anyone other than the mother.  This is as clear a demonstration as there is of "using the children as a weapon."  By pulling the children from the game and leaving, she is sending them a clear and too often convincing set of messages:

-----

It doesn't matter how often the father has previously attended.  What this mother is doing is unconscionable and to suggest that the father is somehow to "blame" (in whole or in part) for the children being pulled from the game is, quite frankly, wrong.  It's a classic and overt effort to alienate the father from the children.  Suggesting that the father not attending is the "right thing to do for the kids" only perpetuates the impact on the children and supports the twisted efforts of the mother.

It doesn't get any more wrong than that.  The only person to blame for the situation is the mother.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: jadig52 on Oct 20, 2009, 02:47:14 PM
I just spent an hour and a half preparing and responding to all of this and it got wiped away. I am so pissed!
 
I have not forgotten you all!
I'll try again in a bit.
 
Thanks!
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: jadig52 on Oct 20, 2009, 05:05:15 PM

Alright, here we go again. So, here's a little background:

I met BM in '96. She had a two year old son. BM(pregnant with BD) and I married in '98. BD was born in Jan. of '99. Months later, the adoption of BM's son was finalized and I was his father. BF wanted no part and had no interest in BS. Two and a half years later, I walked. Two days later, I returned for the kids sake and tried hard to make marriage work. Two and a half years later(Sept. 2003), I walked again and never returned. I had a home, family, community, and comfort. I had no place to go, but could not live with that woman any more. I ended up in a house with four, twenty-something, male strangers. Wasn't exactly child friendly. I was in a world of massive confusion. Reconcile, for the kids sake? File for divorce? Fight for custody? Move to a different state? Suicide?

The next couple of months, I saw my children very little. Then, I wouldn't see them for months at a time. All the while, I was still working and sending, minimum, 75% of my weekly pay back to BM. In June of 2004, I moved to a one bedroom apartment. Soon after, a rough parenting plan and child support schedule was set up. I started seeing my kids every other weekend. I even invited BM into my apartment so that she could see how I was living. She thought that was nice. BM expressed to me her difficulty with me being around her. So therefore, I stayed away. Afterall, I was the one who left and would do just about anything to make the transition from happily married couple to happily divorced parents as easy as possible. That day still has yet to arrive. I took them to soccer games on my weekends and stayed away on hers.

In July of 2006, I moved, with my new girlfriend(I can hear it now, but that's a different topic, my kids love DH(daddy's hottie).) 16 miles closer and within 8 miles of BM. Here is an excerpt from an email from me to BM:

My main concern was getting a house closer to them. Have their own rooms, a yard to play in, potential friends to hang out with, and maybe a desire out of them to call me and visit when they need me. I got this house for them. No one else. I have agreed that I have been a horrible father in the past. All I can do now is try and make it better. I believe that I am exhibiting that.

Since then, the email communication has been, well, difficult. I have tried to be as civil as possible with BM. She can really push my buttons, but, I will NOT stoop to her level, for the kids sake, and for the sake of how the courts might respond to any action being taken soon. Here are some examples of the abuse I have taken:

(July 24, 2006) The every other weekend dad, I'm sorry but that's not a parent, that's a babysitter.

(My daughter missed a day of summer school and I asked BM as to the reason why. July 29, 2006)
BD missed Thur. cause she was sick (throwing up). That's the only day. Most of the school days she missed were after coming home from your house due to emotional stress so FUCK YOU!

(Sept. 13, 2006) Please don't call me, I don't want to hear your voice, it's like nails on a chalk board.

(Jan. 2, 2007 BM had a guy friend stay at her house during the holidays while the kids were with me. I stated that I would like to meet him if he were to be a fixture in the kids lives) FUCK OFF, seriously just die already. (Within the same email, I asked if she had worked with son on his homework the first 5 days of their winter break with her.) Again, fuck off!

(Jan. 3, 2007) My life would be so much easier without you in it and believe me, I don't need you!


(Jan. 9, 2007) About 'sons' phone, I pay for it, I bought it for specific reasons and one of them is not for your use. Do not call him or text him on it any more.



(Jan. 10, 2007) Please do not contact me in any way unless it is an emergancy with the kids. As far as the letter just so you know it went straight to the fire.

(Feb. 1, 2007) Go ahead tell me how great your relationship is with those kids, theirs are the words that I remember. Last you have told me to respect you and I will not because you still have given me nothing to respect. (I told her, hate the ex-husband, but respect the father of your kids.)

(Feb, 10, 2007) Your email has been blocked from this account.

(May 7, 2007 My daughter was to have surgery on her ear and I wanted to be there for her.) This surgery is not supposed to be as big a deal as the last one and I hope that you can work with me on this. I am not trying to be a jerk and I'm glad you want to be there more for the kids but as I said before I just can't handle being in such a small space with you at this time. I hope you can understand my position.

(Sept. 18, 2007 This one references soccer games.)Putting aside the fact that I have spent A LOT of money for soccer, they are on a team and that means they have a responsibility to their teammates and coach. Not taking them to the games was very irresponsible on your part. (Some of my responce) BM, I don't like the way you do some things with the kids when they are in your care. But, I don't have the right to judge your parenting. You do a fine job. I realize it's not all fun and games. On the flip side, I know you don't like the way I do some things when they are in me and DH's care. What we do here is for them. The extra curricular activities, the meals, the discipline, everything...I appreciate your eagerness to put me in my place. But, please, don't tell me I am irresponsible. I want nothing more than a better life for me, you, DH, and our kids.

(Nov. 19, 2007) After this message I am going to give myself a holiday present and stop contact with you by not opening your emails or answering your phone calls.


(Jan. 11, 2008) From a text message: I can't get email from you
(April 30, 2008) From a text message: BS was tardy...it IS his fault. Getting tired of getting emails regarding 'son'....just letting you know.

(Jan. 7, 2009 ) Text from my son: My mom wants to know if its your weekend. (To which I emailed BM) You should keep track on a calendar at home or check the one I set up online. Please don't ask 'son' to find out information that you want to know. Call me or email me. (And her reply) Do you always have to be such a dick? A simple no would have worked, I don't need lectures from you. I ask the kids from time to time because I don't want to deal with this kind of crap, they have to but I don't.

(March 27, 2009 When my son wanted a 'myspace' page, I told him that would be fine as long as me and his mother knew his username AND password. My EX agreed. I kept her informed. My sons behavior at school forced me to delete his myspace page. I then find out on my own that my son has a 'facebook' page. I asked on several occations why I was not told. Here is her responce.) As far as Facebook why don't you think really hard, here's a clue...YOUR AN ASSHOLE!



(April 19, 2009 The beginning of this whole PAS investigation) BM, I don't hate you, I hate the lack of communication we have. I hate the fact that we can't share the joy of our children's accomplishments together. I hate that we fight. I hate the way that you hate me. I hate the way our relationship hurts our children.
I asked BD when her play was after I picked her up today. She said that it already happened. I asked why she didn't tell me when it was, she said she forgot. I called her out and told her to be honest with me. She KNEW I was excited to see her perform. She told me that if I went, then you said that you would not go. I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but, that just doesn't seem fair for her to have to pick who gets to go. You, me, and her should all be excited that we can share these moments. If that is not the story, and I misunderstood exactly what happened, then I am sorry. (Her responce) You have made it impossible for me to be anywhere near you. I told her I would go to the rehearsal and you could go to the main play, I told her we could switch every other performance she is in. Again YOU have made the situation the way it is and you can go when it is your weekend. You do not help pay for these activities you do not go to EVERY practice, you want to get the benefits without the work. Not fair, not happening. If you push this you will be hurting the kids because out of the two of us they would rather me be there and if you go I wont.

I know this is super long. I realize all you have to go on is my side. What I am trying to demonstate here is the fact that I have kept my distance while trying to build a civil relationship with my ex-wife. I am done excluding myself and submitting to her condition. It's just bulls@*t that my EX gets to behave this way.

[HIGHLIGHT=#ffffff]MomofTwo[/HIGHLIGHT], while I agree to an extent that sending her options on how the kids can play in every game was wrong, I was not wrong in going to that game. I called her bluff and she happened to have a Royal Flush. Mom wins AGAIN and Dad is broke while his kids continue to be brainwashed by a BM with PAS! [/FONT]

My boy has since voiced his displeasure with soccer and has 'mysteriously' lost interest. He has not been to a game since Sept 26th, my weekend. He also didn't play Oct. 10th because he was 'sick'. My daughter has played in every game on my weekends. Their mother has not brought them to any practices or games on her weekends. And I did offer to take the kids to practices.

I'm sure their are people out there who realize and understand how hard it is to 'not give up'. If I didn't care about my children, I would not have spent so much time on this forum.

My computer had a nasty virus and was out of commition for a bit. I will be online more often now, so please ask any questions and/or send me a personal message.
Thanks!
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: MrCustodyCoach on Oct 20, 2009, 05:35:02 PM
Well, the first thing I see is that you communicate with her way too much about issues that can come back and bite you in the rear-end.  Emails that contain language like, "I admit I've been a horrible father..." don't go over well in court.

Your first order of business should be to learn about appropriate communication techniques and sticking by them.  Less is more and anything not important directly pertaining to the children - shouldn't even warrant a moment's attention from you.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: CuriousMom on Oct 20, 2009, 07:01:30 PM
I also think you have every right to be attending the children's activities.  I'd stop any communication with her other than the kids schedules/visitation.  Be the bigger person, ignore her hatred and stick to the CO - no small talk.  I know, easier said than done....I've been there (http://www.deltabravo.net/forum/Smileys/default/wink.gif). 
 
What happened in the past is water under the bridge and you've bounced back from that rough period, but she hasn't gotten over what happened years ago....just my opinion.  But she should not be using the kids in any fashion in her revenge for you.  And she is.
 
 
 
 
 
 
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: MrCustodyCoach on Oct 20, 2009, 07:48:25 PM
10 Top Ways to Fight Parental Alienation (http://www.mrcustodycoach.com/blog/10-top-ways-fight-parental-alienation)

10 Top Rules of Low-Contact with High Conflict Personalities (http://www.mrcustodycoach.com/blog/top-10-rules-of-low-contact)

The second article has a track-back link to another post-divorce communications article as well.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: MomofTwo on Oct 21, 2009, 05:41:12 AM
The bottom line is, legally, if your orders give you the right to be there if the children are in activities, then you have the right to be there.  Unless the court orders mandate either parent HAS to enroll the children in sports/activities, Mom is at liberty not to enroll them.  If you want to enroll them to participate on your time, and you by order are allowed to, then you can do the same.  All of this crosses a line regarding what either parent can do and should do for their children, and that line is very vague here.  Legally, she doesn't have to put them in sports, legally you can attend, but when it comes down to what is occuring (her not enrolling them so there won't be any events for you to attend), seems to be the only ones losing because both parents want to show control, is the kids.
 
You need to follow your orders regarding visitation and probably stop with any communication with Mom (obviously not for urgent issues/illness) that is not required. Anything outside the orders, you two clearly don't see eye to eye, which is why you have orders to follow.  When I said you had no right to negotitate with her and tell her what to do with the kids on her designated time, I meant legally. Of course as adults and parents, that should occur, but when it cannot, then the orders need to be followed. 
 
Clearly, these emails are very one sided and do not present the totality of the situation.  I agree with Curius Mom, someone needs to be the bigger person here and I know how hard it can be to bite your tongue and hold back sometimes, but someone has to.  For the sake of the children.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: MrCustodyCoach on Oct 21, 2009, 10:26:13 AM
Yes, learning and employing low-contact is absolutely critical in a high-conflict situation.  It took me years to discover, many months to get into it, and it takes a lot of practice, patience, and discipline.

However, I have yet to have a single person come back to me and say, "You know, I tried low-contact and it sucked."  Not once.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: sillystring on Oct 22, 2009, 08:44:07 AM
Mr Custody - those links did not work for me..
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: jadig52 on Oct 24, 2009, 01:19:42 AM
Me neither...
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: MrCustodyCoach on Oct 27, 2009, 12:37:03 PM
For some reason, the site or someone operating within it has changed the links to my articles to "parentingtime.net"

Not sure I violated any TOS rules, and if I did, no one notified me of anything.  Apologies, but the bad links are not my doing.

If you want to read the articles, replace "parentingtime" with my user ID and you'll see them.  In the meantime, I'll contact admin to make sure I'm not crossing the line and maybe make some other arrangements with them so that I can continue to help here on the forums.
Title: Re: PAS? Anyone Else?
Post by: MrCustodyCoach on Oct 27, 2009, 03:38:09 PM
The links have apparently been fixed.

Thank you, Admin.   (http://www.deltabravo.net/forum/richedit/smileys/YahooIM/101.gif)