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Author Topic: Speaking of passports...  (Read 10867 times)

teacher98

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Speaking of passports...
« on: Dec 26, 2009, 08:50:30 PM »
So after all of this talk of Sean Goldman and passports, I started wondering a few things.  My DH was asked about 2 years back by BM to meet her at the post office and sign for a passport. She was getting married on a cruise and SS was going.  DH told her to just give him a time to meet her. Well, things were a little rough at that time and she ended up getting really mad at DH.  She never brought up the issue again and we just figured that she didn't get one since the passport rules had not changed at that time.  Well SS gets back from the cruise and is excited about his passport. He talked about going to the post office and getting his photo taken.  Hmmmm....  How did she get a passport without DH signing for it?  DH has an updated birth cert after paternity testing was done, however, she still has the old one.  Could she have obtained a passport with this b.c. that does not list DH?  Even though this was 2 years ago, could this be something against her in a court situation if and when we need to go to change the parenting plan


ocean

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Re: Speaking of passports...
« Reply #1 on: Dec 26, 2009, 09:15:13 PM »
I just looked it up too....If one parent has SOLE custody then they can sign off with the court orders. So this only applies to Joint custody where they would need both signatures...

teacher98

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Re: Speaking of passports...
« Reply #2 on: Dec 26, 2009, 09:35:25 PM »
I looked at the info online too and I read that as well. DH has joint legal with sole physical going to BM. The thing is I think she either 1. knew she needed DH to sign and just worked the system showing that the court order shows her with the residential custody or 2. someone processing the passport at the post office didn't do their due dilegence to check all the paper work.

bloom6372

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Re: Speaking of passports...
« Reply #3 on: Dec 26, 2009, 11:31:34 PM »
What did their court order say at the time she did all this? If it said joint legal, then she couldn't get it without your DH's signature. If that's the case, I would contact the Department of Travel (or whatever it's called) and see if they have a copy of the application on file. If so, you will be able to see if she used the old birth certificate or if she forged your DH's signature. You could definitely use it in Court if she forged it, even if just to show her character.

Davy

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Re: Speaking of passports...
« Reply #4 on: Dec 27, 2009, 07:15:16 PM »
Amazing !!   

1)  Encourages rather than prevents child abduction including stranger abduction.

2)  Government clerical workers intrepreting  custody orders.   


I applied for a passport once and attempted to renew son's passport.  Can't remember why but I seem to recall they would not allow me to renew son's passport... I had all the docs.  Since son and I were traveling together to visit older son they forced me to enter his mother's info... so the communication became a little dicey...no a lot dicey....

I made a cell phone call in front of the clerk and asked my responsible adult  28yo son if he remembered his mother's name.


Everyside

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Re: Speaking of passports...
« Reply #5 on: Dec 27, 2009, 08:09:48 PM »
I have sole custody of my two children.  We go on a trip to Mexico every other year.  I've had all kinds of trouble no matter how prepared I am with all my paperwork.
 
My favorite (sarcasm) was when I showed the flight attendant at the gate my custody paperwork.  It showed me as having sole legal and physical custody and bio-dad paying child support.  The flight attendant said "If he is paying child support, he has some custody so you need his notarized signature."
 
"No, I have full custody as shown right here in the official court paperwork"
 
"Well, I don't think that's fair.  He should have custody if he's paying support.  You'll have to talk to my supervisor."
 
What the hell?  Why in the hell does your opinion matter at all flight attendant?!??!   Luckily, the supervisor said "Have a nice flight" as soon as she saw my paperwork and we were the last folks loaded on the plane.
 
 
My other favorite was trying to get back into the states from Mexico.  After giving them all the paperwork (two different divorces between us and three different custody situations with his, mine and ours children) we ended up with a huge crowd of Mexican officials speaking rapid Spanish and pointing at us a lot.   Finally, after about 20 minutes, one of the officials came over and said we could go.
 
When I asked what the problem was so we could avoid it next time she said "Some of them had a hard time believing you were really from the states because you have so many children.  We usually only see Mexican's with that many kids."    I thought she was joking but another offical said the same thing to us.    lol   We only have four kids total.
 
 

teacher98

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Re: Speaking of passports...
« Reply #6 on: Dec 28, 2009, 08:44:24 AM »
Unbelievable!  So let me ask this...if the original birth certificate has only BM listed and NOT DH, could she have used that to obtain the passport even though the court order gives DH joint legal custody and parenting time?

MomofTwo

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Re: Speaking of passports...
« Reply #7 on: Dec 28, 2009, 09:15:24 AM »
Possibly, but considering it was two years ago, it is highly unlikely this can be used against her in court or for a parenting time change.  It was two years ago, she came back, it was a honeymoon...they aren't a flight risk, the courts are very unlikely to view this as an issue.

Davy

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Re: Speaking of passports...
« Reply #8 on: Dec 28, 2009, 06:05:03 PM »
Whatever !  The bottom line is that she frauded the federal government in a process designed to protect children thus placing the child at risk.  Standing alone such an act should have serious consequences and one would think a family court would seriously frown on such obnoxious behavior and character.

MomofTwo

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Re: Speaking of passports...
« Reply #9 on: Dec 28, 2009, 07:25:11 PM »
Whatever. The fact they waited two years to bring it up shows it wasn't an issue.  You don't wait two years if something was that important. I highly doubt family court does anything about it at this juncture.

Davy

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Re: Speaking of passports...
« Reply #10 on: Dec 28, 2009, 08:36:40 PM »
Yes.  These EXCUSES are exactly why the court system is BROKEN and how children continue to be unprotected and placed at risk.   

MixedBag

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Re: Speaking of passports...
« Reply #11 on: Dec 29, 2009, 07:50:07 AM »
Wanna get back to the original question....
 
For the longest time -- like 8 years now -- it's been my understanding that the law changed and BOTH parents have to sign in order to get a child's passport until the child themselves becomes 14 and can sign for their own.
 
Now I'm doing this off the top of my head -- not doing the internet research to attach links to this stuff, but I have family overseas and travel and kids.....so passports were and are part of my life.
 
I remember getting my son a passport just before the "rules changed" to having both signatures required and thinking that when it expired, there would only be "one summer" where he might not have one so I couldn't plan a vacation to Germany etc....just over that summer....
 
Anyways....also looked into something just last month because BF's nephew, niece, and sister and husband went on a cruise to Mexico and nephew (of age) surely didn't have a passport.  Seems as if there are still loopholes, and there will be even after Jan 1st, where if the trip is a "closed loop" trip, passports are not required.    Since the original question came up as a result of a cruise trip -- a passport may not have been required.
 
And now they are doing two different things -- passports and some similar thing geez, forgot what it was called, but it didn't cost as much as a passport -- like a travel ID.....
 
IMHO -- if you/parent thinks there's gonna be a problem, then put the child on that watch list that was linked in the Sean Goldman thread.
 
Go to the post office and get the form and see what it says TODAY....not what it used to say because things have changed in that arena and they will continue to change with all that is going on in the world today.

teacher98

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Re: Speaking of passports...
« Reply #12 on: Dec 29, 2009, 08:29:31 AM »
Thanks everyone!!  DH didn't make a huge issue, because SS did come back and he doesn't want to drag everything into court.  We questioned the legality of it back then, but left it alone because things were shaky enough with BM. DH is trying to be civil with BM and work things out between them as much as possible. It is really hard sometimes and we are super flexible and often get the short end of the deal for the sake of SS.  We are, however, not naive to the ins and outs of court and just want to have a full arsenal if and when we need to go before a judge.  I just thought I would bring it up here since it seemed relevant to current events.  I would still like to know more opinions if anyone thinks a parent with joint legal and sole physical can obtain a passport with only a birth certificate that does not list the father.

MomofTwo

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Re: Speaking of passports...
« Reply #13 on: Dec 29, 2009, 08:46:49 AM »
Passport requirements for air travel changed in 2007, for land and sea, they did not change until June 2009.  It wasn't until 2008 both parents signature or affadavit was required, so yes, Mom could have legally obtained a passport two years ago without Dad's signature or affadavit and it was totally legal.

teacher98

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Re: Speaking of passports...
« Reply #14 on: Dec 29, 2009, 09:37:03 AM »
Thanks momoftwo.  Where did you read that?

MixedBag

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Re: Speaking of passports...
« Reply #15 on: Dec 29, 2009, 01:23:27 PM »

Davy

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Re: Speaking of passports...
« Reply #16 on: Dec 29, 2009, 02:27:17 PM »
 
FOR CLARIFICATION for another poster :
 
Please notice the words "ENTRY" to the US from Canada, Mexico, the Caribbean, and Bermuda
New Passport and Border Entry Rules: The Basics





The requirement for travelers to present a passport to enter the United States when arriving by air from any part of the Western Hemisphere took effect on January 23, 2007. This means that all persons -- including U.S. citizens -- traveling by air to the U.S. from destinations such as Canada, Mexico, Bermuda, and the Caribbean must have a valid passport to enter the U.S.
(Note: In June 2007, the U.S. State Department announced the temporary Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative (WHTI) accommodation, which allowed U.S. citizens to travel by air within the Western Hemisphere using an official proof of passport application receipt. The WHTI ended as scheduled on Sept. 30, 2007, and the full passport requirements described in this article are in effect.)
Timeline for New Passport and Border Entry Rules
The new passport and border entry requirements are to be implemented in phases. The first phase (effective January 23, 2007) applied only to air travel. The second phase (effective January 31, 2008) affects U.S. citizens seeking entry into the U.S. at the U.S.-Canada and U.S.-Mexico borders. A third phase of passport requirements will extend to all land and sea travel to the U.S., at a date to be determined by the Department of Homeland Security.
Phase 1 - JANUARY 23, 2007: Passport requirement applies to all air travel to the U.S. from Canada, Mexico, the Caribbean, and Bermuda. The only air travelers who will be exempted from the new passport requirements are those traveling with a Merchant Mariner's Document or NEXUS Air card.
Phase 2 - JANUARY 31, 2008: U.S. citizens age 19 or older seeking entry into the U.S. at the border must present documentation that proves both identity and citizenship, such as a valid U.S. passport. Identification documents must include a photo, name and date of birth. (See Document Options, from the Department of Homeland Security). Children ages 18 and under will only be required to present proof of citizenship, such as a birth certificate. For more information on the new border identification requirements, see Travel Document Requirements FAQ from the Department of Homeland Security.
Phase 3 - DATE TO BE DETERMINED: Passport requirements are planned for all travelers seeking entry into the U.S. by land or sea. This page will be updated as new information becomes available.

teacher98

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Re: Speaking of passports...
« Reply #17 on: Dec 29, 2009, 06:18:52 PM »
Thanks Davy for clarifying the rules of entry and exity. That is good to know. However, I am still curios as to if the post office would accept only a birth certificate with mother only listed as enough documentation for a passport.  DH had joint legal custody of his son but the birth certificate still only listed mother.  Many children have situations like this, so wouldn't it be necessary to always have BOTH parents there unless there was clear proof that one of the parents was deceased or not a legal guardian?  Hypothetically speaking, BM could have obtained the passport this way and then took SS away forever.  Any thoughts??

mdegol

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Re: Speaking of passports...
« Reply #18 on: Dec 29, 2009, 07:32:25 PM »
Yes, to get a passport or renew a passport, you need to present a valid birth certificate.  Both parents need to be present, or a notarized letter from the other parent needs to be presented, or custody papers showing that one parent has sole legal.  If mother presented an old birth certificate, the post office doesn't know that there is an updated one.  Are you saying the old birth certificate left the father as blank or unknown?  I guess if she used it, the post office would accept it, since that situation must come up here and there.  Otherwise, people under 18 that don't know who their father are could never get a passport, which doesn't make a lot of sense.  Post office has no way of knowing that birth certificate is no longer valid.  But for sure she was playing with fire if this was done.  For a cruise, I am not sure that child would have needed it back then.  Probably depended on the rules of the cruise line.


Here's the thing: I don't think you can stop people from doing something that is illegal, like kidnapping, if that is in their nature.   I think a lot of these protections are there more to make people feel better than to actually stop these sort of crimes.  If someone is intent on committing the act, they will do it somehow.  It like the Brazilian mother, she used deception to get child out of country (probably most common way these things happen).  A silly thing like a passport won't stop these people.  Anyway, people take kids away and stay within US borders.  Personally, I think it is important for child to experience foreign cultures, so generally, one should allow international vacations.

CuriousMom

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Re: Speaking of passports...
« Reply #19 on: Jan 01, 2010, 11:51:52 AM »
I only brought it up in the other thread because a woman a work with said something she experienced but I didn't think it was totally correct. 
 
Her nephews father wanted to take him out of the country on vacation.  Her sister was okay with it, they got their son a passport so he could go, but their destination/country required a notarized letter with the absent parent's consent  in addition to the valid passport. 
 
I don't know when it occured in relevance to the entry/exit changes over the years.
 
 
Teacher98 -
 
I got my son's passport without dad's consent, no intentions of fleeing the country, because he was absent at the time and there was no custody order in effect. 

 

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