Non-Custodial Father seeks Joint Custody

[concerned_stepmom]

My husband has a 4 year old daughter from a previous marriage. At the time of the divorce he was out of state and she went to court and recieved Sole Custody in the state of Oklahoma. Since this time, he has paid his child support and there was a point where we was allowed to get the daughter when we wanted. (It was almost every weekend). That was until she moved in with her now husband.  I would say in the last year and a half, the ex has become crazy. She agrees to visitation, then mid visitation she changes the plans or tries to cut our visitation short. The daughter was enrolled in a private school this last august 06'. The mother provided us with a reciept for the whole tuition of $1700 that she said she paid. We agreed to pay half. We had been giving her checks since she gave us a receipt. In December, she said that we needed to do something about the school. This gave us concern that she did not tell us the truth. I called the school to find out if she actually paid the tuition like the receipt states.... SHE HAD NOT PAID A DIME! The teacher said she did not sign the receipt. So from then on we paid the school our half. As of this day she has not paid her half. She accuses my husband of being unstable... which he has had the same job for the last 2 years (and provides insurance) and we bought a house 2 years ago as well. So we aren't going anywhere. We live about 120 miles away from his daughter. She has made reference several times that he has no rights and has no say in what happens with the daughter. When we say we are going by the plans already agreed to she says we are with holding her daughter from her. Any question about what is going on.. she says he owes her for something or he is a bad person & father.  What is wrong with him wanting to be apart of his daughters life. Do we have enough evidence to prove that we deserve Joint Custody & physical custody? We have kept the forged receipt and emails that have cooresponded with inquiries of her plans.

[Jade]

>My husband has a 4 year old daughter from a previous
>marriage. At the time of the divorce he was out of state and
>she went to court and recieved Sole Custody in the state of
>Oklahoma. Since this time, he has paid his child support and
>there was a point where we was allowed to get the daughter
>when we wanted. (It was almost every weekend). That was until
>she moved in with her now husband.  I would say in the last
>year and a half, the ex has become crazy. She agrees to
>visitation, then mid visitation she changes the plans or tries
>to cut our visitation short. The daughter was enrolled in a
>private school this last august 06'. The mother provided us
>with a reciept for the whole tuition of $1700 that she said
>she paid. We agreed to pay half. We had been giving her checks
>since she gave us a receipt. In December, she said that we
>needed to do something about the school. This gave us concern
>that she did not tell us the truth. I called the school to
>find out if she actually paid the tuition like the receipt
>states.... SHE HAD NOT PAID A DIME! The teacher said she did
>not sign the receipt. So from then on we paid the school our
>half. As of this day she has not paid her half. She accuses my
>husband of being unstable... which he has had the same job for
>the last 2 years (and provides insurance) and we bought a
>house 2 years ago as well. So we aren't going anywhere. We
>live about 120 miles away from his daughter. She has made
>reference several times that he has no rights and has no say
>in what happens with the daughter. When we say we are going by
>the plans already agreed to she says we are with holding her
>daughter from her. Any question about what is going on.. she
>says he owes her for something or he is a bad person & father.
> What is wrong with him wanting to be apart of his daughters
>life. Do we have enough evidence to prove that we deserve
>Joint Custody & physical custody? We have kept the forged
>receipt and emails that have cooresponded with inquiries of
>her plans.
>
>

With the father living 120 miles away, joint physical custody (and the young age really isn't ideal for it, either) isn't feasible.  Joint legal is.  But you have to get a judge to agree to change the status quo.

What does the father's court order say in regards to parenting time?  Is it vague or clearly spelled out with dates (every 1st and 2nd weekend of every month is specific, EOW is vague)?  If it is vague, the father really needs to go to court to get it clearly spelled out so that she can't play games with his parenting time.  

[concerned_stepmom]

The standard visitation is very vague. Everyother weekend, and everyother holiday. So you are saying that we don't have a right to have Joint Physical Custody when she is the one trying to extort money from us and causing grief to her daughter by not letting her daughter see her dad? She is alienating her from us. She lies, theatens us and is very manipulative.  

[mistoffolees]

>The standard visitation is very vague. Everyother weekend,
>and everyother holiday. So you are saying that we don't have a
>right to have Joint Physical Custody when she is the one

What she said was very clear - that joint physical custody is very difficult to impossible for parents of a school age child when there's a lot of distance between them.

>trying to extort money from us and causing grief to her
>daughter by not letting her daughter see her dad? She is
>alienating her from us. She lies, theatens us and is very
>manipulative.  

Unfortunately, there's nothing in your post that seems to rise to the level of being able to challenge custody. Custody is based on what's best for the kids. The mother lying to you is irrelevant - as are many of your complaints.

Some of her statements are accurate. If she has sole legal custody, then she's right when she says you have no say in what happens to the daughter.

You need a pretty strong reason to change the status quo - and you haven't presented anything so far.

From what you've presented, you MAY have a chance of joint legal and her retaining sole physical, but I can't see you getting physical custody, either - unless there's something terrible you haven't mentioned.

[Jade]

>The standard visitation is very vague. Everyother weekend,
>and everyother holiday. So you are saying that we don't have a
>right to have Joint Physical Custody when she is the one
>trying to extort money from us and causing grief to her
>daughter by not letting her daughter see her dad? She is
>alienating her from us. She lies, theatens us and is very
>manipulative.  


I am saying that the child is too young and more importantly, the father lives too far away from her to even make it a possibility.  

Joint physical is hard to work out, while some parents can make it work, the ones who do live much closer than what the father does in this case.

And joint physical isn't going to make the mother any less manipulative (only going by your side of the story here).  

A clearly spelled out parenting plan with specific dates is what is going to help the father.  

[concerned_stepmom]

So you are saying that Joint Custody only works if the parents live close together? I can't seem to understand what is wrong with the picture that the mother thinks she can control every situation between her daughter and the father.  We have her on tape saying that she will not allow him to see his daughter anymore, but don't stop calling her. The new husband called my husband a F-N idiot!  (they live in an old trailer on a salvage yard!).  It is sad when we have to take her back that she cries because she doesn't want to go. I would never want to keep her from her mother, but she clearly isn't putting Mica first. She is being selfish.

[mistoffolees]

>So you are saying that Joint Custody only works if the
>parents live close together? I can't seem to understand what
>is wrong with the picture that the mother thinks she can
>control every situation between her daughter and the father.
>We have her on tape saying that she will not allow him to see
>his daughter anymore, but don't stop calling her. The new
>husband called my husband a F-N idiot!  (they live in an old
>trailer on a salvage yard!).  It is sad when we have to take
>her back that she cries because she doesn't want to go. I
>would never want to keep her from her mother, but she clearly
>isn't putting Mica first. She is being selfish.

There's a difference between joint physical and joint legal custody. There's no reason parents can't have joint legal custody even if they're distant. But it's not practical to have joint physical custody when the parents are far apart.

As for the rest, you can't realistically do anything about what she says. But if she doesn't let him see the kids and you have a valid court order for custody, then you can file for contempt. If there is danger to the kids, you can file for a change in custody, but unfortunately, calling the ex an idiot doesn't typically rise to that level.

[krazyfamily_6]

I think you are misunderstanding what the other posters are trying to say here.  There is a difference between joint legal and joint physical.  

Joint legal~  legal status or "custodianship" vesting authority to approve all major decisions affecting a minor child. "Joint," "split," and "shared" legal custody require both parents' approval of all major decisions.

Joint physical~ Relates to the physical location of the child. The adult with whom the child resides is said to have physical custody. Such terms as "sole," "primary," "shared," and "joint" are used to describe various parenting and visitation plans.

You can't really expect to share joint physical custody if there is a large distance between the two parents.  I can't see a judge ordering joint physical if it meant changing schools.  That is not good for the child either.

Nobody said that it is ok for the mother to alienate the child from the father.  It is wrong for any parent to come in between the other parent's relationship with the child UNLESS there is CLEAR evidence of some kind of abuse or neglect.  

If the mother is refusing visitation and you have a court order for visitation, take her to court for contempt.

As far as custody goes, many on this site can tell you that the courts do not like to change the status quo unless there is a very good reason to do so.  

[concerned_stepmom]

So because she does not want us to have joint legal custody that we shouldn't get it? That makes no SENSE! She has no reason why we can't share except for her not to benefit from all the child support, insurance and tax credit she gets and to hold it over us that my husband has no rights any time she wants to.  She is used to live 60 miles away then she moved farther away. She expects us to do all the driving. That is over $100  and 400+ miles on my car everytime we go to get and take her back plus everything else we provide. Is it wrong to ask her to do half the driving. (she says she is a housewife and doesn't work in her husbands auto salvage business) So she said she has no income. except what child support she gets which is about $400 a month!

[mistoffolees]

>So because she does not want us to have joint legal custody
>that we shouldn't get it? That makes no SENSE! She has no

No one said that. What was said is that you're unlikely to get joint PHYSICSAL custody from a distance.

You MIGHT be able to get joint legal, but you have the burden of proof to show that it's better for the child. Frankly, joint legal isn't worth a bucket of warm spit, IMHO, though.

>reason why we can't share except for her not to benefit from
>all the child support, insurance and tax credit she gets and

You're confusing issues again. If you have joint legal, that's not going to change the child support. Child support is typically (but not always) paid from tne Noncustodial parent to the custodial parent. Legal custody has no bearing on that.

Nor does custody determination affect tax credits. The IRS has specific rules on who gets the tax deduction. IF you divorce decree states that a different person will get the deduction, the IRS will allow it. But it's very unlikely that a judge will change it after the fact.

>to hold it over us that my husband has no rights any time she
>wants to.  She is used to live 60 miles away then she moved
>farther away. She expects us to do all the driving. That is
>over $100  and 400+ miles on my car everytime we go to get and
>take her back plus everything else we provide. Is it wrong to
>ask her to do half the driving. (she says she is a housewife
>and doesn't work in her husbands auto salvage business) So she
>said she has no income. except what child support she gets
>which is about $400 a month!

Try supporting a child on $400 per month.

I would suggest that you read some of the great articles on this site to learn about the different types of custody, support, and so on. THEN, you can determine if you want a battle to try to change the visitation. IMHO, you're not going to change custody (based on what you've written), but you may be able to get more liberal visitation.

As for transportation, what does the divorce decree say? If it's silent on the matter, then the NCP is going to pay, as a practical matter. If the decree says that the cost is split, then you have a right to get some money from the CP. Also, if you're not getting the amount of visitation specified in the decree, you can sue for contempt. If you ARE getting the amount of visitation specified (or if nothing is specified), then you're stuck - unless you want to go to the trouble of asking the judge for more visitiation.

It's important to keep the issues separate. Don't confuse custody with support with visitation. They're all separate - read some of the articles on this site.

[krazyfamily_6]

I think the OP is just not understanding the difference between legal and physical custody.


Before my DH got custody of his son, he shared joint legal with the BM.  It pretty much meant squat.  He would have to take her back to court to enforce anything major and by then, the deed would already be done.  I feel that joint legal is just a term to make the NCP feel more involved.  But that is JMO.

[lilywhite]

There is no automatic do-over to custody just because you don't like that result.  In the time between the final divorce decree awarding parental rights and responsibilities and now there has to have been a significant change in circumstances that affect the child for a new custody decision to be made.

So the question of why your husband doesn't deserve joint custody and physical custody is really moot.  

Her forging a receipt and emails don't mean squat.  Think of each thing that you complain about in this way.  Does it matter to the well-being of the child         that her mother forged a receipt to you? Does it matter to the well-being of the child that your husband (or you) has decided that now he wants custody where he apparently didn't before?  NOPE.  You say that at the time of the divorce he was out of state.  He had to have been notified and it had to have been proved that he was notified for the divorce to take place.  Is he now claiming that he wasn't notified of the divorce?  If so, then he had some period of time after he found out to fight the judge's order.  If not, then the court will think that he believed that his ex-wife was the one who should have custody.  And, in fact, if he was living out of state from his daughter at the time of the divorce, he apparently did think that his wife was capable of caring for their daughter adequately.  So what has happened in the mean time to change his mind?

[sdstepmom]

Your case sounds vey close to my husbands.  They were never married though so she has the mind preset of "my kid syndrome".  She always told my husband that he had no rights as a father and would always change her mind when they would verbally agree on matters.  She got married last year and now things have been very difficult for us.  We got married last year as well - and shortly after that we recieved papers that she had changed my husbands child's last name to her new husbands.  Well, that was the straw that broke the camel's back for us.  We took her to court and gained joint legal custody and made her stick to the visitation guidelines.  We didn't get the name changed though which was very disappointing for us.  It sounds to me like you have very just cause - especially with the whole school situation and all of the proof you have.  I wouldn't hesitate - it will only get worse and she will keep pushing and pushing to see how far she can take ya!

[concerned_stepmom]

The ex is being so controlling. We have had regular visitation for over 3 years and NOW she thinks that the daughter needs only a 2 hour supervised visit every other week? She thinks she can get that because of their relationship that was over 3 years ago because they had physical arguements (nothing to do with the daughter!). My husband loves his daughter so much.  She kept us from seeing his daughter on fathers day. When she said we could not come get her, this broke my husbands heart. Now the daugther that is ONLY 4 years old thinks her daddy doesn't love her and is a monster. The ex is MENTALLY abusing the daughter.  She told us that we will not get to see her again until we go back to court which is the end of next month. We have not seen her now since June 2!! She knows she was wrong for keeping her from us this last weekend and now wants to bargain... she will let us take her on vacation that we have had planned for the last 5 months (that she ok'd and we bought a plane ticket for the daughter) if we don't throw her in jail for contempt!!