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If the child contacts your DH again, he should see if the child wants to be picked up. Just to hang out. He has every right, as child is supposed to be living with him. Let BM know you have child. But be very careful, make sure child really wants to 'visit'. It sounds like she already knows the consequences as far as BM goes.

The next day (Monday) she posted two picture quotes on her board.  The first said something to the effect of "I finally stand up for myself and say what I want and now I'm the mean one."  The second said "If someone really wants to see you then they'll make sure they see you.  No excuses."  We can only guess when she does stuff like this but it sounds like she had a fight with BM and she's been told not to write on her FB about it, so she posts these pictures to be 'in the letter of the law', and it's sounding like BM voted it down just as we said.


I'll let DH know what you suggested, Mom1.  Thanks.

See if she contacts you after she talks to BM but maybe next time, asked her, do you want to come home now? and go get her.

I think at this point SD would say she doesn't want to come home (yet).  She's place a lot of value on being with BM.


Oh, and no, she hasn't contacted us again after asking to come over and see the puppy.  I'm sure BM has voted that down.  SD isn't allowed to see anyone: not her dad, not DB27, not her niece and nephew, not her aunts and uncles.  The only person she's allowed to see in the entire family is DB29.  (I guess BM either sees him as harmless or for some reason believes he's on her side.  But he's not.)


A friend pointed something out to DH and I tonight.  She pointed out that when this started we told BM that we approved of her having an "extended visit" with BM.  Our intention was to allow this extended visit either until things blew up at BM's or until we got the Police Assistance clause in place. 


So no, we haven't actually approved of SD "living with" BM.  DH has only allowed an "extended visit" with BM and hasn't withdrawn his permission yet.

Last night DD13 was at an overnight with a friend.  While she was with the friend she contacted DH through Facebook. She told DH that she wanted to meet the new puppy we got a few weeks ago. DH told her that BM could bring her over or DH could go get her. (BM use to withhold her new pets to force DD to want to visit her. We don't want to act the same way BM does.) DD said she'd 'have to ask mom'. *roll eyes* Mind you, she contacted DH when she was over at her friend's last night because she's not allowed to talk to him from BM's.  She's only supposed to talk to him if BM is with her.  Now does that sound like someone who's there completely of her own free will? DD then asked DH "How's snowrose (me)?" DH looked at me and said he didn't know how to answer that. I mean apparently she's asking 'how is snowrose, now that she has the court paperwork that shows I lied about how we got along together?' Well, what do you expect, DD? When you betray people, whether it's you betraying your father or myself, they don't feel too good. They don't trust you and they're hurt and angry. DH finally answered her, "What do you mean?" and she just moved away from the subject, saying "Never mind." Not sure if I said this before but in the paperwork BM filed we did find out that she's now $10,000 in debt to a bankruptcy trustee.  BM filed bankruptcy about 7 years ago, so that's very interesting.  We think it's from a student loan from BM's BF, as he went to community college for a month and then dropped out.  And since student loans can't be discharged by bankruptcy they're going to be paying on that for 5 years or so, now.[/t][/c][/t]

What was in those areas that were blank?

On SD's affidavit, BM has written that she wants SD's birth certificate, passport and some other paper.  And she wants me to supposedly apologize for telling people that BM was a "convicted felon" when she isn't, except I've never said that to anyone.  I don't play the kind of games BM does.

Now that child is with mom, she has a case to change the order as child is now living with her (and you "allowed" it).

We didn't allow it!  We took the only option that the court gave us: we filed to have a Police Assistance clause added to the custody order as the police will not help you unless you have this clause in the order.  That's the law.

Keep with the school until court, check attendance and grades.

Already doing that.  And when BM tried to have the school changed over to her address DH went in the next day with the custody order and made sure it was never changed.

Get a detailed new order of when/how you get visitation. Child will see that the grass is not greener after living there a while...it is new and fun. Wait until she is asked to do chores/HW and not all the fun weekend stuff. Sounds like daughter needs to see for herself.

Heh.  She been complaining on Facebook about 'cleaning day'.  BM and the BF are supers for some apartments, so at the end of the month they have to go and clean all the vacated apartments, and she had to help them clean.  She's also been complaining that she has no money.  (We use to give her $10 every 2 weeks for walking the dog and emptying/filling the dishwasher 2 times a week, and she told DH a few months ago that she felt like a slave. (A slave? Then just stop doing the chores and we'll stop giving you an allowance.) But now she has no money at all at BM's.)

Also, today I was reading through the informationals from SD's Facebook page. Apparently, BM and the BF let her surf the internet while they were over here serving court papers on us and she was talking with some of her friends, maybe telling them what was happening with BM.

The thing that interests me is that SD was posting while BM was here and then stopped posting 15 minutes later - about the time BM would have gotten home. But one friend answered SD about the time she logged off and the interesting message was "You love heartless people."

That fascinated me. I went onto Facebook to see what that message was in response to but apparently the entire conversation had been deleted. That single message was all that was left, and there were no other messages since October 18th.

So a perceptive friend has told SD that she loves heartless people. I wish I could have known what SD felt and thought when she saw that message.

You know what the ultimate irony is of all this? SD13 is on the regional Anti-Bullying team for the schools, and yet she chooses to live with the two biggest bullies I've ever seen in my entire life.


BTW, there's never been any fun weekend stuff with BM.  BM would only have SD on the weekends she and the BF work, and they would never take SD anywhere.  The only thing they've ever done with her is take her to a movie with community visits and to the mall - but they want her passport. 

Update below.

YSD on the other hand was always a handful. She was 2 at the time of their split and moved in with us at 5. She never really experienced things the same way OSD did. She always wanted to move back in with BM from the first time BM mentioned it. YSD was trained by BM to do things to drive the entire family crazy & if there was ever any trouble, a simple phone call to BM would cause WW3. It wasnt worth it to argue, punish, or do anything.
When she was 12, the news came that DH was not the biological father of YSD. After a few months (at the end of school when BMs parenting time started anyway), he let her go to live with BM. It was extremely hard on him and I dont think he would have made it throught if there wasnt the OSD still living with us.  There was however, after she left such a relief from stress that we ALL noticed & commented on it.

There's a striking parallel here.  DH is also not the bio-dad, though he was there to cut the umbilical cord.  BM told SD he was not the father when SD was 6, when we tried to get custody of her, and BM has built on that and dragged DH down and built up the shade of the bio-dad for years.  As far as BM is concerned, Father's Day should be spent with her BF that abused SD - and since DH and the BF also have the same birth date BM feels SD should be with the BF for that, too.   

If you do get to court, is it possible to request joint counseling?

No, I don't think so.  As you said, SD would not be bound to it.  At 12 she was legally allowed to refuse therapy.

Well, last night we were served with court papers.  BM has filed for custody and support.  She's asked for the entire last order to be thrown out.  I have no idea how far back that would go, all the way back to our original custody order?  She's missed something though and hasn't asked for the support order - which was separate - to be thrown out.

The paperwork we were handed was startling.  It includes 2 notarized documents - both of which have been altered AFTER they were notarized.  Hand-written items were added to both documents, writing right over the slashes in the previously blank areas.

[four whole years]

I'd ask DD how she feels about the abusive BF.  Maybe mom has told her that he won't be there IF she comes to live with her.  If you let her go knowing about the BF, then you've put DD in danger willfully and that may come back to bite DH if something happens to her.  Not just bite him emotionally but legally as well.

We've already had this discussion with DD.  Mom has convinced DD that the abusive BF is harmless. DD wants to believe anything and everything mom says, so since things have been good for the year of 'in the community' visits and then for the honeymoon of visits at mom and the BF's home, now mom is right and the BF is harmless.


Tigger, we kept CPS with us and asked for their help and evaluations for four whole years.  We very carefully ramped up visitation over three years.  We were in the process of moving to normal visits when this happened. 


At this point, if something goes wrong it's ALL on BM's head for brain-washing DD and then stealing her away. There's no fault that can be found on our part.  It's not like you can blame US because the court has the rules, requirements and blind spots that it does when it comes to its definition of "imminent danger". We cannot say the child is in "imminent danger".  We can only say history shows that within the next few months the cycle of problems will probably start again. But BM and DD don't believe that, and obviously we're just trying to cause problems for saying that history has been repeating itself.


As I said, we would very likely win - AGAIN - if we were willing to once again devote another year of our lives to a court battle for custody - and what good would winning do us?  We would wind up right back where we are now with DD walking off to stay at BM's or maybe even DD never coming back from BM's.


You can only protect a child so much - and then when you hit the teen years there comes a time when you cannot protect a child from themselves.  And that's especially true here in Canada, where 12-year-olds have the legal right to make their own medical choices (injections, surgery, therapy, signing themselves out of a hospital) and 14-year-olds can legally choose to sleep wherever they want without a parent's permission.


(Someone really needs to pull back on some of these 'rights and freedoms' for children in Canada. I'm sorry but 12-year-olds really don't have the capacity to decide if a vaccination or surgery is appropriate for their condition.)

[IF]

Sign her out at lunch time. Tell her that you want to take her out and eat and she can text her mother that she is with you. Is she defiant?

She is most definitely defiant.  BM has been coaching her with BM's own brand of 'no rules on me' type of behavior. And since BM does not honor contracts nor pay her bills but instead just moves on to the next place and uses a new version of her name or new utility carrier, BM knows this gig really well.

Then go to a public place and talk (police may show up at your door).

The police will not become involved in a custody problem unless there is a Police Assistance clause, which was why we've been investigating getting one.

See what she really says away from mom, then if she really wants to be there, tell her you will try and make it work but that she would have to change schools after the court date as you will no longer have custody.

DD has said to us at various times in our own home that she wants to live with mom.  That hasn't been possible though as there have been safety issues with the abusive BF.  IF we were willing and ready to go through this entire fight all over again (knowing it would probably take almost a year), we know that we would eventually win custody of SD again.  There's so much CPS information and information on BM being historically unstable that the courts would have to give DD to us in order to protect DD and their own jobs  - but what does it matter when at the next chance DD would just walk off with BM yet again?


When someone is willing to ignore the law (any law) unless threatened with arrest they can pretty much do whatever they want.  And from what we've seen of BM's reactions to various scenarios the only thing that really would put the fear of Court in her would be for her to be arrested.


Of course, if we did have BM arrested then heaven save us from DD's wrath.


Beyond that, DH has been in and out of court every few months for something like the last 5 years!  With the exception of last year when we had one year of quiet.  But DH has been in court so much, with most court days being a full day, that I'm often amazed that his employer hasn't fired him!

Of course, all of this would be different for a middle schooler. They can just walk out the door & jump in a car. Another thing is she probably has a cell phone. Only way to avoid it would to be there each day just before school let out. But then you could have a fight on your hands.

What would happen is that DD would be there with a cell phone, waiting for BM to pick her up.  And things would not go well if there was a confrontation, I'm sure of it.  DH may be the custodial parent (and the school knows that) but BM lives for drama - and she would take this to the hilt, I've no doubt of it.


DH and I are weighing our options, and the damage that's already been caused in his and DD's relationship. We're completely sure that DD would be coached to cause as much mayhem and damage as possible - and after all we've gone through with them year-in and year-out, I know that I'm just about ready to have a nervous breakdown.  Right now I can't handle any kinds of tension, not even an emotional movie or a change in routine.


Because of all we've been through, we are weighing letting DD go to make this mistake - which is one of the reasons I'm wondering what would happen with the 'no changes for a year' requirement.  But as Kitty C said, that probably went out the window when BM took the child.


Still, one thing I've learned around here - OMGosh do the courts move S L O W!

Hi, Ocean.  Mom does not live in the same school area. She has been told that the child may continue to go to school in our area as we live here - BUT since we have custody the school goes by the law and as far as they are concerned my DH has custody.  Mom tried to change the child's address but DH brought a copy of the new order in the next day and the school complied with the order and kept our address.


Mom has told the child that she will drive her to and from school through next June, so she can graduate 8th grade with the rest of her class.  But honestly I don't see that happening, especially when it starts to snow.  Only thing is that at this point mom can't change where the child goes to school, as the schools must respect the custody order filed in court.



We talked to a Family Law attorney at the courthouse. He said to go for the Police Assistance clause. It's very hard to get a fast track here, so we just ended up with the Nov court date.  Emergency hearings seem to be impossible to get, unless the child is actually in imminent danger.


Did you note that the new order says that "no changes may be made to the current order for a minimum of one year"?  When the mother has tried to make changes right away before this, even without that in the order, the courts have made her wait a full 6 months.

I use to be on this forum some years ago when my DH was first going for custody of his DD.  We did get custody and did our best to raise the child, though it was hard at times as she was still seeing her mother and mom's abusive BF. Mom and the BF were watched by CPS for more than 3 years. Mom is diagnosed bipolar but appears to have BPD. When the girl was a toddler mom was in psych wards for a year at a time while my DH raised the infant.  The girl went to a therapist for 3 years and she seemed to be straightening out, until she started spending more time with her mother.


The child is now 13. After the last abuse problem, where mom's BF was throwing plates at the dining room wall, we went through 1 year of visits without the BF, 1 year of visits in the community with the BF, and were just starting to go into regular visitation.  October 5th was to be the girl's first regular weekend visit with her mother - except the girl called on Saturday and told DH that she wanted to live with her mother.


Ironically, we had just signed a new ACCESS agreement with the mother on August 29th. It specifically says it's the Applicant Mother's Access agreement and then states that the girl can visit as she wishes - but that my DH and the mother must agree on the visits.


For some reason mom has it in her head that this agreement SAYS that the girl can live with whoever she wants. And she thinks that (Ontario Canada) law says that the girl can choose where she wants to live at age 13. (Um, no. It only says that at 13 the child can give her opinion to the court via affidavit.)


But mom is convinced the girl can choose and the 13 year old is insistent on believing her mother.


Unless we call the police for Parental Abduction, we cannot get the child back on our own. We are currently waiting to see the court to request a Police Assistance clause be added to the custody order.  (You have to have a Police Assistance clause in the custody order or the police will not get involved in a custody problem.) Court date is November 28th.  (Why do we always get stuck with court on US Thanksgiving? I'm American and would like to have my Thanksgiving.)


DH was able to see the child for a few minutes with mom watching from a distance. At that point all he could do was ask her "Why?" She wouldn't answer but he says she had this nasty smirk on her face - until he started crying.  This devastated him as we'd put so much heart into raising this girl after she was abused.


At first the girl asked about visitation with us but now that DH has refused to hand over her birth certificate (mom wants to use it to get gov't money - but mom doesn't have custody so that wouldn't work) now mom is telling her not to talk to DH.  So DH hasn't seen her in more than a month and can't even talk to her. She doesn't even answer his Facebook messages.


Honestly, the mother is a serious problem: she's a game player who has basically no morals. She feels she is above the rules and the law - as long as she can get away with it.


We're at a loss.  If we go through with the Police Assistance clause we know we'll have an angry teenager on our hands that will still be going to visit her mother constantly, and mother will continue with the parental alienation that DH has been a victim of for so long and encouraging the girl to ignore our rules here at home.

We're now beginning to lean toward letting the child go to make her mistakes, because there's no way we can create a happy home when there's a mother with mental health issues constantly back-biting and attacking us.

Oh, point of information: the new Access Order says that the terms of the agreement cannot be changed for a minimum of one year.  We had to do that as before this mom was agreeing to orders and then applying to change them before the ink was even dry - which is exactly what happened this time too, except she just took the child instead of trying to re-write the agreement.

The Access Order is part of the Custody Order, with just the access terms changed.  The custody portion says there is joint custody but that our home is the child's primary residence and that my DH has "full care and control of the child." 

So, I guess my question is: if we should decide not to take action with trying to get the child back, what happens with this Custody/Access Order?  Would the courts allow the mother to change the order before that year is up?

I know the mother thinks what she's done is above the custody order and the law right now but she's going to find that she can't get that gov't money for the child that she thinks she can - not unless she has a custody order that says she's the one that has custody of the child.

Hope this all makes sense.  It's a mess.