Has anyone gone to court pro se?

[jamison]

If so, how difficult is it? Would anyone recommend doing this for a visitation or custody modification?

[lucky]

We did it several times.  Some went our way, some didn't.  

While it worked for us, it was simply because we had no choice, we could NOT afford an attorney.  I wouldn't recommend pro se if you can avoid it.  On the flip side, make sure you get a good attorney if you go that route.  Don't throw good money away, make it count.

[em]Lucky

Lead your life so you wouldn't be ashamed to sell the family parrot to the town gossip.
- Will Rogers[em]

[jamison]

Well, the first time, I could not afford an attorney, a default judgement was ordered. BM received sole custody, and supervised visitation for me. The second time, I had an attorney (in aid of litigants rights)...and now the order is being transferred to a new state to decide. It was all denied without prejudice; but still no regular visitation. Old state is asking the new state to do an investigation?? What happens when that order is registered in the new state?
I have alot of trouble seeing my daughter. The only time I can see her is when BM says I can. She'll tell me I can see her at or near their home (but it's 800 miles away). Then I did that however many times, then BM gives me letters saying I can fly her to my house for summers; but it hasn't happened yet.   I've asked her to change it through the courts but she refuses  (I even said I'd pay for that). It seems to me that she likes to be in control.  
She said " There's no need for all of that.  You have to learn to trust me."  Meanwhile I have a worthless order that says supervised visitation and that we have to agree on the visits.  If we could have agreed....we would not have been divorced!   She just dangles me along.  "You can see her...no you can't...you can see her...no you can't"  Over and over again. I don't know what to do.  I am so tired of it all.  

[Anthony_ill]

Yes.  The orginal Divoce I had an attourney. Even though there were mutilpe issues regarding marital issues (her affairs ect) we agreed to a no-fault divorce with 50/50 visitation (my first mistake).   After about 6 months, my ex decided to interfere with the vistation and kept the kids from being with me. Police indicated nothing they could do (too tramatic on kids to pull them out of their house) and we went to court. After 10 more months, started having "new" visitation schedule (still 50/50), but lots of lost time, and lots of money gone as well, with no consequences to the ex spouse.

Six months later she did the same thing again, so I began to represent myself in court (had all of the older motions, GAL, Mediation  numbers ect.  Not very smart but at this time it was the only thing I could do.

I did counsel with numerous attourney's that gave me much advice but little hope since the kids are older and even if we won (minus 40K) we still did not have any garrentee that the kids would come back.

Being Pro Se is not very smart, but then again I do not believe it has changed anything in my case. .Each case is different. My current Judge is not very father friendly, my ex is a psychatric nightmare, and the court systems hates pro se since they are not being funded to their "family of lawyers and judges". THe idea of family court seems to be one of wearing down (fathers) and not intrested in the best intrest of the children. They look for Compromises and not the real issues. Since I am pro se it appears that settlements that are usally arranged out of court have been not approached to me, but then I am alittle more stubborn at this point (and allot more educated than the first time I made agreements) and her attourney has not' been paid so he just wants out of the case but can't.

If you go pro se, have a good support system in place (family, church groups ect), and find ways to take emotion out of your position when dealing with this as pro se. You need to be able to release your feelings but realize that attourneys usally take on one side of the stress while you can release it and be the father/parent.

I have spent many nights waking up feeling very hopeless, but I do believe I am doing what God has intended me to do, and they way it needs to be done (with loving kindness, and without anger but still pushing back).

In my case, I am looking for  the long term relationship with my kids and allowing the short term be lost for now (very much a PAS situtation) since the current family law does not include laws to protect fathers (or mothers) regarding mentially abusive ex-spouses.

Look to see if you can obtain legal assitance thru your local courthouse as well. Legal aid is sometimes available.

Good luck,
Anthony

[msme]

I went Pro Se this past May but it was civil court & that is another ball of wax. However, I made sure that I had made lots of notes & had typed out a list of well thought out questions for each witness. I had to travel to Philadelphia & went up against a Philadelphia attorney & a group of corperate attorneys, also from Philadelphia.

After I blew them out of the water, the corperate attorneys shook my hand & said they were impressed with my presentation & they were ordering a transcript to use as a training tool for first year attorneys.

Preparation is one of the most important things. Also ask questions that will make the opposition squirm or lose control. I had my step-brother screaming on the stand. It was really hard to not respond to his outbursts but to remain calm & keep repeating the questions until he answered them satisfactorily.

At one point I actually got to ask the judge to tell him to stop yelling & answer the question. It was great. If you are prepared, composed & calm & give off an aire of confidence, the judge will have to treat you accordingly.

You also have to read the judge. I decided to skip some of my questions after they objected to one & the judge ruled in their favor. I felt the others that were related to that point weren't necessary since the judge made it clear that we weren't going in that direction.

Overall, it was scarey & exciting at the same time. One thing for sure, If this old lady can do it, anyone can.
You never get a second chance to make a first impression!

[MYSONSDAD]

A friend in Florida just finished going pro se, came out with more then he asked for. He and his mother are combining their efforts and willing to help and give suggestions on how they handled a very touch case and a very touch opposing counsel.

Please e-mail me privately and I will put you in touch with them.
 
"Children learn what they live"

[gipsy]

I have represented My self pro se In cases that are not family law ,And done 'probably as well as any atty could ,
  I have had two family court issues that were involving a lot of money and Rights to my son .
   
    But first let me give a bit of history , And tell some of My story . Then I will conclude ;
   In useing atty's I fired the first two , And then got the atty that was a fathers rights advocate , and made it so simple that after the BS of the first two atty's, the good atty made it so simple so fast that I actually had doubts , Because the system is actually not that complicated ,
   What  I think is very important is this, You need to know what is important to the court in legal terms and what is not ,
 And what is important is actually in the law books , And My good atty showed me the laws , 'When I got close to trial , Of course if you read the Laws that pertain they are not really that complicated ,
  My problem would be to know what My argument is ,
   The problem with atty's has been. Even with what I call My good atty is : they are busy , And it is evident to me that its difficult for them to have the facts of your life straight , My case was encumbered by the typical Psychiatric Nightmare ,
  And the mother having the typical jerk overzealous atty ,
   So I had to use an atty .
 But, My second  atty was such an "Ad hock" slick talking representation that the court ruled the other way , It was abvious to Me that Failed atty number two did not just stay too the facts ,
   Actually My first atty did ok and looking back I could have stayed with Him , But I did not
   Here's the problem with the debate , That I see , And if you are going pro se . I implore you to do this as My very good atty told me to do , Call the court , And I had to take the day off and go to the court and watch a family law divorce trial , And I watched a custody trial ,
   I was NEVER Impressed at all By any super intelectual  Debate By any atty of iether side , What I was Not impressed By ,was the atty that went against The good atty that I hired , The oposing atty went on and on about abuse allegation's And My atty did a decent job of cross examination That caused the judge to not believe the allegations , Wich were some fairly simple and obviuos questions one could ask to dispell a story , Related to the practicality of the allegations and time frames involved , And let Me tell you . My good atty reall did zero legal maneuver's or any thing really tricky , SO AGAIN I SAY IF you are attempting to go pro se than contact the court and go watch a couple of trials ,  All that happened to me was the court asked if I was a party to the case or a witness , "I said no" ,  And they asked my name and assume they checked the record to see if I was on the witness list , And let Me tell ya it was all pretty boring , But what I learned is this Including in My trial , Was NO ONE !! ever said or did any thing so intellectually profound that I felt that I could not do it my self , But I used the good atty because He gave me all the great info  And Invited me to watch him in a trial , And too me that say's a lot about an atty'S confidence In how he handles himself at a trial , GO WATCH A TRIAL : And or find out where you start , IN Pierce county , When An issue starts over children You start with a commissioner NOT a judge , And then get a Judge for a REAL hearing in Like one year ,
  But before the trial you get a TEMPORAY ORDER .
    SO My real input  to you is the first step you need to do is talk to a bunch of atty's And you will ask questions That are posted some where In this site About ATTY selection . This site has a lot of info in it, and to me mostly pertains , However  Some of the questions I would ask and want Positively answered If I were to go through this again would be
  , ? Can I see you In trial ?  How do you feel about trial as apposed to settleing , ? The answer should be like  what My atty told me that is so simple , My atty said " First read the parenting plan where it addresses Dispute Resolution , Does it say what to do before trial "? And yes Mine does say
 To go to Pierce County center For dispute resolution ,
   Onother question from a good attty Should be " is there a parenting plan In place "? And if there is is this an Issue of contempt because the mother is not havieng the children there and ready for the visits "
   Or is it a modification of the parenting plan because there is a significant change ?
   SOOO Then ask the atty If He She represents Non custodial parents more or Custodial Parents more
  My atty is a mens rights atty . And He clearly answered , " I mostly represent Non custodial Men "
  So My story can go on and on , But My atty also explaind that this really isn't a complicated issue . Famil;y law isn't that complicated . Its just a matter of knowing what you need to do about the Issue and what Your argument is , " Read My other posts , I explain a bunch , And this is My expierience And all cases are slightly different , But its basically this , You need to know what to do . What you do isn't complicated , You need to know , Are you fileing contempt because Mom Isn't going By the court order already in place ? Or do you just need to take the first step and apply for mediation for a Modification of the parenting plan because of change of circumstance ,
 And when you talk to atty's A good one will cut to the facts and probably not listen to a bunch of he said she said , And get to the legal issue , And what your attempted remedy is , My good Atty told me to apply for mediation , And at the  time he would set a court date , And if I settled the issue at mediation we cancel the court date ,
   I am trying to give you the simplicity of what a good atty does , A bad atty wants to just go Bla Bla Pay me . A good atty will get to the point and say what to do , SO I say unless you get an atty that answeres atty selection questions confidently ' And no One can really predict the out come because no one knows what the other side will do , A good atty will, tell you to attempt mediation first , Rather foregoe court costs when you may come to some agreement , My good atty puts it very simply , If she is not going by the court ordr its contempt , And If You guys can't solve it through mediation then you need to go to the judge or commissioner , And the commissioner will decide , And you neeed to know if you are likely to get the situation to be any better by asking the judge , My opinion is , Usually visitation issues are eventuall straightend out by the court aftyer a few tries at contempt , But there's not alway's an instant fix to these problems ,
   Here's whatMy atty say's about pro se litigants " People can do well because they know there lives better than any atty possibly could "
   However as a pro se litigant , And even as My experience with an atty , Is this the court just wants the fact , And not a bunch of Bs , I reperesented My self  In a small family issue knowing this , And the commissioner thanked me for staying to the facts and not going on and on , And in the end My psycho ex went on and on and the commissioner finally told her " I don't believe you " In one of My other recent posts in Like GENERAL or Fathers , I write the story as to what the people in court said , And it wasn't much , You should read it , It has been My experience that all the BAd mouth and Bla , Is what the court doesn't like they just want the facts , Mine was simple . I told the commissioner I want to see My son , And thats really all I said , And I learned a very important lesson . STAY WITH THE FACTS !! And deny her allegations or they tend to believe it !
  Also Before you Actually hire an atty , Try contacting the court and see what the court facilitater say;s , then Call the Bar association And ask for atty's that help pro se litigants , And call the court again and sak if they have a night where atty help pro se litigants , All this happens here in Pierce county washing , But have a pen and paper in hand and get the facts times dates and procedures corect , I filed My divorce pro se , And By being nice and asking commissioner services , They helped me alot , BE NICE TO EVERY ONE and you will get help , And don;t bother to bad mouth any one figure out what your case is and stick to the facts , If its a Modification . A contempt or Mediation , I think your facts are probably simple once you find out , Heres what My first atty did , And I recomend . Write a simple letter and say why you think theres a problem , Wait a day and re read it and edit it to what the facts are , then give it to every atty you talk to . My first atty basically said " the court won't give a change of custody for the reason . The mother is a big liar and a drama queen , And it all played out to be I got a parenting plan and a child support order . With a lot of grief in the middle . Including fireing Him and another atty ,then getting an atty that was similar to atty Number one , And atty number one told me the facts , Basically , and that was I will get a parenting plan and a child support order , SO again and again I say find out what your facts are and how to accomplish this . and what your argument is and watch a trial , Interview a bunch of attys , And talk to the entities I suggest , then decide what to do , DON"T Just go do something because you feel compelled , And Maybe you issue is very simple and the only way you are going to know is By investigation , To Me the quickest way is to talk to several atty's . You may just wind up fileing contempt pro se  A few times untill Mom realises she has to cooperate with the existing plan , You probably want to avoid a big court process if you can mediate ,file contempt or just modify . A custody battle is a large undertaking and can get expensive with the wrong atty , If you get an atty that is going to depose people , Send depositions , And investigate he should be clear about why and how this can better you case ,
  These are My opinions and my experience . I have been through the whole game . My experience is likely to be different from others . But I say, try to listen to people who have completed the courts process , I see it differently on the other side than I did when I was in it < In the end I am BASICALLY satisfied