What can happen without an attorney

[edortizr6]

I'm posting this for those that are going through similar situations and hope that it helps in some way. I live in Florida where the courts are a bit less father friendly, or at least it seems that way. I split with my ex in 2004 when my son had just turned 3. We were going through some tough times as most couples do when raising children. She has a daughter from her previous marriage with the father still actively involved in the daughter's life. For this, I gave him lots of respect.

Before she got pregnant, it seemed like we didn't fight about anything. We always agreed or compromised with all decisions until a few months after we found out that she was pregnant. That's when everything started to go down hill. She started to complain about everything, and her word was always final. I just did what a lot of men do.....yea, ok, that's fine. I hardly ever got my way, but it kept us from fighting over everything.

So to fast forward the story, we were sitting down in the living room one night, and she says to me, "We need to figure something out because we can't keep living like this". She suggested that we separate and try to work things out. I told her that that wasn't what I wanted to do, but if that's what she wants to do then fine. I packed my stuff the next day and moved out.

For the first few months I asked her if she needed anything, is everything ok, etc. She just seemed to cut me out of the family completely. She didn't want to talk to me or even look at me, as if I had done something really terrible to her. She started to act this way just a week after I moved out. Suddenly, if it concerned her I didn't need to know.

About a 2 months after we split, I mentioned child support and how much she was expecting from me. $25 a week was her number and I gave it to her. For the next few months that's what I gave her, $25 a week. I also bought him clothes, took him to the doctor, got his hair cut and bought him toys. At that time I had my son approximately 60% of the time. When she began to ask for more money (as I wasn't giving her any, so she said) I started giving her $50 week. Back then, I was staying at my sister's house until I could afford my own place. In order to afford an apartment, pay my bills, buy my son the necessities and give her money, I traded my SUV for a smaller car and lower payments. I was fine with all this until I picked up my son from daycare and he didn't have his glasses on. I only had him for the next 2 days, so I let it slide and didn't ask her about the glasses. The next time I picked him up (2 days later) he still didn't have his glasses on, so I asked her about his glasses. She said that he had broken them playing at daycare and she was going to buy him new ones the next week because she didn't have the money. The same thing happened with his medicine a few weeks later. What really burned me up was that she didn't tell me anything. That's when I stopped giving her money.

I finally got a 2 bedroom apartment and everything seemed to be going pretty good for me aside from the headaches coming from the ex. After a year went by, her lawyer served me with the mediation papers. Being that I had him most of the time, the mediator said that I should not have been giving her any money. In fact, she should have been giving me money. Of course, to maintain the time I spent with my son and to not make matter worse, I declined and she agreed to leave the visitation schedule alone. The next day I asked her what her intentions where with the money she was supposed to have given me and her reply was that it was none of my business what she does with her money. I simply wanted to open a bank account with it for my son and match whatever she put in. Obviously, she didn't let me explain that to her and things got ugly. She took visitation time away from me that day and her lawyer served me with papers a week later to appear in court for visitation/child support. Between the time of receiving the papers and going to court I made numerous attempts to come to an agreement with her as far as child support and visitation is concerned, but she never had time to talk about it. She had time to travel, do her hair, go to happy hour and hang out with her friends but she never had time to discuss the situation with me.

I did lots of research and talked to lawyers and got quotes and consulting about the case, but I didn't hire a lawyer because that would have meant me losing the apartment. This was a huge mistake. I was nowhere near prepared to represent myself in court. All the research and preparation could not have helped me for my first time representing myself. After it was all said and done, I got minimal visitation, maximum child support, I have to pay half of her lawyer fees, arrears, and half of my sons medical bills that I had no idea existed. I have since then lost my apartment, my credit is shot and I'm struggling to make ends meet. I'm actually thinking about getting a night job to make more money, but than when would I see my son? Meanwhile, she still travels out of state, she redecorated her entire house and she drives a new SUV just like the one I had.

[Cookiemomma4]

And  this is supposed to help the rest of us how?  We learn from one another here...I am sure you know this.   So, what could you have done differently short of hiring a lawyer (because frankly, there are some of us here who can't afford a lawyer and are doing pretty darn well on our own).  What would you have done the same?  What do you think your lawyer could have done differnetly for you?

[edortizr6]

Well, I think the lawyer would have represented me a hell of a lot better than myself, for one. The judge seemed to brush off everything I said and I'm guessing it's because I was unprepared and unfamiliar with the procedures. All the research that I did flew right out the window when I was standing in front of the judge. It seems like the judge felt I was disrespecting the whole system by trying to do what a lawyer's supposed to do.

I never said my post will help anyone. I simply said that I hope it CAN help someone in any way. I know there are those that are doing well on there own, there are also others that are not such as myself.

I just think the judge would have listened to the lawyer a bit more than myself.

[Dez]

Ed,

You think you have it bad going pro se...you should try it in WA state! The family court judges here drool on the file when they read a pro se case.

They also get this demonic gleam in their eyes when they are totally giving you the shaft.

And if you pay the big lawyer fees to try and get a fair shake in family court...you're just that much more in the hole when the judge signs the orders to wreak havoc your life!

Were you not served with all the facts and what they would ask for? And what sort of answers did you file? What did you actually file with the clerk?

[edortizr6]

Hay Dez,

I think I have it bad while others have it much worse than me, I'm sure. I was given the proper information, just not with enough time to prepare/respond. Her attorney made sure that I recieved all documents as late as possible. I'm not sure if there is time frame that the attorney has to maintain as far as documents are concerned, but I do know there is a time frame for the response. I always seemed to have 7-10 days. This is when I was working 10-12 hour days.

[notnew]

First off, you are not giving any details, so nobody can tell you what you may have done wrong and what avenues you might have to pursue to correct things or make any changes.

Second: You say you did lots of research and did the things a lawyer is supposed to do, but I feel that you probably did not follow procedures as well as you think you did. The court expects a pro-se litigant to be pretty well versed in basic procedures. They do give a little wiggle room when both parties are pro-se, however when one party has an attorney, the court MUST have the same expectation level for both parties, so as a pro-se litigant against an attorney, you better have your ducks in a row. The court CANNOT give you extra time to act just becuase you didn't know or were working long hours. There are procedures for requesting extensions, etc. If the court cuts you a break because you are a layperson, they are setting up a valid reason for the other side to appeal should you prevail and worse, having their decision overturned (which judges and courts don't like).

7-10 days is plenty of time to prepare an answer. You have to realize that all filings need to be short and concise and your answers should be even shorter. For example: If the other side files against you alleging you have failed to pay child support for 3 months and asks to have you incarcerated. You have been paying your child support and you have all of your canceled checks, signed by your ex proving it. Your answer should not contain copies of all of your canceled checks (time consuming). Your answer simply needs to state that you deny the allegations in paragraph X, that you have been making timely payments, and ask for the motion to be dismissed and in the alternative denied, or similar wording. The time to show what cards you have to play is in the court room. I have learned from experience that the filings are not what really counts, (although they must contain the facts, and a few exhibits to show you have a valid case, and be filed properly), the real meat of the case comes when you are in the court. Battling in filings is frowned upon by the court and after a certain point, the court really isn't looking at the filings in your case seriously anymore becuase there is too much information to assimilate.

The bad thing about going pro-se and learning as you go is almost all of us have ended up not knowing the ropes well enough in the beginning and ended up agreeing to stipulations that we shouldn't have. It is hard to change things after they are put in place and we have to prove very specific conditions in order to modify those agreements.

Her attorney making sure you received the documents as late as possible is her attorney doing their job. Why give the other side an advantadge? As long as you remain within the speicified boundaries, no matter how close to breaking them, you have acted within the requirements. I believe you are thinking like a parent who loves their kid and who is angry at the other side. You have to think like a lawyer and learn to see how the court sees things and what they will expect. You have to take on a business like attitude to this situation. That does not mean getting emotionally detached with your child, that means learning to separate the two. Your relationship with your child has nothing to do with the court case or what's happening with the other side.

I think you could stand to gain a lot of knowledge from this site. But, I think you need to stop laying blame on others for the state of things and start taking responsibility for things (no matter that you didn't realize moving out and other things you went along with were killing your case before it ever started), the fact is that you did these things and now you know better so you have to arm yourself with this knowledge to keep from making the same type of reactionary mistakes from this point forward. You cannot get lost in what the other side has done in the past with your relationship, etc., It is time to focus on actions in the recent past in regards to the child.

So, with all that said. I have a few questions:

1. What kind of custody order is in place?
2. What kind of visitation order is in place?
3. What kinds of research did you do and where did you get your information?
4. Are you employed?
5. Do you have a place to live?
6. How much emotional/family support do you have close by?
7. What is the other side doing that you feel is damaging your child or thwarting your relationship with the child?

This is not legal advice, just an opinion.

You have to learn from what is happening. Review her attorney's filings for formatting issues, things that have to be included in each filing. For example: If I file 4 motions for contempt within a few weeks of each other, I have to include a copy of the original divorce order with each one. Silly because the court has received it over and over again, but a necessary requirement.  If you don't follow proper procedure, you are shooting yourself in the foot.