Question...maybe just a vent...

[FatherTime]

How many married parents just drop the kids off at daycare and pick them up for dinner and bedtime? (no need to answer) Our society has changed, and old fashioned ideas are antiquated.  It takes two incomes for many households to make ends meet now days.  Many children are being sidelined.  For many children the real primary care giver (not care taker) is a day care provider.  The children have adapted (sadly).

I wouldn't have every other week 50/50 with this age group, but 50/50 is what both parents seem to want for the children.  There are other 50/50 schedules that would fit this age group.  In this type of situation both care Givers love the children immensely.  No parents sidelined either.

I picked up a gender bias vibe in your response.  Your male too.

" I would also document every single time that he yells at you. "

Your suggestions appear to antagonize the situation, rather than harmonizing, or improving the situation.

Just my half cent worth of blather.

[Jade]

>How many married parents just drop the kids off at daycare
>and pick them up for dinner and bedtime? (no need to answer)
>Our society has changed, and old fashioned ideas are
>antiquated.  It takes two incomes for many households to make
>ends meet now days.  Many children are being sidelined.  For
>many children the real primary care giver (not care taker) is
>a day care provider.  The children have adapted (sadly).

It's been a year since I had to put my now 5 & 7 year old in daycare (the 5 year old) and before and after care (the 7 year old).  They are not having an easy time being away from me all day.  My 5 year old is having a hard time with the EOW.  I have been their primary caregiver since the day they were born.  I know that it is a hard concept to grasp that small children are more comfortable with the primary caregiver, even if they are in daycare.  But that doesn't change the fact that they are.  I have worked with children long enough to know that.


>
>I wouldn't have every other week 50/50 with this age group,
>but 50/50 is what both parents seem to want for the children.
>There are other 50/50 schedules that would fit this age group.
> In this type of situation both care Givers love the children
>immensely.  No parents sidelined either.
>
>I picked up a gender bias vibe in your response.  Your male
>too.
>

First, it's what the father wants, the mother clearly stated that she has reservations.  And the children, from what the original poster stated, are having a hard time with it.  And given their ages, I am not surprised at all.

A gender bias?  I don't think so.  I believe very firmly that it is the primary caregiver who should get primary custody of small children.  Even if the primary caregiver is the father.  And have stated that clearly on other message boards in this forum.  In fact, I even told a father who is the primary caregiver to fight for primary custody of his daughter.  

Are you saying that I am a male?  If so, you may want to reread my screenname.



>" I would also document every single time that he yells at
>you. "
>
>Your suggestions appear to antagonize the situation, rather
>than harmonizing, or improving the situation.
>
>Just my half cent worth of blather.
>
>

Yelling is a form of intimidation and abuse and won't stop unless there are consequences.  Yelling is not good for the children.  My son, when he was under 2, ran away in fear from his father when he got home from work because my ex yelled so much at him.  I tried telling him that it wasn't good to yell like that.  It took our son running in fear from him to get the message across.  Unfortunately, the message didn't stick.  

If he is yelling, she needs to document it.  Period.  Because if he does it all of the time, the judge just may order him into anger management classes.  And THAT will do more to harmonize and improve the situation than the stbx's yelling does.  

[FatherTime]

     I know that it is a hard concept to grasp that small
    children are more comfortable with the primary caregiver, even
    if they are in daycare.  But that doesn't change the fact that
    they are.  I have worked with children long enough to know
    that.

Comfortable. Comfy. Cozy. not equal...shhh

-----------------------------------
>First, it's what the father wants, the mother clearly stated
>that she has reservations.  And the children, from what the
>original poster stated, are having a hard time with it.  And
>given their ages, I am not surprised at all.
>
>A gender bias?  I don't think so.  I believe very firmly that
>it is the primary caregiver who should get primary custody of
>small children.  Even if the primary caregiver is the father.
>And have stated that clearly on other message boards in this
>forum.  In fact, I even told a father who is the primary
>caregiver to fight for primary custody of his daughter.  

OK.

---------------------------------------------
>Are you saying that I am a male?  If so, you may want to
>reread my screenname.

I clicked on your name for information about you.  It definitely says gender -- male. I know it's a feminine name, but it's a username and can be in honor of someone, not necessarily someone's personal name.


>Yelling is a form of intimidation and abuse and won't stop
>unless there are consequences.  Yelling is not good for the
>children.  

Has anyone seen a judge or commissioner yell in court?  Anyone? Anyone? (judge judy?...others are aplenty.)

Yelling CAN be a form of intimidation and abuse. Yelling is not necessarily a form of intimidation and abuse.  Documenting every time someone yells is crazy and somewhat petty.  It's the subject matter and tone that are to be documented.  Sometimes when someone yells, no matter how hard they try, it seems nobody is listening, especially children.


>If he is yelling, she needs to document it.  Period.  Because
>if he does it all of the time, the judge just may order him
>into anger management classes.  And THAT will do more to
>harmonize and improve the situation than the stbx's yelling
>does.  

I know.... document....document....document.

It's

FatherTime

[Jade]

>     I know that it is a hard concept to grasp that small
>    children are more comfortable with the primary caregiver,
>even
>    if they are in daycare.  But that doesn't change the fact
>that
>    they are.  I have worked with children long enough to
>know
>    that.
>
>Comfortable. Comfy. Cozy. not equal...shhh

Whoever said parenting is equal?  Even when a couple is married, it isn't equal.  When I was married, I was a stay at home mom.  My ex worked.  I spent more time parenting than he did when we were together.  Even now, with my working full-time, I still spend more time parenting than he does.  

I understand that you are more interested in forcing shared physical custody on small children even if it isn't in their best interests, that doesn't change the fact that it isn't in their best interests.  Fortunately for my children, their father and I recognize that it wasn't about what was best for us but what was best for them.


>
>-----------------------------------
>>First, it's what the father wants, the mother clearly stated
>>that she has reservations.  And the children, from what the
>>original poster stated, are having a hard time with it.  And
>>given their ages, I am not surprised at all.
>>
>>A gender bias?  I don't think so.  I believe very firmly
>that
>>it is the primary caregiver who should get primary custody
>of
>>small children.  Even if the primary caregiver is the father.
>
>>And have stated that clearly on other message boards in this
>>forum.  In fact, I even told a father who is the primary
>>caregiver to fight for primary custody of his daughter.  
>
>OK.
>
>---------------------------------------------
>>Are you saying that I am a male?  If so, you may want to
>>reread my screenname.
>
>I clicked on your name for information about you.  It
>definitely says gender -- male. I know it's a feminine
>name, but it's a username and can be in honor of someone, not
>necessarily someone's personal name.
>

I have no idea why it says male.  I did not fill out anything to do with gender.  The last time I checked, I am not male.  And even if I were male, doesn't mean that I have to believe that shared physical custody for small children is in their best interests.

>
>>Yelling is a form of intimidation and abuse and won't stop
>>unless there are consequences.  Yelling is not good for the
>>children.  
>
>Has anyone seen a judge or commissioner yell in court?
>Anyone? Anyone? (judge judy?...others are aplenty.)

Try it in an actual courtroom and see how far you get.  My ex almost got thrown out of the courthouse because of his yelling.

>
>Yelling CAN be a form of intimidation and abuse. Yelling is
>not necessarily a form of intimidation and abuse.  Documenting
>every time someone yells is crazy and somewhat petty.  It's
>the subject matter and tone that are to be documented.
>Sometimes when someone yells, no matter how hard they try, it
>seems nobody is listening, especially children.
>


>
>>If he is yelling, she needs to document it.  Period.
>Because
>>if he does it all of the time, the judge just may order him
>>into anger management classes.  And THAT will do more to
>>harmonize and improve the situation than the stbx's yelling
>>does.  
>
>I know.... document....document....document.
>
>It's
>
>FatherTime
>
>

[FatherTime]

>Whoever said parenting is equal?  Even when a couple is
>married, it isn't equal.  ...

 Whoever said that parenting isn't equal or shouldn't be equal?  In your case it wasn't equal, and that worked out great for you, but is it best for all?  

I believe that sharing custody equally will not only improve a child's well being, it will also teach our children that sexism and gender discrimination are not an integral part of our society.  In my state and county (and many others), the children are learning that one parent is more important that the other.  You don't think that the children see the discrimination in their own classrooms, other students with mommy centered households.  What message do you think is sent to the children?  They do see the inequality in time, in fact, they live it.  Limited time with Dads, courtroom approved.

>I understand that you are more interested in forcing shared
>physical custody on small children even if it isn't in their
>best interests, that doesn't change the fact that it isn't in
>their best interests.  
 
Forcing one parent to every other weekend and essentially cutting out one parent, even if it isn't in their best interests is your stance then?  
Equality need only apply when it fits your needs?  btw... children are resilient, they can live with shared parenting.  Nice statement to make it appear that I want to "force" anything onto a small child.  It almost makes me sound like a child batterer or abusive of small children.  Effective in custody court too.  You don't actually say it, but implied.

>Try it in an actual courtroom and see how far you get.  My ex
>almost got thrown out of the courthouse because of his
>yelling.
>

I did yell in a courtroom.  I yelled "fraud", and you are correct it got me nowhere.  They still turn a blind eye.  

But here is the question that I presented.

Is a judge or commissioner abusive and intimidating when he/she yells in a courtroom?  Does that judge or commissioner need anger management?  What should be the consequences if a judge / commissioner yells in court?

Here are some links on the "Tender Years Doctrine" :

http://www.answers.com/topic/tender-years-doctrine

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3757/is_200412/ai_n9471546

Here's one with your view...
http://www.grad.berkeley.edu/deans/mason/bookscutody.shtml

I think that this quote from the last link sums up your stance:

  "The tender years doctrine was never a mothers' right; it was a child-centered rule. It forced the courts to move away from treating children as a property right of their fathers to focusing on the child's need for nurture. "
------
Nurture is most likely a keyword for mother, since most people see the mother figure as more nurturing.  

Which parent is more nurturing, the parent with every other weekend, or the parent with the vast majority of the parenting time?

Most of the time, I'm pretty sure that it's not,

FatherTime

[Jade]

>>Whoever said parenting is equal?  Even when a couple is
>>married, it isn't equal.  ...
>
> Whoever said that parenting isn't equal or shouldn't be
>equal?  In your case it wasn't equal, and that worked out
>great for you, but is it best for all?  
>
>I believe that sharing custody equally will not only
>improve a child's well being, it will also teach our children
>that sexism and gender discrimination are not an integral part
>of our society.  In my state and county (and many others), the
>children are learning that one parent is more important that
>the other.  You don't think that the children see the
>discrimination in their own classrooms, other students with
>mommy centered households.  What message do you think is sent
>to the children?  They do see the inequality in time, in fact,
>they live it.  Limited time with Dads, courtroom approved.
>
>


My experience with small children doesn't back up what you are saying.  



>>I understand that you are more interested in forcing shared
>>physical custody on small children even if it isn't in their
>>best interests, that doesn't change the fact that it isn't
>in
>>their best interests.  
>
>Forcing one parent to every other weekend and essentially
>cutting out one parent, even if it isn't in their best
>interests is your stance then?  
>Equality need only apply when it fits your needs?  btw...
>children are resilient, they can live with shared parenting.
>Nice statement to make it appear that I want to "force"
>anything onto a small child.  It almost makes me sound like a
>child batterer or abusive of small children.  Effective in
>custody court too.  You don't actually say it, but implied.
>
>


Forcing a child who isn't ready to be away from the primary caregiver 50% of the time is detrimental to the small child's well-being.  As the child gets older and more mature, the parenting time can be revisited.  

BTW, I didn't imply anything.  If you read anything into what I wrote other than what I wrote, that is on you.  And maybe you should think really hard why you would read something other than what was written.  

Oh, and the statement that children are resilient and can live with shared parenting really should be changed to:

SOME older children are resilient and can live with shared parenting.  SOME older children can't.   My ex and I know OUR children well enough to know that shared physical parenting would NOT work for them.  

Small children need more stability than 50/50 shared physical custody provides.  

Children are individuals, much like adults are.  



>>Try it in an actual courtroom and see how far you get.  My
>ex
>>almost got thrown out of the courthouse because of his
>>yelling.
>>
>
>I did yell in a courtroom.  I yelled "fraud", and you are
>correct it got me nowhere.  They still turn a blind eye.  
>

Maybe in your case.  The grounds for my divorce are extreme cruelty.  All my ex did was prove my grounds.


>But here is the question that I presented.
>
>Is a judge or commissioner abusive and intimidating when
>he/she yells in a courtroom?  Does that judge or commissioner
>need anger management?  What should be the consequences if a
>judge / commissioner yells in court?
>
Personally, if the judge were to have done that during my court case, I would file a complaint about him/her afterwards.  That is unprofessional and unacceptable behavior from anyone.


>Here are some links on the "Tender Years Doctrine" :
>
>http://www.answers.com/topic/tender-years-doctrine
>
>http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3757/is_200412/ai_n9471546
>
>Here's one with your view...
>http://www.grad.berkeley.edu/deans/mason/bookscutody.shtml
>
>I think that this quote from the last link sums up your
>stance:
>
>  "The tender years doctrine was never a mothers' right; it
>was a child-centered rule. It forced the courts to move away
>from treating children as a property right of their fathers to
>focusing on the child's need for nurture. "
>------
>Nurture is most likely a keyword for mother, since most people
>see the mother figure as more nurturing.  

I don't recall saying that a father can't be nurturing.  What I do recall saying is that 50/50 physical custody for small children isn't good for them.  I also recall saying that the primary caregiver should be the one who has primary physical custody of small children.  I don't care if the primary caregiver was the father or the mother.  It's about providing as much stability and as little change as possible in small children who have had their world turned upside down due to their parents divorcing.

>
>Which parent is more nurturing, the parent with every other
>weekend, or the parent with the vast majority of the parenting
>time?
>
>Most of the time, I'm pretty sure that it's not,
>
The parent that is more nurturing depends on the parent's personality.  I happen to be the one who is more nurturing.  Doesn't make my ex a bad father.  And the parent who is more nurturing may not necessarily be the primary parent.  But then, that isn't why 50/50 shared physical custody in small children is not good for them.  

>FatherTime

[FatherTime]

>>>Whoever said parenting is equal?  Even when a couple is
>>>married, it isn't equal.  ...

Me:

>> Whoever said that parenting isn't equal or shouldn't be
>>equal?  In your case it wasn't equal, and that worked out
>>great for you, but is it best for all?  
>>
>>I believe that sharing custody equally will not only
>>improve a child's well being, it will also teach our
>children
>>that sexism and gender discrimination are not an integral
>part
>>of our society.  In my state and county (and many others),
>the
>>children are learning that one parent is more important that
>>the other.  You don't think that the children see the
>>discrimination in their own classrooms, other students with
>>mommy centered households.  What message do you think is
>sent
>>to the children?  They do see the inequality in time, in
>fact,
>>they live it.  Limited time with Dads, courtroom approved.

You:
>My experience with small children doesn't back up what you are
>saying.  

Therefore, it must be wrong.


>Forcing a child who isn't ready to be away from the primary
>caregiver 50% of the time is detrimental to the small child's
>well-being.  As the child gets older and more mature, the
>parenting time can be revisited.  
>
>BTW, I didn't imply anything.  If you read anything into what
>I wrote other than what I wrote, that is on you.  And maybe
>you should think really hard why you would read something
>other than what was written.  
>

Forcing a child who is ready for both parents to be away from the SECONDARY parent is not detrimental to the SMALL child's well-being?

 If it is detrimental to the SMALL child's well-being, then it's accepted by the courts.

It's not what I read as much as how I was beginning to be portrayed.  You say "FORCING A YOUNG CHILD"  and I only want to ALLOW a child to be an active participant in both of his/her parents' lives EQUALLY.


>Oh, and the statement that children are resilient and can live
>with shared parenting really should be changed to:
>
>SOME older children are resilient and can live with shared
>parenting.  SOME older children can't.   My ex and I know OUR
>children well enough to know that shared physical parenting
>would NOT work for them.  
>
>Small children need more stability than 50/50 shared physical
>custody provides.  
>
>Children are individuals, much like adults are.  

I'm confused here.  So, my statement that children are resilient and that they can live with shared parenting is wrong?  I did not say ALL children, children in general.  Why is SOME "OLDER" children a better statement?  Because, it is YOUR point of view?  Of course, in family law there are various extenuating circumstances.  Some children have special needs.  

  What if some people perceive that 50/50 parenting provides children MORE STABILITY, at any age?  The odds could be perceived as twice as strong, twice the support, twice the care.  Twice the love.  

Scenario:  A young child has a strong Custodial parent and step-parent, as well as a sidelined non-custodial parent.  This young child, who evidently isn't very resilient, is unfortunately left without the Custodial parent because of an unfortunate death.  There is another young child who has two (2) loving and caring parents who equally share and participate in his/her life.  But again, unfortunately, one of these parents passes away.  

Which child would most likely be more stable after the loss of their corresponding biological parent?


You stated that: "Children are individuals, much like adults are."
  I didn't realize that.  Adults are resilient.  


>>But here is the question that I presented.
>>
>>Is a judge or commissioner abusive and intimidating when
>>he/she yells in a courtroom?  Does that judge or
>commissioner
>>need anger management?  What should be the consequences if a
>>judge / commissioner yells in court?


>Personally, if the judge were to have done that during my
>court case, I would file a complaint about him/her afterwards.
> That is unprofessional and unacceptable behavior from anyone.

http://www.judgejudy.com/home/home.asp

sigh...

[Jade]

>>>>Whoever said parenting is equal?  Even when a couple is
>>>>married, it isn't equal.  ...
>
>Me:
>
>>> Whoever said that parenting isn't equal or shouldn't be
>>>equal?  In your case it wasn't equal, and that worked out
>>>great for you, but is it best for all?  
>>>
>>>I believe that sharing custody equally will not only
>>>improve a child's well being, it will also teach our
>>children
>>>that sexism and gender discrimination are not an integral
>>part
>>>of our society.  In my state and county (and many others),
>>the
>>>children are learning that one parent is more important
>that
>>>the other.  You don't think that the children see the
>>>discrimination in their own classrooms, other students with
>>>mommy centered households.  What message do you think is
>>sent
>>>to the children?  They do see the inequality in time, in
>>fact,
>>>they live it.  Limited time with Dads, courtroom approved.
>
>You:
>>My experience with small children doesn't back up what you
>are
>>saying.  
>
>Therefore, it must be wrong.

Why?  Because it doesn't back up what you claim?  
>
>
>>Forcing a child who isn't ready to be away from the primary
>>caregiver 50% of the time is detrimental to the small
>child's
>>well-being.  As the child gets older and more mature, the
>>parenting time can be revisited.  
>>
>>BTW, I didn't imply anything.  If you read anything into
>what
>>I wrote other than what I wrote, that is on you.  And maybe
>>you should think really hard why you would read something
>>other than what was written.  
>>
>
>Forcing a child who is ready for both parents to be away
>from the SECONDARY parent is not detrimental to the SMALL
>child's well-being?
>
> If it is detrimental to the SMALL child's well-being, then
>it's accepted by the courts.
>
>It's not what I read as much as how I was beginning to be
>portrayed.  You say "FORCING A YOUNG CHILD"  and I only want
>to ALLOW a child to be an active participant in both of
>his/her parents' lives EQUALLY.
>
>
>>Oh, and the statement that children are resilient and can
>live
>>with shared parenting really should be changed to:
>>
>>SOME older children are resilient and can live with shared
>>parenting.  SOME older children can't.   My ex and I know
>OUR
>>children well enough to know that shared physical parenting
>>would NOT work for them.  
>>
>>Small children need more stability than 50/50 shared
>physical
>>custody provides.  
>>
>>Children are individuals, much like adults are.  
>
>I'm confused here.  So, my statement that children are
>resilient and that they can live with shared parenting is
>wrong?  I did not say ALL children, children in general.  Why
>is SOME "OLDER" children a better statement?  Because, it is
>YOUR point of view?  Of course, in family law there are
>various extenuating circumstances.  Some children have special
>needs.  
>
>  What if some people perceive that 50/50 parenting provides
>children MORE STABILITY, at any age?  The odds could be
>perceived as twice as strong, twice the support, twice the
>care.  Twice the love.  
>
>Scenario:  A young child has a strong Custodial parent
>and step-parent, as well as a sidelined non-custodial parent.
>This young child, who evidently isn't very resilient, is
>unfortunately left without the Custodial parent because of an
>unfortunate death.  There is another young child who has two
>(2) loving and caring parents who equally share and
>participate in his/her life.  But again, unfortunately, one of
>these parents passes away.  
>
>Which child would most likely be more stable after the loss
>of their corresponding biological parent?
>
>
>You stated that: "Children are individuals, much like adults
>are."
>  I didn't realize that.  Adults are resilient.  
>
>
>>>But here is the question that I presented.
>>>
>>>Is a judge or commissioner abusive and intimidating when
>>>he/she yells in a courtroom?  Does that judge or
>>commissioner
>>>need anger management?  What should be the consequences if
>a
>>>judge / commissioner yells in court?
>
>
>>Personally, if the judge were to have done that during my
>>court case, I would file a complaint about him/her
>afterwards.
>> That is unprofessional and unacceptable behavior from
>anyone.
>
>http://www.judgejudy.com/home/home.asp
>
>sigh...


I have to agree with your subject.  This is clearly a waste of time.  You aren't going to change my mind and I am not going to change yours.  

[FatherTime]

:-)