Day or Weekend?

[justme73]

we reside in florida and our divorce was finalized in may, 2002.

I know all of this may seem petty when speaking of day or weekend in regards to Father's Day/Mother's Day, but my ex has flipped and flopped on the interpretation of our paper and for two years now has taken both weekends (father's day and mother's day)because of the discrepancy.

The first year following the divorce, i requested that we agree to the full weekend for father's day/mother's day. the other parent refused... stating that the 'day' is all that i would get. I did not want to create more problems, so i went along with it for 2002 and 2003. In 2004, the other parent inquired about that holiday, asking what my plans were.

I explained that we had plans to visit my grandmother on mother's day and that we would be visiting my father for the day before father's day as we have every year. even though i thought we understood each other, the other parent not only took the mother's day weekend.. giving me just the day, but then proceeded to keep our children the entire father's day weekend... i believe this was intentional.

i felt that if he made the call the first year that the agreement meant the 'day' only and we went by that for two years, a precedence had been set.

We are in Florida and the only areas that mention Father's Day are as stated:
"F. Summer visitation. The parties shall continue their two week rotation of shared time during the summer. The provisions provided for regarding Father's day, each child's birthday and July 4th shall have priority. Not withstanding, during the summer, each parent shall be entitled to reasonable extended out of town vacation time, uninterrupted by sharing each child with the other parent."

that paragraph refers to a father's day 'provision' that is not previously mentioned. the only other paragraph mentioning father's day is:

"G. Each party shall give the other parent at least 24 hours advance notice (or if an emergency occurs, as quickly as possible), if he or she will be unable to exercise his or her rotation or a portion therof, Father's/Mother's Day, or birthday visitation. As to holidays, one week advance notice....."

I have also checked Fourth Judicial Circuit guidelines, and it only states 'Father's/Mother's DAY'.  This matter is coming up again, because we have an out of town event that goes into father's day weekend, but does not interfere with father's DAY. I have requested this time as vacation time. this is an event of which i do not control the dates and cannot reschedule.

plus, the other parent is boasting over the fact that our son's birthday has killed my mother's day weekend for two years now, since it always falls on the same weekend and this year ON mother's day.

1. how do you feel our civil agreement reads?

2. would i be in contempt for taking our vacation time as requested, 4 months in advance, even if the children still get to spend father's day with him?

3. could the other parent's tactics be construed as contempt, in that we had set a routine for mother's/father's day weekend and he forcefully changed that agreement, withholding what would have been my visitation?

4. again, i know this may appear petty, but I ALWAYS give advanced notice of any special dates/plans and regularly and routinely get run over by the other parent with regards to visiation schedule, of which i have filed for contempt. do i let it go again?

thank you in advance for your time and advice.

[socrateaser]

>we reside in florida and our divorce was finalized in may,
>2002.
>
>I know all of this may seem petty when speaking of day or
>weekend in regards to Father's Day/Mother's Day, but my ex has
>flipped and flopped on the interpretation of our paper and for
>two years now has taken both weekends (father's day and
>mother's day)because of the discrepancy.
>
>The first year following the divorce, i requested that we
>agree to the full weekend for father's day/mother's day. the
>other parent refused... stating that the 'day' is all that i
>would get. I did not want to create more problems, so i went
>along with it for 2002 and 2003. In 2004, the other parent
>inquired about that holiday, asking what my plans were.
>
>I explained that we had plans to visit my grandmother on
>mother's day and that we would be visiting my father for the
>day before father's day as we have every year. even though i
>thought we understood each other, the other parent not only
>took the mother's day weekend.. giving me just the day, but
>then proceeded to keep our children the entire father's day
>weekend... i believe this was intentional.
>
>i felt that if he made the call the first year that the
>agreement meant the 'day' only and we went by that for two
>years, a precedence had been set.
>
>We are in Florida and the only areas that mention Father's Day
>are as stated:
>"F. Summer visitation. The parties shall continue their two
>week rotation of shared time during the summer. The provisions
>provided for regarding Father's day, each child's birthday and
>July 4th shall have priority. Not withstanding, during the
>summer, each parent shall be entitled to reasonable extended
>out of town vacation time, uninterrupted by sharing each child
>with the other parent."
>
>that paragraph refers to a father's day 'provision' that is
>not previously mentioned. the only other paragraph mentioning
>father's day is:
>
>"G. Each party shall give the other parent at least 24 hours
>advance notice (or if an emergency occurs, as quickly as
>possible), if he or she will be unable to exercise his or her
>rotation or a portion therof, Father's/Mother's Day, or
>birthday visitation. As to holidays, one week advance
>notice....."
>
>I have also checked Fourth Judicial Circuit guidelines, and it
>only states 'Father's/Mother's DAY'.  This matter is coming up
>again, because we have an out of town event that goes into
>father's day weekend, but does not interfere with father's
>DAY. I have requested this time as vacation time. this is an
>event of which i do not control the dates and cannot
>reschedule.
>
>plus, the other parent is boasting over the fact that our
>son's birthday has killed my mother's day weekend for two
>years now, since it always falls on the same weekend and this
>year ON mother's day.
>
>1. how do you feel our civil agreement reads?

If there's no father's day provision, then a reference to it in another section is ambiguous, and needs clarification from the court. So, at this point, I'd say that absent a specific provision, that whatever orders actually are specified, are the only orders that actually exist, and everything else is void.

>
>2. would i be in contempt for taking our vacation time as
>requested, 4 months in advance, even if the children still get
>to spend father's day with him?

It's not clear from your post that father's day is applicable. You need to get the court to clarify this, unless you can reach agreement for a  stipulated order with the other parent.

>
>3. could the other parent's tactics be construed as contempt,
>in that we had set a routine for mother's/father's day weekend
>and he forcefully changed that agreement, withholding what
>would have been my visitation?

No. Contempt is willful and conscious disregard of a court order. What you set is irrelevant. It's what the court sets that matters.

>
>4. again, i know this may appear petty, but I ALWAYS give
>advanced notice of any special dates/plans and regularly and
>routinely get run over by the other parent with regards to
>visiation schedule, of which i have filed for contempt. do i
>let it go again?

No, you move for a clarification order and then offer to settle the matter with a stipulated order.

You need to stop trying to work things out on the fly, because the two of you cannot cooperate with each other (not placing blame, just stating fact).

File a motion to clarify, and get everything nailed down so there is no room for any future disagreements.

Otherwise, you will fight the same battles over and over.

[justme73]

another section of our final judgment states:

"E. The parties have been working cooperatively to share or alternate non-major holidays. They shall continue to do so. If they cannot decide, they shall abide by the Fourth Judicial Circuit guidelines below."

however, it seems that the Fourth Judicial Circuit guidelines were not entered into our agreement properly. in fact, it appears that our agreement has many discrepencies.

1. does that paragraph at least order us to refer to the Fourth Judicial guidelines... even if they aren't accurately stated 'below', within the order?


>If there's no father's day provision, then a reference to it
>in another section is ambiguous, and needs clarification from
>the court. So, at this point, I'd say that absent a specific
>provision, that whatever orders actually are specified, are
>the only orders that actually exist, and everything else is
>void.

2. so, technically.... because there is no CLEAR provision, the other parent could even potentially get away with withholding mother's day all together and not be held in contempt, because a provision had not been set for it in our final judgment?


>No, you move for a clarification order and then offer to
>settle the matter with a stipulated order.
>
>You need to stop trying to work things out on the fly, because
>the two of you cannot cooperate with each other (not placing
>blame, just stating fact).
>
>File a motion to clarify, and get everything nailed down so
>there is no room for any future disagreements.
>
>Otherwise, you will fight the same battles over and over.

you are absolutely right and very wise. filing a motion to clarify is probably irrelevant right now... we are now in the middle of modification of custody and a new custody evaluation. i know now how our new order should be written and will make sure there are no items left unclear.

and i believe we are both to blame for creating this mess for our children to live with.

thank you

[socrateaser]

>1. does that paragraph at least order us to refer to the
>Fourth Judicial guidelines... even if they aren't accurately
>stated 'below', within the order?

Even this is a judgment call. Many orders contain text such as "No future change in law shall effect the terms and conditions of this judgment." The purpose is to fix the law as stationary with the order. But, without such text, then only the judge can decide what to do, if the judicial guidelines change over time -- and, I'll bet that those guidelines have changed since your orders were originated.

Point is, that nothing short of a new set of orders will clear up the ambiguities. I just can't give you a valid interpretation without the court's involvment.

>2. so, technically.... because there is no CLEAR provision,
>the other parent could even potentially get away with
>withholding mother's day all together and not be held in
>contempt, because a provision had not been set for it in our
>final judgment?

Yes.

[justme73]

we reside in florida and our divorce was finalized in may, 2002.

I know all of this may seem petty when speaking of day or weekend in regards to Father's Day/Mother's Day, but my ex has flipped and flopped on the interpretation of our paper and for two years now has taken both weekends (father's day and mother's day)because of the discrepancy.

The first year following the divorce, i requested that we agree to the full weekend for father's day/mother's day. the other parent refused... stating that the 'day' is all that i would get. I did not want to create more problems, so i went along with it for 2002 and 2003. In 2004, the other parent inquired about that holiday, asking what my plans were.

I explained that we had plans to visit my grandmother on mother's day and that we would be visiting my father for the day before father's day as we have every year. even though i thought we understood each other, the other parent not only took the mother's day weekend.. giving me just the day, but then proceeded to keep our children the entire father's day weekend... i believe this was intentional.

i felt that if he made the call the first year that the agreement meant the 'day' only and we went by that for two years, a precedence had been set.

We are in Florida and the only areas that mention Father's Day are as stated:
"F. Summer visitation. The parties shall continue their two week rotation of shared time during the summer. The provisions provided for regarding Father's day, each child's birthday and July 4th shall have priority. Not withstanding, during the summer, each parent shall be entitled to reasonable extended out of town vacation time, uninterrupted by sharing each child with the other parent."

that paragraph refers to a father's day 'provision' that is not previously mentioned. the only other paragraph mentioning father's day is:

"G. Each party shall give the other parent at least 24 hours advance notice (or if an emergency occurs, as quickly as possible), if he or she will be unable to exercise his or her rotation or a portion therof, Father's/Mother's Day, or birthday visitation. As to holidays, one week advance notice....."

I have also checked Fourth Judicial Circuit guidelines, and it only states 'Father's/Mother's DAY'.  This matter is coming up again, because we have an out of town event that goes into father's day weekend, but does not interfere with father's DAY. I have requested this time as vacation time. this is an event of which i do not control the dates and cannot reschedule.

plus, the other parent is boasting over the fact that our son's birthday has killed my mother's day weekend for two years now, since it always falls on the same weekend and this year ON mother's day.

1. how do you feel our civil agreement reads?

2. would i be in contempt for taking our vacation time as requested, 4 months in advance, even if the children still get to spend father's day with him?

3. could the other parent's tactics be construed as contempt, in that we had set a routine for mother's/father's day weekend and he forcefully changed that agreement, withholding what would have been my visitation?

4. again, i know this may appear petty, but I ALWAYS give advanced notice of any special dates/plans and regularly and routinely get run over by the other parent with regards to visiation schedule, of which i have filed for contempt. do i let it go again?

thank you in advance for your time and advice.

[socrateaser]

>we reside in florida and our divorce was finalized in may,
>2002.
>
>I know all of this may seem petty when speaking of day or
>weekend in regards to Father's Day/Mother's Day, but my ex has
>flipped and flopped on the interpretation of our paper and for
>two years now has taken both weekends (father's day and
>mother's day)because of the discrepancy.
>
>The first year following the divorce, i requested that we
>agree to the full weekend for father's day/mother's day. the
>other parent refused... stating that the 'day' is all that i
>would get. I did not want to create more problems, so i went
>along with it for 2002 and 2003. In 2004, the other parent
>inquired about that holiday, asking what my plans were.
>
>I explained that we had plans to visit my grandmother on
>mother's day and that we would be visiting my father for the
>day before father's day as we have every year. even though i
>thought we understood each other, the other parent not only
>took the mother's day weekend.. giving me just the day, but
>then proceeded to keep our children the entire father's day
>weekend... i believe this was intentional.
>
>i felt that if he made the call the first year that the
>agreement meant the 'day' only and we went by that for two
>years, a precedence had been set.
>
>We are in Florida and the only areas that mention Father's Day
>are as stated:
>"F. Summer visitation. The parties shall continue their two
>week rotation of shared time during the summer. The provisions
>provided for regarding Father's day, each child's birthday and
>July 4th shall have priority. Not withstanding, during the
>summer, each parent shall be entitled to reasonable extended
>out of town vacation time, uninterrupted by sharing each child
>with the other parent."
>
>that paragraph refers to a father's day 'provision' that is
>not previously mentioned. the only other paragraph mentioning
>father's day is:
>
>"G. Each party shall give the other parent at least 24 hours
>advance notice (or if an emergency occurs, as quickly as
>possible), if he or she will be unable to exercise his or her
>rotation or a portion therof, Father's/Mother's Day, or
>birthday visitation. As to holidays, one week advance
>notice....."
>
>I have also checked Fourth Judicial Circuit guidelines, and it
>only states 'Father's/Mother's DAY'.  This matter is coming up
>again, because we have an out of town event that goes into
>father's day weekend, but does not interfere with father's
>DAY. I have requested this time as vacation time. this is an
>event of which i do not control the dates and cannot
>reschedule.
>
>plus, the other parent is boasting over the fact that our
>son's birthday has killed my mother's day weekend for two
>years now, since it always falls on the same weekend and this
>year ON mother's day.
>
>1. how do you feel our civil agreement reads?

If there's no father's day provision, then a reference to it in another section is ambiguous, and needs clarification from the court. So, at this point, I'd say that absent a specific provision, that whatever orders actually are specified, are the only orders that actually exist, and everything else is void.

>
>2. would i be in contempt for taking our vacation time as
>requested, 4 months in advance, even if the children still get
>to spend father's day with him?

It's not clear from your post that father's day is applicable. You need to get the court to clarify this, unless you can reach agreement for a  stipulated order with the other parent.

>
>3. could the other parent's tactics be construed as contempt,
>in that we had set a routine for mother's/father's day weekend
>and he forcefully changed that agreement, withholding what
>would have been my visitation?

No. Contempt is willful and conscious disregard of a court order. What you set is irrelevant. It's what the court sets that matters.

>
>4. again, i know this may appear petty, but I ALWAYS give
>advanced notice of any special dates/plans and regularly and
>routinely get run over by the other parent with regards to
>visiation schedule, of which i have filed for contempt. do i
>let it go again?

No, you move for a clarification order and then offer to settle the matter with a stipulated order.

You need to stop trying to work things out on the fly, because the two of you cannot cooperate with each other (not placing blame, just stating fact).

File a motion to clarify, and get everything nailed down so there is no room for any future disagreements.

Otherwise, you will fight the same battles over and over.

[justme73]

another section of our final judgment states:

"E. The parties have been working cooperatively to share or alternate non-major holidays. They shall continue to do so. If they cannot decide, they shall abide by the Fourth Judicial Circuit guidelines below."

however, it seems that the Fourth Judicial Circuit guidelines were not entered into our agreement properly. in fact, it appears that our agreement has many discrepencies.

1. does that paragraph at least order us to refer to the Fourth Judicial guidelines... even if they aren't accurately stated 'below', within the order?


>If there's no father's day provision, then a reference to it
>in another section is ambiguous, and needs clarification from
>the court. So, at this point, I'd say that absent a specific
>provision, that whatever orders actually are specified, are
>the only orders that actually exist, and everything else is
>void.

2. so, technically.... because there is no CLEAR provision, the other parent could even potentially get away with withholding mother's day all together and not be held in contempt, because a provision had not been set for it in our final judgment?


>No, you move for a clarification order and then offer to
>settle the matter with a stipulated order.
>
>You need to stop trying to work things out on the fly, because
>the two of you cannot cooperate with each other (not placing
>blame, just stating fact).
>
>File a motion to clarify, and get everything nailed down so
>there is no room for any future disagreements.
>
>Otherwise, you will fight the same battles over and over.

you are absolutely right and very wise. filing a motion to clarify is probably irrelevant right now... we are now in the middle of modification of custody and a new custody evaluation. i know now how our new order should be written and will make sure there are no items left unclear.

and i believe we are both to blame for creating this mess for our children to live with.

thank you

[socrateaser]

>1. does that paragraph at least order us to refer to the
>Fourth Judicial guidelines... even if they aren't accurately
>stated 'below', within the order?

Even this is a judgment call. Many orders contain text such as "No future change in law shall effect the terms and conditions of this judgment." The purpose is to fix the law as stationary with the order. But, without such text, then only the judge can decide what to do, if the judicial guidelines change over time -- and, I'll bet that those guidelines have changed since your orders were originated.

Point is, that nothing short of a new set of orders will clear up the ambiguities. I just can't give you a valid interpretation without the court's involvment.

>2. so, technically.... because there is no CLEAR provision,
>the other parent could even potentially get away with
>withholding mother's day all together and not be held in
>contempt, because a provision had not been set for it in our
>final judgment?

Yes.