Would You turn them in?

[norm9838]

I really appreciate all the advice that everyone is giving. The sf has a problem with me because of issues from his past I guess. The last time I was trying to talk to my ex on the phone about visitation he blew up in the background so I asked to talk to him. One of the things that he told me was that his exwife use to get phone calls and that she had cheated on him and that was how he ended up in this state. I told him I was sorry that it happened but to understand that I had absolutely no desire to rekindle a relationship with my ex, his wife. I am getting married in the spring of next year and my fiancee and I have been together for 2 1/2 yrs. My fiancee is very supportive when it comes to my daughter but constantly tells me that I am being taken advantage of. She also told me that I should not and do not have to talk to him to visit with my daughter. She raised her own kids on her own after her divorce from their father. She told me that they always stuck to their visitation schedule and yes it was hard to miss out on holidays and such but that they had less problems since both of them knew exactly when, where and how. Plus she said her kids knew what their schedules were going to be. She did tell me though that her ex moved 6 states away and that when her children became teens that they did not want to go to their fathers for 6 weeks in the summer because of their friends and that the court did not make them. Her ex and her both realized that they were becoming adults and that they needed some space so they would only spend about two weeks with her ex. I just though and it seemed as if everything was working pretty well. My daughter was with me 6 out of 14 days and even nights because her mother did not want to drive to get her and my fiancee worked in the same town they lived in, so she would drop my daughter off before school. Well the place my fiancee works at downsized and now she will not be driving there. On Tuesdays I use to pick my daughter up and spend from after school until 7 with her, either going to the park, shopping or getting a bite to eat and then I would drop her off and drive home. I did this because her mother refused to drive the 35 minutes to my home. Now after 6 years I am tired of doing all of the driving and I am tired of my daughter viewing me as a dollar bill. Fathers who are with there children do not shop (every Tuesday) with them or go to the park (every Tuesday) or go out to eat (every Tuesday), this is something only a noncustodial parent would do. When I was growing up and my parents were divorced we went to my dads and we did what most kids would have. The thing is I know my daughter, she is 12 now and I know that if she pushes enough her mother will listen to her. Last winter she was ready and wanting to move in with me because she was tired of all of the crap that goes on at her mothers. Plus she was tired of the lies. Then mom went out and bought her a 300.00 chocolate lab and all of the sudden things were fine. Well I guess that tells you in some ways how shallow my daughter can be when she wants. You know its hard to admit sometimes that your kids are growing up to not be nice people but sometimes you just have to admit it. The last straw was when she was with us after the 4th. She was mean and spiteful to her only friend that is moving to Utah after she said she wanted her here (only if she could completely control her friend and that was not happening). Plus she knew the whole time that she was going to leave early to go back to her mothers regardless of the situation. When I did see her she gave me a nasty look as if to say ha, I got the best of you. Well ha no she got the best of herself. I am not and will not play her games or her mothers and sd. My support has always automatically went to them as I had it set up that way. She told my fiancee and her friend that her mom buys her 200.00 worth of clothes each year not me. Well I hope that is enough last year we spent 500.00 on school clothes for her alone and her mom gets 80.00 per week support. I provide all medical, all dental (which is not even listed in our papers) and all transportation. Well I told my fiancee no more. Now its mom turn, She is suppose to pay the first 588.00 of medical, its her turn to pay dental and she will either drive or I guess there will be no visitation and she will hear from my attorney. Its about time dad grew some backbone where my daughter and her mother is concerned and quit trying to be so easy because as you have said their a lot of the time is no such thing as nice. As to the school thing, yes I am going to report her. I am tired of the lies. As far as paying for her tuition I would fight it in court for if it was up to me I would not do such a thing. Rules and rights are to be respected and I think if I keep quiet and my daughter knows I know then I am just as guilty as her mother.

[gipsy]

Its not been my expierience as a Dad that You can really turn the mother in , And the court will really care ,
  Of course check with several atty's in your area , But my two cent's is .
  If You have a parenting plan that addresses this issue , As In , Mine say's ,she has to give notice of any move outside the school district Than She is in contempt , And You may have a contempt hearing , And the court probably may not want to hear it ,
  From what you are saying as far as the parenting plan , I do not deviate at all , And there is no problem with that , Her boy friend tried to get into my face , Same Old Crap , And I remained calm and told him to grow up , Then I AGAIN , As I have had too before, brought the video camera , And smiled said HI Johny BOy , And picked up my son , Be nice and use the video camera And Don't deviate . When she wants to deviate tell her have the child there at the right time and place as the parenting plan say's and hang up the phone , If she doesn't show up file contempt . And the court usually doesn't care but the court will eventually care on the third or fourth contempt hearing ,
   The best thing I do is not talk to her at all , And fax info to her atty so he can charge her to forward it , 'Upon my Atty's advice '
  And My atty said if it seems to be something I can't handle ask Him And then if further trouble persists than I will have to pay him to handle it ,
 However not talking to her and going by the parenting plan is the best , She gets absolutely zero drama from me that way, and has no way to make up any drama !! I do not call her and show up every time at the right place and time , I have called when she is not there and just said , " Maybe you forgot but I am here and My son is not , I hope you call me soon !
    I have had her in court MANY times , And I had to deal with her no show , And when I said , See Ya at the contempt hearing , She said " I know You will" And her Atty sent a letter proposeing the make up time ,
  You have to Make it clear through legal issue's that no show's are a contempt issue , And when the Issue was all done Nothing happened But she said " That Costed Me $1,200 In atty fee's . I just as usuall picked up my son and drove away , She has to learn . I won't just talk, I will file with the court , And now She does absoluteley nothing wrong And I have not missed a visit for over two years ,
  So As I had to do, Keep talking to atty's and you will get one that is cool and will help out . And isn't always trying to make a buck . like My atty tells me simple ways to handle thing to try to work it out in the pre court stage . And I have handled a number of things and it came out Ok , A good atty can help before it becomes a court case , Interview a bunch of atty's till you find one that just seems cool , And like he wants to help . Don't hire a big blow hard that tells you how much it will all cost get one that will tell you how to try to handle things before you need him , As A matter of fact , When you talk to atty's ask for what you could do that may work before hireing him , If they all say , Nothing it has to go to court than , that's likely to be the answer , But if they say something that is meant to solve the problem with out making into a fight , Or Decelerates ,Than Thats a good atty . TRUST me I paid BIG $$$ For the blowhard , And fired him , And got a cool atty' Also another good atty question is" can you fill Out a contempt for the issue and You can go to the court and what your argument is at court ", If the atty can't tell you what the legal argument is , Then Don't hire him . You have to realise the court handles the LEGAL Issues , You have to deal with the Boyfriend or what ever. And again when I put a video camera in His face he acted like a real grown up !! And I was sooo nice and cordial , They get the game plan , That is to show Him acting like an ass while you are soo nice , And they will Behave accordingly , Video camera's are such a good tool for bringing out good behaviour ,
Don't get into the drama , My atty makes it simple , He say's
" IS there a court order stateing that this was Your time ? And if She didn't show it's a contempt hearing " And don't let any atty trick You up , My atty drew up the contempt papers for My cousin pro se , In like ten Minutes , The contempt papers are a computer paper that they just type in the info , Then their is a declaration in support of the contempt , And You have to have the court stamp it ,You have to have her served , And file the declaration of Legal service with the court , Then show up and keep You Legal argument simple, You won't be likely to get a contempt . But she has to take the time to respond or hire an atty , And My atty say's Most likely she will call an atty , And the atty will ask her why she doesn't just go By the parenting plan and tell her it's like 1,200 for a contempt , And if you do it pro se its about $150 . If you have a friend serve her and fill out the Declaration of legal service too Bone head at such and such address , As Far as My cousin , Many of us Offered to have the pleasure of serving his psycho ex , And there was only one lucky person that got to see her when she recieved service , I wanted to at least have a chance to draw straws , But the end result was nothing , My cousin said the commission told them to workit out and if there was any further problems come back and he will have to solve it , except that I video tape the pick up of His child And When they got nasty I put up the video camera , And they all became good adults again , I look at this as sort of fun now .


If you don't have a court order parenting plan none of this even matters , You have to have a court order to enforce ,
   My best tool so Far is be nice let them screw up and ambush unexpectadly . It just seems like more fun to wonder what she will be thinking when she gets the unexpected legal service  And has to go see her atty !!

[gipsy]

I think you should read you parenting plan in its entirety , Mine say's before court action the parties first have to attempt Mediation  at Pierce county center for dispute resolution , And it sounds like a significant change has occurred . And their needs to be a modification in the plan , So in My case , I file with Pierce county center for dispute resolution ,
  Call your court and ask if any one may know who does dispute resolution , And of course You need to settle the issue of pick up times and places ,
  At any rate , I sent the papers and Dispute resolution sent the papers back with the box checked off that say's Mrs Dip Failed to respond , In the mean time My atty set a court date , And she was legally notified , What this does is say's I propose  resolution or court is next month ,
  And Mrs dip didn't respond so I Had My atty ask to settle the dispute through the court , And the court Gave me a little more time ,
   As My good atty said , We hope she iether goes to dispute resolution and you settle it , Or she doesn;t respond , If she doesn't respond then we show that to the commissioner and the commissioner will know she doesn;t want to cooperate , And it May make the commissioner think a little less Of Mrs dip , And it played out some what in My favor ,
  Again Your previuos order concerns pick up at a place where she no longer lives , And now needs Modification , I would discuss this with your atty , Your atty May be right , My cousins daughter is 12 YO Also , And I hear similar crap . And he figured out that Yes the child is Both Being played By the sick mother , And of course Favoring the parent that spoils her the most , He also has figured he wouldn't get custody ,
   Unless his daughter sent Him a letter stateing why she wanted to move in with Him , And it has to be a good reason , And not that dad lets Her  stay up late and eat ice cream , But more like , Because She could go to the same school she has been , And if your daughter will hold up to that without saying you told her to say it , My cousin is going through a very similar thing , At a same age , BUT Again If a contempt is in order , Read my other post to you ,
   My cousin filed contempt and the mother Is still Hinging on trying crap But she has been bending a little more , And hasn't Actually done any thing , except say stupid things ,
  Try not to get all worked up and read the parenting plan and see if it has a section on dispute resolution , And also ask your atty if a parenting plan modification is in order , Or a contempt , I'm reasonably sure your atty of record is Just that , And you can still talk to several other atty's , The court house was very helpfull to my cousin , But they were not to me because I have an atty , So they don't give advice when you have an atty , So you may just do some talking and exploration without saying you have an atty , It doesn't mean you have to really do anytjhing , I encourage you to get some one to help pro se if you have a contempt issue , thats fairly simple and again My cousin did it , Because I bugged him till he did and it has helped a lot .
   Again My best efforts are to not really talk to her and set these things clear in a court order and if she is not there . Use the courts process every time . I took My psycho to court many times , It became funny as her responsive declarations started to say these were legal maneuvers etc to cause her financial heartache , And of course I stuck with the facts . I will never forget this lesson at court
   Goes like this
      Her atty: "" Blah Blah And lenghty Blah bla
    Commissioner : Looks sleepy and bored ' ' Looks at my atty " What does dad want ,
    My atty Looks at me " What do you want in short "
   Me: I want to see My son on regular visits
    Commissioner : Smiles at me : And looks at her atty
   Her atty : Bla and more blah And some more lenghty Blah
  Commissioner : Looks Bored again " When does dad want to see his son .
    ME:  I said  I wanted way more visits than I would get ,
   Commissioner : Well I won't give you that Much But why do you want Tuesday's and thursday's
   Me : So I can have My son for an interactive parenting class
   ; Commissioner Ok You can have it but not every weekend :
  Her atty : Blah Mom won't like it
  Commissioner ; Stamps the order and say's good by
   So the moral of the story , The commissioner didn't even want to here the BLAH part She just wanted to know when and where I was to pick up my son and she signed , So
  If you go back to court ask for more than you will get, and give a good reason , Like a girl scout meeting etc , And the funny thing is  My parenting class did not work out , But guess what , Ity really pissed the psycho off because I still had a court order that said I get him Tuesday and thursday's .
   So Moral of the story Keep it simple , the court already know's you don't like each other , Know your legal argument , And file .
 If you don;t have an atty that can tell you if you have a legitimate argument ask around . Do ya really think any of us invent any thing new ? As a matter of fact , My atty is so rehearsed in all these common arugments , He tells me point blank , " That argument won't work because she will just say some reason etc , You have to have better documentation or what ever , So" don't file or get up set just do this" . And he tells me what to do .  His remedies have worked so far and there are several issues that did not wind up in court , Some did go to court . Like when I tried his remedy of using dispute resolution , But The ones that work with out court don't cost . My atty has suggest for me to handle certain things . NOT specifically for the legal result but purely for the purpose of her getting a charge from her atty for it , And Me handling it my self is inexpensive , He calls this behavior modification , Ya really  Have to get an atty that knows the difference between a legal issue and a way to modify her behavior over the long haul ,

[FL_48603]

>>My ex-girlfriend and her now current husband have done nothing but try to alienate my daughter from me for the last year. They are constantly telling me that I am trying to cause trouble for them when all I want to do is see my daughter and try to plan a portion of my own life.<<

Transference is the most common initial attack, and emotional stability are where they will hit you second.  Finances first emotions second.

>>If plans get changed or things are to be different they go through my daughter. My ex use to talk to me and now is not allowed to via her husband. His exact words, "She now married and is my wife and we bought a new home together and she has a new truck I bought her for her birthday and we are happy and do not want you to cause us problems.<<

The common vernacular use by The Courts is:

"Both parties enjoined to communicate amicably between them as regards to health, well being and transference of minor child".

The FACT is that The Court generally ORDERS the parties to communicate with one another, and while I am not a lawyer, I don't think that a newlywed necessarily buys out the judges order no matter how hot a commodity he fancies himself, or how much he invests in "His Woman".

>>All I wanted was an extra two days because I lost 5 in the beginning of my vistitation for summer because I was nice and let her mother have her for the 4th.<<

First of all, as my Dad used to tell me: "If you don't know your rights, you haven't got any".

Being "nice" and "letting mom" this, that and the other... doesn't mean squat.  Sure you hear all about it, but when it comes to court, it's just more mind f*ck intended to soothe your out of standing up for your rights.

YOU HAVE A RIGHT to see your child as much as that ORDER grants you, and if you plan to give ANY of it up, you better submit in writting to the courts the fact that you are doing so in agreement that it gets made up elsewhere.

OTHERWISE, they WILL come back with: "Your Honor, he doesn't even use the visitation time he has, let me tell you a l l  about it..."

>>I was suppose to get her on the 1st. Well anyway I have had it being the nice guy.<<

Now you sound like you are ready to start WINNING A CASE, as opposed to cooperating with your own downfall.

>>This woman has had our daughter in 5 schools and she is just starting 6th grade. On top of that the school she will be going to is not the one she is suppose to be in. Her mother and stepdad moved out of her school district and now reside in another and her mother is going to lie and say she is living at an address within the limits.<<

I recommend that you document all of this, staple it to a declaration page and them submit it to the courts so they can assess it when the time comes that they must.

>>If she is caught my she will have to pay tuition and she knows that I know what she is doing.<<

Does she look at these websites?

>>Well is she wants to lie thats one thing but I am tired of being part of the lie.<<

Never miss the chance the nail the opposition at EVERY chance.

UNLESS YOU ARE THE CUSTODIAL PARENT AND CAN AFFORD TO PLAY THE BELEVOLENT ALTRUISTIC ONE, DON'T.

Cooperate, do whats best for the child, but NEVER allow yourself to be duped into thinking that being the nice guy will win you points with the mom later.

>>The part that makes me sick is that she has taught my daughter that if you can not get what you want by telling the truth you lie.<<

This is argument number one as to why a man like youself needs to secure with 100% assurance that you will have full influence over your daughter's perception of her Father.

>>Which is one of the reasons we are not together. I kept hoping that her mother's habitual lying would not pass on to our child but I can see thats hopeless.<<

Children learn by example.  That is WHY a man in a child's life is so important - a mom cannot SHOW BY EXAMPLE what a child learns from their father - becuase the mother is the mother and the father the father.

The natural order is supreme.

>>Now she not only has a mother who lies but a stepdad who embellishes stories that anyone would question. So what would you do?<<

GOOD QUESTION, AND I AM GLAD YOU ASKED!  I would motion that the court stipulate in an order that transference of the child be mandated to occur by the mother bringing the child to a nuetral place where objective observers will stand gaurd until you can safely pick the child up.

This way there will be objective observers who will see exactly what is taking place AND only the mother and father of the child will be involved.

What this new yo-yo doesn't get is that you and his new trophy bride share something that he and she never will - the child.  No SUV's or other "toys" will ever change that.

>>Turn her in?<<

Hell YES.  Think of it this way... you are not TURNING HER IN, you are motioning the court for a better way for the kid.  Does the kid deserve a better way? Hell YES!

[FL_48603]

>>If you don't have a court order parenting plan none of this even matters , You have to have a court order to enforce , My best tool so Far is be nice let them screw up and ambush unexpectadly . It just seems like more fun to wonder what she will be thinking when she gets the unexpected legal service And has to go see her atty !!<<

This is brilliant advice. Seems to ge on target and I hope to learn a lot from your postings.

[gipsy]

the reason I write this is because,  I face a woman ,That I have had to take to court for every single advance In My visitation , And I hope this is not the case for every one and, I hope that every one tries Mediation and talking first ,Court is a last resort To get visitaion , My whole story is long , However , It took eleven Months to get supervised visits because of her false allegations , Then I had to get an order for a few more supervised visits , Then I had to get an order for weekends ,Day time , Then I had to get an order for One over night , Then it took atty letters for summer vacation , Then It took Trial for her to advance to Every other weekend and every Thursday , Vacations and holidays , And My atty wrote that at school age the parenting plan can be modified for winter break , and spring break , I am reasonably certain that I will be back in court for that also ,
   I hope that people on here can negotiate and not have to go to court ,
     But I have to face the reality of My situation ,Wich is court for every single visit and or issue ,
   I hope you don't take My advice into a more mild situation ,
       The mother refused any contact with out a court order ,
  Even at this I would ask her to advance the visitaion time in an agrred order , She's so stupid she would say . She"ll have to talk to Her atty , I wouldn't Say Any thing else , I would Just have my atty file ,
   Most of this is simple , I used an atty , The worst thing is the stress , But you have to look at the Big picture . And I followed the advice Of My atty . And "  Kept her feet to the coals "
   The one thing I wish I would have done is kept My declarations shorter ,
   As In :  Per the Guardian ad Litems recomendation . On Page such and such < I am Asking the court to sign My order That gives Me ' XYZ visitation :
   All the other stuff is atty's making money , And Here;'s how I know , When I went to a good atty, He said " Why write all that stuff about Her refusal to communicate and cooperate " The Judge Knows this "<  THATS WHY YOU ARE ASKING THE JUDGE TO SETTLE THE ISSUE !!

[fairness]

Norm:

Some of the things you post seem odd about daughter's home life. Makes me wonder about the new hubby/Dad in the home, and I think you need to some checking on why he can't or doesn't have any visitation. It also seems weird why they would keep daughter in a school in a different county unless that school is so much better. Seem like Mom is not much into school anyways. A couple ideas come to mind- daughter wants to stay with friends as your district is K-6 and then middle school is 7-8 ? Seems  more troublesome to drive daughter to school every day and back rather than take a bus or walk to neighborhood school. Often districts allow a transfer from one residence to another school just because a sibling is there or they were already in the 5th grade their and the parents are willing to make the drive. I feel you don't have all the facts and you need to go down to the school and get yourself involved. A child who is doing so poorly in school deserves an IEP Individual Education Plan paid for by the District, and you need to have weekly contact with the teacher to get daughter's school work in line. This can be done with no contact with the ex-girlfriend's "new hubby". Go and volunteer to work an hour a week in daughter's classroom. Get yourself into daughter's life in a positive way and out of the line of fire from "new hubby".
Keep your visitations going. Keep communication with ex-girlfriend to businesslike. If you have to send her letters to notify her do it that way.

In your posts are some I want to quit comments and I think in your heart you don't mean that, you mean I want this to be easier. Well that sounds like it is not in the cards right now but keep contact with daughter and hopefully you will find great happiness in your fiancee and make the time you have with daughter count. Take her to library get her into sports keep daughter on the positive. They grow up so fast it sometimes is a blur.

[fairness]

I don't think the issue of five school changes is enough to get court involved. The doing poorly in school or something "wierd" at home may be... get all the facts and get more involved in school work. Sorry I gave advise that involves uphill climb.