Proving alienation...

[gemini3]

Is there any way to prove that someone is bad mouthing you to the kids, or pumping the kids for information?  We know that this is happening, but how do you prove it in court?  Has anyone had an experience like this?  

[Jade]

>Is there any way to prove that someone is bad mouthing you to
>the kids, or pumping the kids for information?  We know that
>this is happening, but how do you prove it in court?  Has
>anyone had an experience like this?  


The only ways that I can think of to prove it is if someone who is impartial and who has witnessed the above testifies for you in court.

Or if the kids testify in court.

Personally, I prefer the former.  The latter puts the kids more in the middle than they already are.  

[mistoffolees]

When considering witnesses, keep in mind that it's an uphill battle. A person who's a friend of yours or your family is not a great witness because they're perceived as biased. A person who is your ex's family or friend may TELL you that they'll testify, but when sitting in the court room face to face with their friend or family member, their memory suddenly isn't so great. You MAY find a neutral person to testify, but they're mostly scared of being sued (teachers, doctors, etc). The good ones will take that chance if the kid's safety is in danger, but if it's 'only' a parent who is at risk, the number who will step forward is smaller.

That's not to say that it's impossible, but it's a tough thing to prove. And even if you prove it, you have to convince the judge that it's important enough to take whatever action you want them to take.

Bottom line is that I personally think it's (unfortunately) an almost unwinnable battle in all but the most severe cases.

Good luck.

[SPARC Admin]

You Don't Have To Prove PAS
Full Article: http://www.deltabravo.net/custody/provepas.php


You Don't Have To Prove PAS
The best answer we have come up with is "Don't try to prove PAS." Currently, PAS is extremely controversial, and you're more likely to get caught up in a battle over the diagnosis than over your own situation. Also keep in mind that unless you are a qualified mental health professional, you cannot diagnose PAS. PAS is an illness, not a set of circumstances.

Although you cannot diagnose PAS, you can state that you believe there "is alienation occurring", and you can document the emotional and psychological abuse associated with PAS, as well as its effect on the child, without labeling it PAS.

Full Article: http://www.deltabravo.net/custody/provepas.php

[gemini3]

Thank you.  I have read the article, and read it again now.  We're fortunate in the fact that the kids aren't exhibiting many symptoms of PAS.  I am lucky enough to have enough regular contact with them that I can usually negate most of this stuff.  If I have to go several weeks without seeing the kids, they have a hard time when they come over for the first time again, but in a day or so they're fine.  

I guess it just bothers me that this kind of thing is going on, and what effect it will have on the kids.  I have heard the BM pumping them for information on the phone, and they will repeat to me the things they're told.  I know they're not coming up with these things on their own.

I'm worried because BM is such an adept manipulator.  She does/will lie about these things, and there's no way I can prove that she is doing it.  We've talked to one child's therapist about it, and she says that her problems are associated with the divorce and all the discord she sees between her parents.  I tried to explain what's going on, but BM tells her that she doesn't do this stuff, and I don't think she knows who to believe.  It's been 2 1/2 years, so the divorce issues should have subsided now, in my opinion.  Especially since BM initiated the divorce, and is engaged to someone else now.  I can't seem to get the therapist to understand that I am doing everything I can to smooth the path, but it doesn't matter what I do because BM is bent on creating problems.  It's VERY frustrating.

Thanks for all of the support.

[escape2paradise]

If it hasn't gotten so bad that the kids don't "appear" to be suffering, then there is little you can do to prevent this.  Are the kids not open with the counselor about what mom says?  

I am going through the same thing.  Didn't know what was going on at first, but once I figured it out I started doing what I could to counteract it.  I am dealing with PAS symptoms at the moderate level.  We have a GAL involved in our case and she agrees that alienation is likely, and thus does the childs counselor.  However, the GAL is reluctant to put a halt to it as the physical proof just isn't there and she seems to be overly concerned about the wishes of my child.  Slowly though things are happening and the adults involved are figuring it out.  

Sometimes you just have to deal with the symptoms as best you can while those who are supposed to be protecting the childs best interest take forever to see things for what they are.  Be patient, though I know it's hard,  given enough rope alienator's usually end up hanging them selves.

[awakenlynn]

How do you try and counteract it?  We try to call 2x's a week when we can, but the talking is rather stilted, SD gets pumped on the conversations and she can't say 'I love you' with out getting in trouble.  If they go out of town or to family (near us) no phone answers, the voicemails aren't returned and no anwering machine will pick up the entire visit.

We keep up emails, but there are times she won't check it.  We got her a web cam, but she's not allowed to use it.  We were sharing a yahoo calendar, but she isn't allowed to do that.  We try to send a package out especially during holidays, and they don't pick it up til way later, and in the case of SD's 8th grade graduation, it they never picked it up and came back to us.

When SD had to take her first lay-over flight, SD freaked out for a week, mom told her she was going to be lost and all alone and that once SD turns 15 they won't take SD as an unaccompanied minor any more and that she will really be alone.

What else can we do?  We are going to start a family web page so SD can go and has another way to stay involved with us.  I am hoping to try and start scrapbooking with her (I have never scrapbooked before!!!), but it is something she loves to do.

Anything else?

Thanks,
Lynn

[Kitty C.]

If you have that court-ordered, then any refusal by the BM to send your SD by plane will be considered contempt.  And the ONLY reason why your SD would freak out before a flight is because 'someone' is influencing her about how bad it will be.  If she were given positive feedback, she would have no problem now getting on a plane by herself.

I don't suppose it's possible to have a mature (!) conversation with the BM about this, is there?  Like mentioning conditioning SD now about how bad it is to fly will not only inhibit her from visitation with you, but it could 'permanently' scar her for life and cause her to have a 'learned' phobia of flying, requiring protracted and in-depth therapy to reverse it.  Maybe remind the BM that the seeds she's sowing now could come back to bite her in ways she never dreamed of......like her daughter (as an adult) never wanting to come see HER because of her inordinate fear of flying.  Like being forced to drive her everywhere because that is the only mode of transportation SD can tolerate.  Is the BM prepared to deal with that?  Just some questions you might want to ask her.....

Let me give you an example of positive vs. negative influence.  DS's father died the summer of 2002, when DS was only 13.  We knew he was ill, but he wasn't diagnosed until almost 3 weeks after DS arrived and died 3 weeks after that.  But that didn't change the fact that it took some convincing to get DS to board the plane, since it was his first flight after 9/11.  He even noticed the shoe searches there were doing at the gate and was visibly nervous.  I had to do a LOT of talking to convince him that it was safe, then the pilots of his plane showed up at the gate.  I asked DS if he would like to talk to them....I'm sure they would be willing to tell him how safe it is to fly.  That was all it took to convince him that it was going to be alright.

And to this day, DS thanks God that he did get on that plane, because it was the last time he ever saw his dad.  And I thank God I was able to talk him thru his fears.

That's the difference between alleviating a child's fears and PLANTING them, which it appears the BM is doing in the case of your SD.  But in your case, maybe if you can convince the BM that she will also pay for her actions regarding this, she might think otherwise.  Maybe it's a long shot, but what the heck............

[MixedBag]

First forwards, then backwards.

Then go back again and highlight everything that you feel applies to you.

then go back and write down page number and general subject of whatever you highlighted so it's easier for you to find.

By then, you will have read the book well.

My kids (all 3), my former step-kids (three too), all flew, fly, and will continue to fly.....very very safe.

And like Kitty said, a lot has to do with the attitude of the parent on the departing end.  

My son has absolutely no fears of flying.  And then too the subject of connections came up and it was quite obvious what was going on.  When he was here with me, he and his step-brother were all for "making a connection" and that it would be no problem.  Then when he got back to the CP's house, for some reason all that confidence went right out the window.

No he hasn't made a connection yet.  This fall might be the first time he has to, and we shall see.

Heck, I'm really proud that this summer (he's 14), he printed off his boarding ticket by himself, and got through security, to the gate, on the plane, and flew down here.  CP dropped him off at the curb for the first time.  He's done it in Atlanta a few times -- and yes, Atlanta is much bigger than where he departs from.  He's proud to do it.

And yes, we have emergency plans in place -- so it's a matter of attitude of the sending parent just like Kitty says.