Vexatious Mom's

[gemini3]

I found this forum when looking for advice on how to deal with my boyfriend's ex.  At the time, I was disturbed about how malicious his ex appeared to be in her interactions with him, and I couldn't understand why she would be so full of anger towards him when she was the one who had an affair, chose to end their marriage of 12 years, and still lives with the man she had an affair with.  I figured she ought to be happy since she got what she wanted, yet it appears that her sole purpose in life is to make my boyfriend as miserable as possible, and uses their children to do that.

After having read post after post here, and story after story elsewhere, of women who go to the most extreme of lengths to ruin their ex-husband's relationship with their children, I've become really concerned.  I wonder why so many women are so filled with uncontrollable and unwarranted hatred of their ex-husband's, to the point that they seem to lose touch with reality.  My boyfriends ex has shown that she has no problem telling outright lies in order to get people "on her side", she has made false allegations of abuse, and bad-mouthed my boyfriend to the kids about everything you could think of.  She refuses to cooperate with him in even the smallest of ways, and for not reason other than to just say no and make his life more difficult.  

I wonder what reason they have for their behavior, what their motivations might be, and what can be done to change the way they deal with these situations so that there isn't so much damage done.  Does anyone have any insight they can share?

[Ref]

Parental Alienation Syndrome. So many of us here have to cope with our kids or stepkids being manipulated and having to cope with verbal,physical, and legal abuse from our exs or SO's ex.

I suggest you start looking into this by googling the term. It sounds like it fits perfectly in your case. DH's ex is probably a moderate form. She is typically subtle in her manipulation of SD. She physically moved herself and SD 1300 miles away, in her words, out of spite. When SD was younger, BM left the phone off the hook or picked it up and hung-up directly so DH couldn't talk to SD. It could go on and on. Luckily she never disappeared or accused of physical abuse against SD. (She accused me of spanking but it never went anywhere).

Let me tell you something though. My bestfriend is a great friend but an aweful wife. She is 30 and married and divorced twice. Her last exhusband is an angel. He is sweet and funny and responsible. She left him a couple of months ago. She cheated on him. She talks about him like he was the villian. Luckily there are no kids involved, so once all the papers are signed they can live their own lives, but I think this is typical of women taking on the role of victim in their own heads.

 I think that woman are suseptable to this because of them not being forced to be responsible by the typical upbringing of a little girl. Honestly, we all know women get away will pulling more crap than men. On TV you will see a woman slap a man in the face because he says something objectionable. If a man did the same he would get his a$$ hanged to him then get cuffed.

I'll get off my soapbox.

Best Wishes,
Ref

[gemini3]

I agree.  I have read a little bit about Parental Alienation, and I have gotten a couple books on it, but I guess I just don't understand how they can get things so twisted around in thier minds.  I know she does what she does just to hurt my boyfriend, and she's even told him that herself - I just don't understand why.  The problem is that she's so bent on villifying her ex-husband that she's seems to have totally lost her grip on reality.  Or, maybe not, maybe she knows that she's lying about all of these things and that he's not such a horrible person or dad, but I just can't fathom that someone would knowingly be so cruel.  It's sociopathic behavior, and it concerns me greatly that this person has so much influence over thier children.  I would hate to see this pattern of behavior repeated in the children, you know?  

I also don't understand why the court systems don't pay more attention to this stuff.  Why are women, or men, allowed to violate the rights of the other parent.  Why is it that they don't even appear to have any rights?  It's really troubling...

[notnew]

Let me state here that this is notnew's wife. My opinions are not the norm and I don't want DH to get bashed because everyone thinks this is coming from a guy.

I have a VERY unconventional take on this behavior that has seemed to have developed in the last oh about 30 years. Can't anyone else but me see the direct connection to this time line and the big push of the "burn your bra" women's movement?

I'm not talking about women voting, owning their property, being in control of their finances, etc. I believe people are people and all should have the same rights no matter their sex, sexual preference, color, country of origin, religion, whatever. I don't have to like everyone, but they have the right to live just like I do period.

However, our society just cannot seem to understand that when our governmental machine works to overcome injustice, no matter what the issue, they don't know how to bring things in balance. What they end up doing to "make things right" for those who are the victims of injustice, is tip the scales SO much in the victims favor that most often, they put the victims in the position of being the tormentor. Too often, the victims are pleased as punch to get some revenge and run with it, not seeing they are now just as wrong as those that oppressed them before.

So, we look at battered women, men who owned the children, etc., all the terrible issues that took place up until the mid 1900's. Then a change took place. Laws were put in place to protect women and children who were in abusive relationships and had nowhere to turn for help. Laws were put into place to hold the abuser accountable. Laws were put into place to help enable women and men to live and work on the same level. Just like the game LIFE, everyone starts off with the same stuff and life just happens from there. These laws were rightly put into place. However, they are so open ended, they lead to the abuses we see today.

Women as a whole have gone off the deep end with this whole empowerment thing. They've taken it too far. It's great to feel good about yourself, confident in your abilities, have a successful career, etc. It's okay to be great at your job and not a good cook. It's okay to not want to be a wife and/or mother. The playing field has been leveled to a certain degree (everyone will find situations where life is not fair - people are NOT perfect - imagine that!).  Women have the tools to better their lives in most cases if they so choose. There will always be instances where the oppisite happens. We cannot control everything. However, I see too many women who are angry about NOTHING! The only thing I can see them getting angry about is that they can't control everything and everybody. What the courts do is enable and allow the women who take it to the extreme (and the numbers are getting higher every day people!), the power to do so. In their wake men's and children's lives and mental health are laid to waste.

What happened to women who nurtured their children? Where are they all going? I see them becoming an endangered species. I cannot fathom women who make these choices, carry out these vindictive actions, use the children as weapons, poison their minds and souls as women who are working to "teach" their children to be kind, considerate, honest, hardworking, productive members of society. And we all wonder what is wrong with kids and why it keeps getting worse? I cannot blame women altogether for the state our chidren are in as a whole. However, the media, the idea that kids don't need dads or extended families, and the policies our government keeps putting in place that rip our live to pieces have reinforced to these women who think like this to continue on unchecked. These women have raised girls to believe the same types of things, and raised boys who have learned to keep their mouths shut and do whatever it takes to make mommy happy (later, their girlfriends, wives, ex-wives). To battle against this growing problem that is now an acceptable form of behavior in our society is just about impossible. Is it now considered "weird" to let your kids love their dad, step mom, extended family on the "other" side? Is it not normal to want your child to have loving support from the whole family?  It seems that is where we are quickly leading to for all children.

Women did not like it when men dominated them and it wasn't right. It is not right for women to dominate men and behave like tyrants sacrificing their own children if they don't get their way. Why is it so hard to see this?

The focus on making deadbeat dads be responsible for their children has totally taken the focus off of the fact that moms need to be responsible parents too. How many deadbeat moms are out there who never pay their child support? I KNOW without looking at any numbers that more men go to jail then women for failure to pay their child support. How many custodial moms go to jail for mentally damaging their child by playing these PAS games?  I know there are some men who play the PAS game too, but we all know that by far this behavior is more often displayed by women. Maybe this is only because women get custody more often. Maybe if men go custody more often, we'd see this behavior in a different balance. I don't know. I don't think so though.

I know what I've been through with my own children and I know what my husband has gone through on his end. Yes, my ex showed some alienating actions in the first year of our separation. He still won't say my name and we can very rarely speak to each other without it leading to me hanging up. However, his interactions with me now are based on the dynamics of our relationship while married. He still speaks to me as he did before and acts like he did before and I drew a line in the sand and have not allowed him to cross it. I do have the right to say, I will not allow you to speak to me like that and follow through. I don't have to argue as we did when married. All that is over. That is why I divorced him. However, my husband's interactions with his ex have escalated due to her ability through the courts to take her anger out on him through the child.

Anyway. I have ran on too long and need to get back to work.

I hope I didn't ruffle too many feathers.

[gemini3]

I understand where you're coming from, although I'm not exactly sure that it's the women's movement that's causing it.  I am a single woman in my thirties who has a professional career.  I've never been taken care of by anyone except myself, yet I'm not so selfish as to do the things that I see these women do.  

I tend to think that it's more the fact that many people these days seem to be sorely lacking in character development.  Maybe the women's movement is partially responsible for this because so many kids are left to grow up doing whatever they feel like doing, with no parents around to teach them right from wrong, and no one holding them accountable for their actions.  

Maybe it's just that, if these people didn't have the character traits necessary to participate in these behaviors they wouldn't be divorced in the first place.  I mean, there's a reason ex's are ex's, right?   So, it's not the divorce that's causing them to be the way they are, they were already that way - the divorce just made the situation worse.  

I liked what you said about deadbeat mom's.  A friend of mine has two stepchildren that she and her husband have had custody of for 8 years - the kids mom hasn't paid a dime in child support, and they have been to court five times trying to enforce it, but to no avail.  My boyfriends ex doesn't work, she collects food stamps and welfare and lives with her boyfriend.  She uses her kids as pawns, tries to erase any influence their dad and his side of the family has on the kids and totally alienate them from him - yet everyone thinks she's the victim.  So, if no one is calling her out for her behavior, but just feeding into it, what reason does she have to stop?

I would never tolerate a friend of mine acting in this way.  I believe in the saying "I am my brother's keeper." (and I'm not even a christian), and if I see someone doing something wrong I will say so.  If my friend doesn't like it, oh well, sometimes the truth hurts.  If they didn't change, I would end the friendship.  I don't believe in people saying that it's not their business - because it IS your business.

I think that there are so many societal ills, including this one, that could be cured by nothing more than people just holding each other accountable for their actions and not waiting for the government to do it.

[notnew]

If women and men were held accountable to the same set of rules in the instance of family law, then these women would not be acting like this. I got to rambling on so, I didn't mean to give the impression that I think women are responsible for all problems, I just see that this crack in our system lets these things happen.

Yes, these women have character flaws from day one and you are right, the system allows them to continue their torment and in face often lets them increase in their bad behaviors with no consequences.

The sad thing is, if my DH for instance were to try to talk to his ex about the issues, she would start an argument and it would most likely lead to a physical confrontation. I have come to believe that she is afraid of nothing short of a whupping and even then, she would use that to get the courts to restrict his access altogether being that now he is violent. Her behaviors have been intentional to try to goad him into knocking her lights out. How long do you try to reason with someone, speak in a calm manner, comprimise, etc., when you are getting laughed at, cursed at, there is absolutely no discussion about the child because after she says her few choice words she throws the phone down and walks away laughing. She does nothing for the child that she should it seem just because she doesn't have to and he can't make her and she intends to prove it to him. She isn't even afraid of the judges who have chastised her repeatedly. Until there are real consequences, she continues on this path.

How do you stop it? From where I sit, I believe the only answer for women who are this spiteful is to push as hard as you have to as early in the case as possible to get full custody and if that is unattainable stay as involved as you can until the point when the kid is in full blown PAS and then let go until that kid comes to you on their own (which may never happen). This is where we are right now.

I am sorry you are going through this mess. There is a step-mom website smoms.org that is a great place to vent as well.

Be strong, your going to need it.

[sherrie ohio]

In our case when the BM start's a new relationship she has the children calling the new man "Daddy"every time and their Dad's by their frist names.And cut's my huband's time way down,and begin's putting down the father's infront of the kid's.To boost up the emage of the current man infront of the children and anyone who will listen.
Some of the kid's dont even know who their real father's are,their so confused.....

[Kitty C.]

SS is now almost 13, but when he was 5 (and BM had just remarried), he brought a sports bag with toys in it for the weekend once.  Not long before DH was to take him hime, I noticed that BM had written SS's name on the bag, using HER new last name!

I took DH aside, showed it to him, and told him he should address this NOW, before it gets out of hand.  So as DH was taking SS home, he asked SS what his name was, and he used his new step-dad's name!  DH told him no, that his last name was the same as DH's, and SS began to cry!  Apparently BM had been filling his head with all kids of crap that wasn't true.  

When DH got to BM's, he informed her that if she did not talk to SS and straighten this out and ever tried anything like this again, he would have her in court so fast it would make her head swim.  Apparently it scared her enough that it never was an issue again.  Probably only because she knew she couldn't afford an atty., but she didn't know that neither could we, LOL!  But it still pissed me off that she would mess with that child's head so bad that he didn't even know who he was...........

[wysiwyg]

Parentectomy is the removal, erasure, or severe diminution of a caring parent in a child's life, following separation or divorce.

Parentectomy covers a large range of parent removal from partial parentectomy, "You may visit your Daddy or Mommy every other Sunday"; to total parentectomy, as in Parental Alienation Syndrome, described by Gardner; or complete parent absence or removal. The victims of parentectomy are the children and the parents so severed from each other's lives. A parentectomy is the most cruel infringement upon children's rights to be carried out against human children by human adults. Parentectomies are psychologically lethal to children and parents.

In the worst consequential wake of a parentectomy , the victim parent gives up and walks away from the surgically-minded adults and the victim children. When this happens, the victim parent walks away from the chronic warring battlefield with intense ambivalence and confusion, faced with an insoluble dilemma. He or she knows that the chronic war in which one parent tries to erase the other parent, and the other parent struggles to stave off the parentectomy, is itself destructive to the children, as it causes ongoing tension and stress in them, as well as in the ongoing interaction between the children and each of their parents. On the other hand, if a mother or father gives up and walks away from the war, the children feel abandoned by a loved and needed parent, and unusually resent and become depressed over the abandonment.


READ THE FULL ARTICLE AT http://www.deltabravo.net/custody/pas-nccr.php