As an NCP, do you feel that child support orders are just and fair in your case and that no matter what, the CP's lifestyle should be maintained for the sake of the children?

[olanna]

Results are in for the poll..

Of the 12 people that responded, 9 of them agreed the system doesn't work...so that was 75%.

Of the 12 people that responded, 2 of them felt the system worked well.  
So what's that...about 17%.

And one person felt it worked most of the time, so that was about 8%.

I am sure if more posters would have voted the 90% would have been easily reached. 75% of the existing isn't too far either.

So as you can see, most people on these boards find the current system DOES NOT work for them.

[richiejay]

>OK. So your point is that all the "the system is horribly
>broken and serves no useful purpose" opinions are completely
>unsubstantiated by fact.
>
>That's exactly what I've been saying.


  I am saying opinions don't have to be substantiated by anything.  
Example, "I think George Bush is an idiot" does not have to be backed up by anything.  It is what I think.  You can spout until your blue in the face about facts how he is not, but I think otherwise.  Now, you can try to change my opinion by adding your opinion and what you think are relevant facts, but you can't change what I think because I own it,  it is my opinion.

[leon clugston]

You realy act like an immature child,
if you cannot even read the facts posted, how do you even read cases? or do you just take what the laywer/ state tells you for granted. In either case, youre boring, kinda like an entity without a title.

[Kitty C.]

The ONLY way you will ever find that out, Mist, is if you interview every single CP and NCP in the nation.  And that is certainly impossible.  I have been on this site almost since inception, and the views expressed by Stirling are the common thread that can be found throughout the entire CS forum.  Now, there's 4000+ people signed up on this site, and that doesn't mean all of them have ever voiced their opinion on this subject.  But after reading this particular forum for the past 9+ years, I can honestly say that this theme covers at least 80% of the posts in that time.  Now, if you want to go back and examine every single post on this forum back to inception just to prove or disprove the point, you have way too much time on your hands.  But if I've been reading this same theme over and over again for the past 9+ years, I tend to believe that the system is terribly flawed!

[mistoffolees]

I'm an immature child because I ask you to back up your arguments with facts?

I'm still waiting for you to:
1. Provide evidence that the system fails to do its job in a significant number of cases.
2. Provide a recommendation of what you consider to be a better system.
3. Provide in clear English a statement of your position.

You post a lot, but you never seem to get around to doing any of those things.

Meanwhile:
Here, let me show you how it's done:
http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/07/assessing-CS-debt/execsum.htm

Just a few facts from this study:
-89% of child support obligations are being paid on time in CA.

-Of the 11% of obligations that are in arrears, 15% are erroneous (the parent doesn't owe anything). 11% of the 11% account for more than half of the arrears - which means that a very small number (1.2% of the total child support obligations) parents owe more than $30 K in arrears.

-57% of obligors owed less than $5 K in arrears.

-Only 22% of the obligors (2.4% of the entire population) had low or no income - but the study was unable to verify that all of them truly had low income since it had no mechanism to look for unreported income.

Yes, the system has problems. But the stuff you're complaining about is NOT that common. More importantly, if you stop worrying about yourself and think about the kids for a change, you'd see that 89% of the time, the system is doing what it's supposed to.

[mistoffolees]

What you're forgetting is that people who post here are far more unlikely than the average to have problems.

Why can't you interview a large, representative population? In fact, it's been done:

Here, let me show you how it's done:
http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/07/assessing-CS-debt/execsum.htm

Just a few facts from this study:
-89% of child support obligations are being paid on time in CA.

-Of the 11% of obligations that are in arrears, 15% are erroneous (the parent doesn't owe anything). 11% of the 11% account for more than half of the arrears - which means that a very small number (1.2% of the total child support obligations) parents owe more than $30 K in arrears.

-57% of obligors owed less than $5 K in arrears.

-Only 22% of the obligors (2.4% of the entire population) had low or no income - but the study was unable to verify that all of them truly had low income since it had no mechanism to look for unreported income.

Yes, the system has problems. But the stuff you're complaining about is NOT that common. More importantly, if you stop worrying about yourself and think about the kids for a change, you'd see that 89% of the time, the system is doing what it's supposed to.

Oh, and I'd be interested in your explanation of how child support payments are going to improve if there are no penalties like loss of driving privileges, court appearances, 'hounding' by CSE, etc for not paying your child support. Even a moment's thought would say that the only thing this could do is reduce the number of children being supported.


The fact that a lot of people who come to a board seeking help for problems with child support and custody happen to have problems with child support and custody is not valid evidence that the system is broken. The above evidence says that it works most of the time - which is all I've said.

AND, I notice that no one has proposed a better system, either.

[mistoffolees]

Sure. You're entitled to an opinion no matter how wrong it is.

The way you resolve that is with facts. So far, I'm the only one who has provided any facts that are representative of the population as a whole and the evidence is that the system works as designed at least 89% of the time.

Whining that it's horribly broken and evil and unfair is a valid opinion, but the facts just don't support it.

[mistoffolees]

>Results are in for the poll..
>
>Of the 12 people that responded, 9 of them agreed the system
>doesn't work...so that was 75%.
>
>Of the 12 people that responded, 2 of them felt the system
>worked well.  
>So what's that...about 17%.
>
>And one person felt it worked most of the time, so that was
>about 8%.
>
>I am sure if more posters would have voted the 90% would have
>been easily reached. 75% of the existing isn't too far
>either.

Take a course in statistics before you embarrass yourself further.

>
>So as you can see, most people on these boards find the
>current system DOES NOT work for them.
>

Well, gee. People who come to a board looking for help with custody and support problems see problems in the system. Do you really think that is representative of the population as a whole?

Furthermore, your poll was biased in its wording.

Even more importantly, every single person who posted that it doesn't work has proven that their mind is closed or they're blinded by their own opinion. Several others and I have posted that the system worked in our case - so a vote for 'the system never works' simply ignores the facts in front of people.

And, then, there's the fact that even in your biased poll of a biased population it didn't hit the 90% you claimed.

When you actually do the study correctly, the system is working properly at least 89% of the time - not 10% as you claim. See my other posts on the subject.

[reagantrooper]

Of course the CS system works great just as designed!!

The STATE takes the money I work hard to earn directly out of my biweekly pay check and deposits said money into a STATE held bank account (%25 of my hard earned money). At this point MY hard earned money is out of my hands, not at my disposal but at the STATES.
 
At this point the STATE will recieve a certain amount of FEDERAL money for taking my hard earned money and depositing it into a STATE held bank account. Of note, I also pay (though my FEDERAL taxes) the FEDERAL monies that the STATE will recieve. At this point, the STATE is earning dollars from MY money .


At this point said monies will sit in said STATE held bank account for 2-5 days all the while earning interest for the STATE. I do not recieve any credit whatsoever for the interest funds that MY money is earning for the STATE. At this point, the STATE is earning FREE dollars from MY money.

At this point the STATE will cut a check against MY hard earned money and send it to another ADULT to spend in whatever way said ADULT chooses. Said ADULT does not have to account for any amount of said funds. The ADULT can support my child with said funds or the ADULT can spend the funds on bon-bons, cars, pets, porn, dope, other kids that are not MINE, can stash it away, ETC ETC ETC!! At this point the ADULT has been given free money.

Now this is the jurney that MY hard earned money takes though the "child support" system into another ADULTS hands.

I earn my money, I pay taxes on my money, my money is taken by the state, the state earns thier money off of my money, my money is given to another adult to spend how she pleases.

So sure the system works just dandy as designed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Take note the CHILD is only metioned once in this jurney.

[richiejay]

 I never offered any opinions on the subject.  I don't know if the system is broke or it's not.  Funny thing about using figures, though.  Figures can lie, and liars can figure.  You can take any set of figures and manipulate them to support your argument.  Until you poll every person  you will never truly know what the actual percentage is of people that think the system is broken.    
And for some, the system is broken.  It is unfair to them.