Deadbeat Parents on Pizza Boxes

[mistoffolees]

>If the person can't be found, what are the chances that the
>person is actually paying the child support?  

How many people have actually not been found after a significant effort? In my experience, the majority of people I've heard about weren't identified because CS didn't make much of an effort. Seems to me that the more appropriate action would be to make the effort to find them.

>
>No child should have to put up with a parent who does not pay
>child support.  


No person should have to put up with being wrongfully labeled a deadbeat.

Or are you still claiming that this system will magically be perfect and no one will ever be mislabeled? And if the system is perfect, then they'd be able to find all the people who owe child support, so it's not needed, anyway.

[mistoffolees]

>
>$1.00 a month towards child support just doesn't count.  

You just proved my point.

First you said it was only for people who aren't paying at all. Now, you're saying it's for people who aren't paying what you think is enough. See how things get distorted?

It gets left to the whims of some caseworker or judge to determine who to penalize. Better for them to do their job and find the person rather than demonizing people who may be innocent.

>
>Sorry, but if you are not going to pay child support, you are
>going to have to live with the consequences.  

You're missing the point.

What about the people who don't owe child support but who are wrongfully targeted?

I don't have any problem with people being forced to pay child support if they owe it. I fully support going after them with the full force of the law and doing a full-blown search for them using all the resources at the government's disposal. And if they're really guilty, make them pay the expenses.

I'm simply opposed to people being labeled guilty and humiliated (and, in many cases, probably losing their jobs) at the discretion of a system that operates outside the legal system.

>
>Again, if they KNEW where the ncp was, they would be
>collecting child support.  Kind of hard to enforce a court
>order when you don't know where the person is.  

I asked this question once before and you refused to answer it: How many people who owe child support are missing and no one knows where they are AFTER MAKING A SUBSTANTIAL EFFORT to find them. The majority of ones I've heard about, the effort to find them was cursory, at best.

>
>Which is the "witch hunt" comes in.  Their face is on a pizza
>box.  Someone who knows where they are just may report them.
>Then they can enforce the court order.  
>
>BTW, this "witch hunt" is also used in wanted posters of
>people who are suspects in crimes.  Are you saying that we
>should eliminate that since the person on poster has not been
>contacted?  

The people on those wanted posters have been identified through the court system. They have invariably been convicted or indicted but failed to show up for trial. The court system has adequate safeguards for wrongfully listing someone on wanted posters. Your system does not.

[escape2paradise]

I think quite a few of you are "reaching" as to why this is such a bad idea.  I don't know about other states but in WA if you can't pay child support legitimately, your disabled etc...then they will reduce it to $25 per month.  No need to be a deadbeat if you have a legit reason for not affording a "real" support payment.  

I know of a few "deadbeats" and it's not that they can't afford CS but that they'd have to give up cigarettes and other important things that they just aren't willing to give up.  There is NO excuse for not paying support.  If a CP were to say "sorry I just don't have enough $ to feed you kids this month" they'd be arrested for neglect.  Why should it be any different for a NCP.  CP can't just say I couldn't afford it this month.  It's not an option and it shouldn't be for a NCP either.

I say round'em up anyway you can!

[mistoffolees]

>I think quite a few of you are "reaching" as to why this is
>such a bad idea.  I don't know about other states but in WA if
>you can't pay child support legitimately, your disabled
>etc...then they will reduce it to $25 per month.  No need to
>be a deadbeat if you have a legit reason for not affording a
>"real" support payment.  
>
>I know of a few "deadbeats" and it's not that they can't
>afford CS but that they'd have to give up cigarettes and other
>important things that they just aren't willing to give up.
>There is NO excuse for not paying support.  If a CP were to
>say "sorry I just don't have enough $ to feed you kids this
>month" they'd be arrested for neglect.  Why should it be any
>different for a NCP.  CP can't just say I couldn't afford it
>this month.  It's not an option and it shouldn't be for a NCP
>either.
>
>I say round'em up anyway you can!

I don't have any problem with rounding up deadbeats. There's a judicial system in place for that. Track them down, attach their wages, etc. Send a private detective. Most people can be tracked by their spending if you try hard enough.

The difference is that in the case of the judicial system, the person gets to tell their side of the story and explain why the CS agency might be in error. In this pizza box system, a person is guilty as soon as the CS agency says they're guilty and they don't have a chance to defend themselves. In some cases, they could lose their job over an error in the CS agency.

I just happen to think that's just plain wrong - and I don't think that's reaching.

[gemini3]

Yes, you're right, most states will reduce your child support if you cannot pay legitimately.  The problem is that it can take months for that to happen, and by then you're in arrears.  The system isn't perfect, which is why safegaurds ARE necessary.  

There are plenty of government programs out there for people who find themselves in a tough spot and can't put food on the table.  You can go to the food bank, you can get food stamps.  No one gives you "child support stamps".  You either pay or be labeled as a deadbeat and face criminal prosecution.  If the NCP and CP were still married and someone lost their income, what would they do?  Why should it be any different when there's a divorce?  Why are we dehumaizing NCP's?  No one seems to care what a NCP's situation is - they're regarded as wallets and nothing else in many cases.

I am lucky enough to never have been in a position like this, and hopefully I never will.  But I can see how easily things like this can happen.  I agree that there's no excuse for not supporting your children.  I disagree with the pizza boxes.  

[wysiwyg]

In our case we were ordered to pay arrears, did so for 5 years - cash - every Friday to the courthouse, but because the CS division did not like the court order they froze all our bank accounts and retirement plans and forced a sale on retirment to get all arrears in full.  Now, how does this work?  A Judge signs a court order that has been followed to the penny for 5 years, then the CS division can come along and over ride a court order -tat has been in place adn followed - now this sounds to me like a potnetial pizza box picture even though we followed the courts order.  (BTW arrears were accumulated because of job loss, then it took the judge 3 and 1/2 years to make an order for CS)  And  just food for thought here, my Ex was not ordered to pay one dime of cs to his three kids when I divored him 12 years ago.

[janM]

They know where my son's exgf lives. They contact her, she says she is getting a doctor note for the illness of the week, she calls them and says it will be another week because the info on the note was wrong. The deadline passes. Nothing is done (that we know of). She knows she is facing license suspension and/or MORE jail time (she spent a whole month in jail last summer).

She is now over 11 grand in arrears. After jail last year she worked for a few months while they garnished her. Then quit. They wait from last November till now to do anything. If they are. Enforcement? Ha.

She is not officially a "deadbeat" cause they have an address for her.

[mistoffolees]

>They know where my son's exgf lives. They contact her, she
>says she is getting a doctor note for the illness of the week,
>she calls them and says it will be another week because the
>info on the note was wrong. The deadline passes. Nothing is
>done (that we know of). She knows she is facing license
>suspension and/or MORE jail time (she spent a whole month in
>jail last summer).
>
>She is now over 11 grand in arrears. After jail last year she
>worked for a few months while they garnished her. Then quit.
>They wait from last November till now to do anything. If they
>are. Enforcement? Ha.

They already threw her in jail and garnished her. What do you want them to do - harvest her kidneys?

>
>She is not officially a "deadbeat" cause they have an address
>for her.

If she's willing to spend time in jail, then having her face on a pizza box wouldn't matter to her - which is why I don't think this proposal would do any good.

Since they know where she is, the legal solution (where the person has the right to defend themselves) makes more sense than a one-sided attack (putting them on pizza boxes).

[mistoffolees]

>In our case we were ordered to pay arrears, did so for 5
>years - cash - every Friday to the courthouse, but because the
>CS division did not like the court order they froze all our
>bank accounts and retirement plans and forced a sale on
>retirment to get all arrears in full.  Now, how does this
>work?  A Judge signs a court order that has been followed to
>the penny for 5 years, then the CS division can come along and
>over ride a court order -tat has been in place adn followed -
>now this sounds to me like a potnetial pizza box picture even
>though we followed the courts order.  (BTW arrears were
>accumulated because of job loss, then it took the judge 3 and
>1/2 years to make an order for CS)  And  just food for thought
>here, my Ex was not ordered to pay one dime of cs to his three
>kids when I divored him 12 years ago.

Exactly. That kind of story is far too common for me to feel comfortable with CS being able to notify the world that they believe someone is a deadbeat.

[janM]

>They already threw her in jail and garnished her. What do you
>want them to do - harvest her kidneys?

No, she's such a hypochondriac, she's already had a bunch of stuff removed. Not her kidneys tho...

>If she's willing to spend time in jail, then having her face
>on a pizza box wouldn't matter to her - which is why I don't
>think this proposal would do any good.

I agree.

>Since they know where she is, the legal solution (where the
>person has the right to defend themselves) makes more sense
>than a one-sided attack (putting them on pizza boxes).

I agree with this too. If only CSEA would pursue the legal route. They say they are...but my son has not gotten any notice of a court hearing yet. Maybe she did come up with a doctor note. Then they can drag things out another few months. Court said there was no reason she couldn't work last year. They claim to be un-biased...but if my son was the one paying, they would act swiftly.

I wish I knew how to make parents (and I use that term loosely with her) get, and keep, a job.