What if SS clams up when asked about abuse??

[tmb8076]

I posted yesterday that my husband and I have depositions with BMs attorney on Friday.

Last week, SS12 told my MIL that his stepfather is mean to him, picks on him, and then he is the one in trouble.  Also, SS said he just goes and locks his door to get away from his stepfather.  SS's mom came into his room recently and told him he cannot stay locked in his room to avoid his SF.  He is afraid of this man.  DH told attorney of this yesterday, and the attorney told DH that this must be revealed at the depositions on Friday.

We know from BM's in-laws (they do not like her) that there are a lot of loud fights between BM and her husband.  He cusses and screams at the kids.  There is a lot of name calling.  But I do not believe there is physical abuse, not yet anyway.  

I just told MIL that what she told us must be revealed at the depositions, and she is totally upset.  She said all we have done now is betrayed the trust SS put in her by telling her this.  I explained that our hands are tied.  She got kind of snippy and said, that she knows SS better than I do, and that he will clam up because he is the one that has to live with his mom and SF, and unless we can keep him from them after depositions (we cannot), then he will be in trouble, and he is never going to tell us anything again...

I don't know what else we can do!  

 

[CustodyIQ]

You're not able to testify as to what someone told you another person told them.

Tell your attorney about it, so he can object to such questions on hearsay grounds.

When asked in deposition as to any complaints SS has made, you can say, "I can really only tell you what SS has told me, with any degree of accuracy."

You can also say, "SS told me this in confidence, and I'm very concerned about the damage it can cause if his mother confronts him on this.  I'm very concerned about betraying his trust."

Then, you have it on record, predicting what mother will do.

You can let the attorneys duke it out over your answer.

You'll probably be instructed to answer anyway.

Give the least offensive example and stop.

Attorney will ask for more.

You can say, "There have been a number of conversations, so I'm not sure I can recall all of them right now."

Attorney will ask for more anyway.

Again state your huge concerns.  Keep hammering that.

Ask back if mother would agree to not address the issues with son unless a psychologist is present.

Attorney will probably say no.

But meanwhile, this is ALL being captured on the record.  The same concerns you're listing on this board, you're emphasizing in the depo.

Will you still have to testify to all of it?

Sure, but you're also getting your position heard loud and clear in a deposition transcript.

Maybe this is an approach for your husband, since you say he is less addled than you about the depositions.

But, there's nothing stopping you from attempting something like this.

You're worrying too much about it.  Just tell the kid that you're being dragged into something against your will, and they are going to require you to tell the truth.  Apologize for it, saying how much you know he trusts you.  Ask him to continue to trust you, and you'll always do your best to protect him.

:)

[tmb8076]

Thank you,....that is helpful.

MIL told SS that we may have to tell what we know, and SS got quiet.  He said he will get in trouble. I know he is scared....but we are really stuck.  We told our attorney and he said we must reveal this during depositions on Friday.  I think I am going to tell the attorney we didn't hear it first hand, so we cannot really speak about it...and see what he says.

I wonder if you can get a GAL assigned without having to tell BM through depositions about the incidents that SS is having with SF.

He was really quiet to MIL, and then he said, "Well, he only called me names one time."  I was like ?????  SF called you names?  She didn't say that he elaborated on the name calling incident.  

He also told her that he goes and locks himself in his room to avoid his SF.  BM came in his room and told him he cannot hide in his room to avoid SF.  

What a mess!

Thanks for your reply! I have to have my husband read it.  That and the other good info you gave us on the depositions from my other post!  :-)

[Lawmoe]

Generally, you should not be questioning the child yourself.  If not conducted properly, the interrogation can impair the credibility and validity of the response.  It is better to suggest a proifessional counselor and have one appointed by the court or a GAL to determine what is going on.   Those professionals are mandatory reporter of physical abuse and make compelling witnesses in court.  Putting the child in the middle and making them choose sides is a mistake.

[tmb8076]

Thank you....we didn't talk to him.  The stuff he revealed, he did so to my MIL.   When my MIL told him that his dad and I may have to reveal this information during our depositions (which are today), he got scared.

I am hoping they appoint a GAL to talk to him, but furhter, that his mom and stepdad to not punish him for talking to his grandma (my MIL).

We are sick over it.  

We personally did NOT bring this topic up to my SS.

Thank you for all your help!

[YahYah]

What the heck is worse... this thing coming to a head and being over and done with very soon?  Or living with this for the rest of his childhood?

Based on what is stated in the deposition, you may be able to get the judge to take a look at this sooner rather than later.

Also, can your lawyer request a temporary physical placement with you folks, based on what is stated in the depositions?  It's all evidence, isnt it?  If he's telling the court he fears the return to his home, I don't think they will push the matter - forcing him back there, if he throws a fit and really, truly, doesn't want to return.

What's the mother and stepfather going to do?  Tell him he HAS to return, theyll be upset if he doesn't?  Pop goes the weasel as far as I can see, because they'd have proven his accusations right there.  

If both the MIL *AND* the child say similar things, he's golden.  

We spoke on behalf of my stepson, who was also removed from his mother's care due to abuse/neglect. But we prepared him ahead of time.  It was VERY stressful.  We were up front and completely honest and clean with him.  Told him it was going to he VERY bad if things didn't go the way we planned, but it would go MUCH easier if he was brutally honest.  (he already told the counselor a bunch of things, so he'd gotten things out into the open already before)  He was afraid his mother would cry, yes, but that's normal.  All of those fears and concerns for a parent are ok.  But the bottom line is, your ss's safety and well being are priority.  He has his whole life ahead of him and he needs to experience a normal family and normal household life again.  What he's dealing with isn't normal, at all.

It's also important, I think, for you to reinforce a baseline with him, and that's that if he comes to live with you because of something he said during the court proceedings, or something that was said to help him or to help him feel safer - that he is NOT to blame.  And, that you will always do all you can to make sure his relationship with his mother is as positive as you can help him stabilize/normalize.  

He might feel that he's betraying his mother, and that's all part of the abuse victim mentality.  He doesn't want to betray, he wants to please... he wants to please please please, and if he feels he might upset his mother and/or stepfather - and with no CLEAR statement that he's definitely going ot live with them - yikes, he's going to be VERY apprehensive.

It's basically got to be put to him... "This is do-or-die kiddo". :(  Sorry, but it is.  Abuse is not something parents take lightly, right? and for him to think it's something he should be shameful of is a crime against his childhood.

Now is the time to empower him.

How old is he?  My ss was 9 when he went through this, and to tell you the truth, he didn't have to talk to the judge... he was more than ready, but he didn't have to.  What we had for complaints, which got us temporary custody, and what the counselor said in her deposition, really sealed the deal. But we had ss's teacher and school counselor ready to testify as well, and ss was willing to say things on his own behalf.  

If the child is ready and willing to testify on his own behalf, that's most of your battle right there, and judge's usually don't like to put kids on the stand but I think during proceedings like this, they will.  APprehensively, but they will.

[tmb8076]

I agree with you 100%.  Our attorney told us yesterday that it wasn't enough that he told MIL that he didn't like his stepfather...and that stepfather treated him poorly and even called him names.  That this isn't abuse, it is psychological abuse, but not abuse...He said he didn't think the judge would appoint a GAL based on this alone!  He encouraged us to settle.

DH did....we were very deflated.  It is not over as the final settlement won't be signed off by the judge until 4/19.  But I really feel like the attorneys blew it off!

SS has never told a counselor or ANYONE about this...so we have NO ONE else to back us up!  He has kept it in all of these years.  His mom has been with her husband for 5 years.

SS's mom said SF never calls SS names.  SS is 12.  She said he is the disciplinarian and she has told him to back off before.  That alone, the fact that she admitted to telling SF to back off.....it says a lot to me.

Later, DH talked to SS, and SS had tears in his eyes and said SF calls him names.  DH asked, "Like what, dork, or shithead?"  SS's eyes welled up with tears and he said, "No dad...really bad".

That makes me sick!!

I went at SS, not to get him to talk but to tell him we were here for him and that this was NOT his fault and that he was a good kid, a wonderful kid, and we wanted to do whatever we can to help him so this doesn't become a part of who he is.

He didn't tell me the names he is called, but he said it is all the time, in front of his mom and when his mom isn't there!

Our attorney is blowing us off.  I know SS is scared and I am not sure what he would do if a GAL talked to him, but I have a feeling he would tell the truth.  

SS told me SF doesn't hit him, which is good I guess...but this other stuff is tearing him up!  And it feels like we can do nothing!  If we don't have our attorney behind us...where do we turn??  

SS knows this is not normal.  I told him that though his dad and I get mad at our other two kids we never call them names...we don't call eachother names, and there has never been an instance that I have called SS a name.

He was crying, I was crying....I just feel so badly for him.  I was going to try and talk to him a little bit more today to see if I could get some specifics.  I just don't know what to do.

[YahYah]

that's the bottom line.

He's probably ashamed of the names his stepfather has called him and he probably feels embarassed rather than ... empowered that this adult man is in the wrong.

He could nail this guy's balls to the wall, but he's too busy being defensive.

If he truly feels that this man is treating him BADLY, he'll talk.

My ss was 9 when it all came to a head.  He's 12 now.  He didn't talk, at all, for the longest time.  One counselor we took him to told us that he could see ss had a LOT of things bottled up and said he's an "angry child".  To us, he didn't look angry or anything so I asked the counselor "what makes you say that?" and he said, for starters "just the way he walks, and holds his body..." I had no idea you could tell that much from a person's walk.  He told us that ss had a LOT bottled up inside him and he was clamped up like a clam - he wasn't going to tell ANYONE and this counselor knew it.

When ss started living with us %50 of the time, he started feeling safer, like maybe we could make a difference for him, and then he started expressing himself.  But that was almost assuredly because he was living with us %50 of the time.  If it was just every other weekend, he'd still be living with his abusive mother and her abusive lover.

It's hard.  It's NOT easy.  It's NOT going to get any easier, but this kid needs to talk.  He needs to be assured that you are going to help him the best you can, and you're going to do anything and everything you can to make sure he's feeling safe and secure in his home and if that means MAJOR unforseen changes in the future, then it's a risk you're all willing to take for him, but unfortunately, he needs to be the one to head up his own crusade.  

If he keeps this inside too long, it could have a deeper impact on his sense of self, and self-esteem later on in his life.  Every year is important, but the older he gets and the more abuse he lives through - it's more significant the longer he has to deal with it.

And psychological abuse IS abuse, it's just more difficult to prove.  MUCH more difficult to prove.

The thing that got my ss an emergency protection from abuse order against his mother was his statement to me that he was afraid to go home and if he was forced to do so, he'd run away.  It was the dead of winter and he was threatening to try and run to our house, which was in another town.  He'd have never made it.

He also told his teacher that, the same day and she sent him to the school counselor and he told her his plan.

There were other issues of emotional abuse, physical abuse, name calling, berating statements, crude remarks by his mother and her lover - and also, other physical forms of abuse (like squirting dish soap in his mouth for being mouthy, or locking him in his room, with the lock on the OUTSIDE of the door, for hours...)

But that statement that he was willing to put himself into harm's way to escape that household was what got big attention.  

We were pressed to make a list of all the past incidents that we'd been made aware of, either personally, or by ss telling us - and his mother told us some things she'd done to him as well.  We made a huge list of about 21 events over the course of the past few years.  The court requires at LEAST 3 examples of why the restraining order should be signed by the judge.  We had 21 or so, and because I document EVERYTHING, we had them time stamped and dated.  

The judge signed it, no questions asked.

But my ss had had enough by that point too.  He was ready to release - to let loose.  Not angry so much as ... he wanted stuff to change and knew we'd help him.  He wasn't angry, and he WAS sad he was going to hurt his mother's feelings, but he told us he just couldn't do this any more, he didn't know what else to do.  We were all in counseling together for months and she just refused to stop doing the thigns she was doing to him, AND she was pressing him harder and harder to turn on US so he'd tell US "I want to go live wiht my mom full time now and just visit you on the weekends".  When he wouldn't do that for her, she really started treating him like an outsider in his own home.  It drove him farther and farther apart.  She was surely hoping he'd try and cling to her closer and with a tighter grip, but it just drove him farther and farther from her until he busted at the seams.

If your ss is keeping all that in :(  He's going to implode... or explode... dunno which, but none of it's good.

I also feel your sense of "The time is NOW!"  And every moment is the right time.  It would be convenient if he followed the timeline of the legal battle ;)  but he probably won't.  My ss didn't either, and to be honest with you, your ss's mother is probably HIGH on her guard right now for anything of the sort as far as that goes.  Your ss knows his mom, he lives there, he lives with her - if there's one thing we had to do with ss is give him credit that he lived in a war zone at times, and it was hard on us, but holy moly, it HAD to be rough on him.  When he'd had it up to his eyebrows he'd scream at his mother that he wanted to go live with us, and that just made her IRATE, even MORE so... not a good scene.

He'll talk when he's ready, but he has to know that every moment is the right moment.  The things that have happened to him he does not deserve.  Life doesnt have to be perfect, and, yes, kids should be reprimanded for doing inappropriate things, but name calling?  NOT OK!  Berating!?  NOT OK.  He is %100 RIGHT to feel uncomfortable around his stepfather, AND his mother because SHE should be protecting him from that sort of treatment!

[tmb8076]

Thank you so much for taking the time to type all of that!  I read every word and really appreciate it!!  :-)

We are working on SS...that is what we have to do.  

I talked to him, hugged him and told him this was not his fault, that his SF was wrong, and though I know his mom loves him, she is not taking care of him on this.  He knows it.  I said it in the most loving way possible.  

I can see that he feels closer to me already.  

I am going to look to getting some counseling for him...but NO WAY will his mother approve this, so I have to figure out what our options are.  We can go as a family, and then he can just come along as part of our family....but I have to do something for him.

He said he knows it isn't right, what his SF is doing.

I tried to help him understand by explaining to him that his SF was raised this same way.  I have had the luxury getting to know  his SF's mom...she told me that her husband BEAT her and bad mouthed the kids, just as he is now doing to my SS.  

Except in this house....SS's mom is the one doing the hitting.  Her husband is the mental abuser.

Poor kid....he knows we are here for him, and I told him we need to know when things are bad for him...that we are not going to run and tell his mom and SF...but we are going to help him through it.

I know he appreciated that and I think a huge weight was lifted off of his shoulders knowing that he can talk to us about this now.  He is 12-1/2.  The magic age here is 14....he has 1-1/2 years to go....and then he will be able to choose, and I know where he will chose to be....but the important thing is that we get him help.

I told him I didn't want this to become a part of who he is, and thankfully he sees how a NORMAL couple functions in his dad and me.  He sees that we can disagree, and we can even pout and get angry with oneantoher, but we DO NOT CALL NAMES!  We do not hit....heck, we don't even scream even though sometimes I would like to!

He sees that even though my daughter 5, and my son 2, are bad at times, I don't call them little bastards.   I don't beat them, though sometimes I feel like it!!  ;-)

He is a good kid, he is a smart kid, and thankfully, the first 5 years of his life, were more on the normal side....living with his mom at his grandma's house, where he only had to see his mother throw these screaming fits, but he wasn't always treated this way.

Thank you so much for talking to me about this..it helps...and I know we need to help him.  And we will!  

Tina