Looking for advice from those of you that have been down this path

[witzend]

I am sure my story has many similarities to others - even though it is entirely unique too. I am working extremely hard to separate my emotional issues regarding my marriage from my parenting goals and concerns... but for over ten years - these have been completely entanged, so it's all new to me.

I am looking for 100% blunt feedback. I'll take what rings true and not be overly hurt by what seems off.

My situation:

- Together 12 years

- Married 10 years

- Wife had affair, moved out late last year

- She took the kids 3 to 4 nights a week (her choice) - I wanted them 7 nights

- She filed one month after moving out

- She started keeping the kids 4 or 5 nights when I asked for custody - admits that it was because she was worried she would lose child support

- We live in Illinois

- I have been paying ALL of her expenses

- She has been spending like crazy on top of the expenses I have been paying

- She does not work, has no skills, job history - feels it is my fault; i.e. that I have held her back; She enrolled in part time classes this year;

- I have a just barely over 6 figure income - I feel I have always supported my wife with her working and going to school - I feel she hasn't wanted to work

- I have serious concerns about her mental health - this issue is a HUGE problem for me - and a very mixed bag.

* She has several different documented diagnosis, stopped medications on her own, has seen a psychologist for five years, seemed incredibly unstable when she started the affair and suddenly moved out - her whole personality flipped over night, none of her friends could make sense of it, her family was thrown... this was not a well planned escape from a miserable marriage... this was misery building up silently and exploding in an extremely unhealthy and destructive way.

* Does that make her "unfit" as a mom? Who can judge?

> Do I have concerns - YES.
> Is that normal for a dad going through divorce? YES.
> Has she ever endangered the children? YES - clearly... while we were married.
> Since we have been separated? Not so clearly.
> Do I worry she will go off the deep end again somewhere down the road? Yes
> Is that justification for seeking sole custody? Doesn't seem to be the case.

Here's the deal... I love her. I am angry. I feel betrayed. But I still love her. I am learning I have codependency issues. I don't always know what to believe.

We are in court ordered mediation now to discuss custody. We both have attorneys also.

Here's what mediation has boiled down to - she is fine with a 50/50 joint custody arrangement so long as I give her full child support plus spousal maintenance.

I am fine with giving her money - but don't want to be walked all over, AND want to ensure I am looking out for the kids best interests financially, since I have zero confidence my wife can manage the money. She continues to drive us deeper and deeper into debt showing no signs of ownership or responsibility.

We were court ordered to go into mediation to settle the custody problem only. We were specifically not supposed to talk about money.

How then is it fair that both my wife and the mediator have put the money issue up front and center?

If she will agree to 50/50 so long as she is named primary, that will guarantee her some amount of child support. Isn't it reasonable to expect that we should be able to hammer out that agreement first - and talk about money later?

My wife has openly stated that this is about money to her. I recognize that this doesn't mean she doesn't love the kids. She just feels threatened - and believes it is my responsibility to pay for her and the kids to live comfortably while she does not have to work. Meanwhile, I am not sure I can cover my bills or even keep the marital home for very long.

On the one hand - I want to take the 50/50 deal while I can so I can hold onto as many legal rights with my children as possible.

On the other hand, this just feels like more evidence that she is not really interested in the kids best interests. How can she say one minute - I think it is best for the kids to be with each parent an equal number of days and nights... and then say, WHOA, wait a minute... if you don't give me enough money, THEN I think it is best for the kids to be with their dad only every other weekend?

Is this just the way the cookie crumbles? It's all making me feel kind of sick inside. I don't want to be right.... I just want to do the best job I can do for my kids...

I recognize my own weaknesses - which is that I am not a good negotiator, lack self-esteem, and have let my wife walk all over me for so long that I am having a hard time changing the momentum all at once.  These are all my problems to fix... I am not a victim and I don't feel sorry for myself - I am just looking for advice and guidance to assist my thought processes. And I fully recognize that there is a LOT of wisdom out there from those of you that have been through this phase.

Question: Should I just take the 50/50 and go down the money path to get it as quickly as possible - so long as I spell everything out in a rigorous parenting agreement?

Question: Is the mediator doing an OK job if she supports my wife in this clear blackmailing effort? Or is that my place alone to point it out?

Am I missing anything obvious here?

If it seems that I waffle on the mental health issue - I do. My wife has told me since the day she left that "all men think their wives are crazy when they get dumped". So, let's just say that hearing that constant message everywhere I go has certainly undermined my convictions. I was considering a custody evaluation - but am just not sure I can handle the costs. Now I am just trusting my wife's psychologist and my son's therapist to help keep an eye on things.

Me trying to figure out what's going on inside my wife's head has proven to be a no win situation.

Sorry this is so long - thanks for reading!

[mistoffolees]

>I am sure my story has many similarities to others - even
>though it is entirely unique too. I am working extremely hard
>to separate my emotional issues regarding my marriage from my
>parenting goals and concerns... but for over ten years - these
>have been completely entanged, so it's all new to me.
>
>I am looking for 100% blunt feedback. I'll take what rings
>true and not be overly hurt by what seems off.
>
>My situation:
>
>- Together 12 years
>
>- Married 10 years
>
>- Wife had affair, moved out late last year
>
>- She took the kids 3 to 4 nights a week (her choice) - I
>wanted them 7 nights
>
>- She filed one month after moving out
>
>- She started keeping the kids 4 or 5 nights when I asked for
>custody - admits that it was because she was worried she would
>lose child support
>
>- We live in Illinois
>
>- I have been paying ALL of her expenses
>
>- She has been spending like crazy on top of the expenses I
>have been paying
>
>- She does not work, has no skills, job history - feels it is
>my fault; i.e. that I have held her back; She enrolled in part
>time classes this year;

Actually, that's not much of an excuse. Many people get jobs with minimal skills and many more go back to school to get those skills. In any event, the court will almost certainly impute income at minimum wage.

>
>- I have a just barely over 6 figure income - I feel I have
>always supported my wife with her working and going to school
>- I feel she hasn't wanted to work
>
>- I have serious concerns about her mental health - this issue
>is a HUGE problem for me - and a very mixed bag.
>
>* She has several different documented diagnosis, stopped
>medications on her own, has seen a psychologist for five
>years, seemed incredibly unstable when she started the affair
>and suddenly moved out - her whole personality flipped over
>night, none of her friends could make sense of it, her family
>was thrown... this was not a well planned escape from a
>miserable marriage... this was misery building up silently and
>exploding in an extremely unhealthy and destructive way.
>
>* Does that make her "unfit" as a mom? Who can judge?

The person who can judge (at least as far as the legal system is concerned) is a custody evaluation. In your position, I would file for custody and ask for a custody evaluation to do a thorough investigation of both parties. The more of the above you can prove, the better your chances of winning.

>
>> Do I have concerns - YES.
>> Is that normal for a dad going through divorce? YES.
>> Has she ever endangered the children? YES - clearly... while
>we were married.
>> Since we have been separated? Not so clearly.
>> Do I worry she will go off the deep end again somewhere down
>the road? Yes
>> Is that justification for seeking sole custody? Doesn't seem
>to be the case.
>
>Here's the deal... I love her. I am angry. I feel betrayed.
>But I still love her. I am learning I have codependency
>issues. I don't always know what to believe.

Since you want blunt advice, I'll say 'get over it'. Time to move on with your life.

>
>We are in court ordered mediation now to discuss custody. We
>both have attorneys also.
>
>Here's what mediation has boiled down to - she is fine with a
>50/50 joint custody arrangement so long as I give her full
>child support plus spousal maintenance.

That's not the way it works, at least in my state.

Child support is calculated on the basis of a formula. While she has no income now, the court will assume that she can get at least a minimum wage job unless health reasons preclude it. They will then calculate the amount of support based on the difference in your incomes AND the number of days at each parent's house. Even with 50:50, you're still going to pay something because of the difference in your incomes, but not 'full' child support. I would say that you'll agree to pay whatever the state guidelines say (which isn't giving anything up because you're going to have to pay that, anyway).

Spousal support - varies quite a bit by location. IIRC, only about 5% of divorces have any spousal support. Your attorney will have to fill you in on what's appropriate in your area. Still, it's probably going to be less than she thinks if she's claiming 'full spousal support'.

By the way, you're better off not talking about 'joint custody' since it leads to confusion. Make sure you spell out whether you're referring to legal or physical custody every time it comes up. In your situation, joint legal custody should be a no-brainer (you might even consider sole legal if your attorney thinks you can prove she's unfit). Joint physical also seems quite reasonable.

>
>I am fine with giving her money - but don't want to be walked
>all over, AND want to ensure I am looking out for the kids
>best interests financially, since I have zero confidence my
>wife can manage the money. She continues to drive us deeper
>and deeper into debt showing no signs of ownership or
>responsibility.

This is one of the more difficult lessons I've learned. I also didn't mind giving my stbx money, but it turns out it's a black hole. No matter how much I gave her, it was never enough. To date, she's received 64% of our disposable income and she says I'm starving her. You need to make sure that you take care of yourself, as well as doing what's fair. In the end, what's best for the kids is the determining factor. Throwing money down a black hole doesn't help the kids.

>
>We were court ordered to go into mediation to settle the
>custody problem only. We were specifically not supposed to
>talk about money.
>
>How then is it fair that both my wife and the mediator have
>put the money issue up front and center?

It isn't. So what are you going to do? You can either walk out of mediation on the grounds that they refuse to stick to the topic or you can go ahead and mediate all issues.

In the end, you're going to have to resolve financial issues, too. Since mediation is probably less expensive than litigation, it probably doesn't hurt.

>
>If she will agree to 50/50 so long as she is named primary,
>that will guarantee her some amount of child support. Isn't it
>reasonable to expect that we should be able to hammer out that
>agreement first - and talk about money later?

Whether I think it's reasonable or not doesn't matter. You have to reach an agreement with her. Even if you think she's unreasonable, you either have to choose to mediate or walk out. Personally, I'd go ahead with the mediation.

You haven't mentioned the mediator's role in this. Why isn't he/she keeping it on topic? I would suggest that your attorney needs to remind him/her of the court order and ask to keep the discussion on topic. If your ex and her attorney try to go off topic, the mediator should be the one to bring them back on topic, not you.

>
>My wife has openly stated that this is about money to her. I
>recognize that this doesn't mean she doesn't love the kids.
>She just feels threatened - and believes it is my
>responsibility to pay for her and the kids to live comfortably
>while she does not have to work. Meanwhile, I am not sure I
>can cover my bills or even keep the marital home for very
>long.

She needs to understand that she isn't going to get everything she wishes. If you're keeping the marital home, she doesn't have much to complain about (assuming that she gets her share of the home's value). With a minimum wage job, court ordered child support, and reasonable living expenses, she'll get by. She should be focusing on picking up her own end of the responsiblities - but you can't control that.

What you CAN control is doing what's reasonable and not accepting her unlimited demands.

>
>On the one hand - I want to take the 50/50 deal while I can so
>I can hold onto as many legal rights with my children as
>possible.

The problem with this is that even if you do it your way (mediate custody first) and if you take the 50:50 deal and the discussion breaks down later over money, she can still change her mind on the custody. Until the final divorce decree is signed by the judge, anything and everything is subject to change.

You need to get ALL issues resolved ASAP - which is why I wouldn't complain too much about resolving money issues in mediation.

BTW, ask your attorney about recording conversations in your state. If you can get her on tape saying that it's all about money, it will help your case.

>
>On the other hand, this just feels like more evidence that she
>is not really interested in the kids best interests. How can
>she say one minute - I think it is best for the kids to be
>with each parent an equal number of days and nights... and
>then say, WHOA, wait a minute... if you don't give me enough
>money, THEN I think it is best for the kids to be with their
>dad only every other weekend?

She can't reasonably take that position. But unless you can prove she said it (either with a recording or adult witnesses, it never happened as far as the court is concerned).

>
>Is this just the way the cookie crumbles? It's all making me
>feel kind of sick inside. I don't want to be right.... I just
>want to do the best job I can do for my kids...

Then stick to your guns.

>
>I recognize my own weaknesses - which is that I am not a good
>negotiator, lack self-esteem, and have let my wife walk all
>over me for so long that I am having a hard time changing the
>momentum all at once.  These are all my problems to fix... I
>am not a victim and I don't feel sorry for myself - I am just
>looking for advice and guidance to assist my thought
>processes. And I fully recognize that there is a LOT of wisdom
>out there from those of you that have been through this
>phase.
>
>Question: Should I just take the 50/50 and go down the money
>path to get it as quickly as possible - so long as I spell
>everything out in a rigorous parenting agreement?

Only you can answer that. If you honestly think she's a danger to the kids, then you should fight for sole custody. If you think she's loony, but no danger to anyone, then you might settle for 50:50. Or, you may decide that she's not really crazy, just 'different'.

Eventually, you need to resolve ALL issues and get a solid parenting agreement. Since she's so insistent that they be tied together, you're probably stuck with that.

>
>Question: Is the mediator doing an OK job if she supports my
>wife in this clear blackmailing effort? Or is that my place
>alone to point it out?

If you have a court order that says you're only supposed to be mediating custody and not financial issues and the mediator allows her to keep bringing financial issues up, then the mediator's not doing his / her job. I would bring it up very strongly in your next session with the mediator (during the time your ex isn't there).

>
>Am I missing anything obvious here?
>
>If it seems that I waffle on the mental health issue - I do.
>My wife has told me since the day she left that "all men think
>their wives are crazy when they get dumped". So, let's just
>say that hearing that constant message everywhere I go has
>certainly undermined my convictions. I was considering a
>custody evaluation - but am just not sure I can handle the
>costs. Now I am just trusting my wife's psychologist and my
>son's therapist to help keep an eye on things.

My custody evaluation cost $2,500. That's a significant amount of money, but it's far less than a bad decision will cost you in the long run.

If you're really concerned about her mental health, you should ask for a custody evaluation. Trying to get the court to decide who is fit and who is unfit will be far more expensive - particularly since they will  order a custody evaluation anyway.

No one else can tell you whether she's fit or not. You have to decide if it's worth the battle.

And her statement that all men think their wives are crazy is nonsense.

>
>Me trying to figure out what's going on inside my wife's head
>has proven to be a no win situation.
>
>Sorry this is so long - thanks for reading!

[witzend]

Thank You!

All very sound and consistent advice. I think I am my own worst enemy here - overthinking everything and still treating my "soon to be ex" as if she is still my wife.

I am working on it all... all the time.

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

[Savant]

In some ways your case is the opposite of mine, while in many important ways it is the same.  I can relate to your problem of being emotionally confused and wondering about your own codependency.  The fact is that this sort of thing IS emotionally confusing and causes a lot of doubt in anyone who defined themselves as a good spouse/father and now faces the identity crisis of having that all turned upside down and shredded.

All I can tell you is what I tried to do and what I think worked for me.  

-Get some books!  Read all you can- I know your time is crucial right now and finding time to read can be difficult but at least you are here so I know you're searching for more information and help.

-One thing I didn't do until it was at a critical point was to try and find a way to stay focused.  Relaxation techniques can take as little as 1/2 hour a day and will help you keep your mind focused more clearly.

-Repeat this mantra to yourself; It's not about me, it's not about her, it's about the kids.  This will allow you to do what you know you have to do even though you don't want to do it (such as making her angry by asking for an evaluation).  Try to view everything through this lense and it will help you make decisions easier.

As for the particular issues, I can't really advise you one way or the other except to say that I would try to do something about the mediator.  If the mediator isn't mediating then there is a problem.  I wonder if you could find another mediator to be present as well.  In my state there is a mediation program where 2 mediators are present, a man and a woman, to help prevent any concerns about "gender bias".  They are not advocates, they don't take sides- they are just there to make sure that both sides are equally represented.  Also, you might want to think about deciding ahead of time what your bottom-line, not-up-for-consideration limits are before going into mediation.  That way when the pressure is on, you won't worry about making concessions you'll regret later on.  Don't worry about her getting mad when you stick to your guns- remember the mantra above!

[mango]

Hi,

I just want to say that our case 9 years ago was a 50/50 case. No child support order. The school district was the big argument. Ended up they named the "best school" at that time in the plan, not the best suited parent. Whomever happened to live in that district was defaulted the school parent. This was the dad at the time. But few years later both parents moved. So, again, the school district was on the table. Still no support order.

We agreed to BM having it this time. But, she did not play fair. She took, took took. Never shared school information, hide school functions from us, tried to make it appear as if we were uninvolved, etc. This went on and on as it was her plan to make him look bad so she could file for sole.

He worked very hard to go around her and keep strong ties with the school teachers, principals, counselors. Her legal attempts FAILED. But it was an uphill battle for dad.

My point is HOLD onto that school district if you can. That is you best strength as a parent. A parent who I'm sure would be willing to share papers, and be fair. Schools don't like to get involved in court stuff, and are not the best with forwarding grades & info to the NR. Soon you become an the invisible, inferior parent. Especially if BM has no job and nothing better to do but hang out at the school and bad-mouth the dad. (Ours did).

Not only that, once she has the school designation, she can MOVE. Since she is school parent she can move far, too.

Offer your school district, and pay her support also. One thing I know also, you can write your OWN papers. You do not need a "formula" or anyone else to tell you what to pay or what to write in your plan. You can come up with a number to please her, and write it down. Once you have the district, you can always have the child support re-evaluated - later. But the district is hard to change.

Good luck. Seems like you are a nice guy, and I know where nice guys end up.

[evdiv69]

I Am Going to be fully BLUNT!!!! You NEED TO GO FOR FULL CUSTODY!!!! nOT 50/50 as you proposed... I am in about the same situation with my EX... She is reaming me for the child support because she refuses to get a job and supplort her children... Find enough DIRT on her that you can... Which shouldn't be too hard considering the facts that you posted... Build a strong case against her!!!

[backwardsbike]

Hello!

I felt the need to respond to your thread.  i am non custodial- have been for 7 years.  My NC kids are 14 and the other, a son will be 18 in a few days. I am also remarried with two more children to support.

We shared custody for the first three years.  it was a constant battle.  My X wanted everything  X's own way.  We were in mdciation thos first three years.  ThenI decided I didn't want to be bothered with trying to deal with a very rigid , entitled X.  I asked for a custody evalaution and endedup a noncustodial MOM.  That's right, i am the mom.

Now I know there is a sterotype that if a woman losses custody she deserved it and must surely be unfit- but that is not so in all cases.  i am a nurse, ahve been a psych nurse for 25 years, vclean criminal record, clean child abuse record, had to get a pscyh eval which came back that i am not only  NOT insane but high functioning as an individual.  My X had the court beleiveing thast I am crackers!

I am now disabled but still pay guidleline chidl support becasue Ihave  chosen to to back to school instead of collecting disability.  i am a maser's candidate in counsleing with a 4.0 average!  I am also a certifed parent educator wwhcih means that I am certifed to go into othe rpeople's homes to provide psychoeducational counsleing with regard to parenting issues.  yet, i am non custodial.

My X mkes 70K a year- I qualify for food stamps and yet he gets guideline support due to my deseire to pull myslef up by the boot straps and not take SS disabiltiy- I'm only 45 years old.

My NC kids are PAs'ed beyond beleife adn it really got bad after X won the custody eval. He won becasue he has more money and my second husband has a mental health diagnossi.  My X has parlayed thatinto $$$$ in his pocket.  obviosuly if my Dh's condition was a concern we woudln't have custody of our own children seeing as how X turned us in twice to CYS becasue my Dh went to thehospital for medication adjustments.  Both times CYS said we had no issues and didnot require services.

My advice to you is to try to make it work in mediation.  You at least have some control over the outcome in mediation. if a court order exsits that prohibits talk of any issue not custody related, then enforce it.  If necessary get an unbiased mediator.

IMHO, its easier to replace abiasedmedaitor than toovercome a poor custody eval which may well be based solely on whether or not the evalautor likes you.

[ezmark]

How familiar your story is.

My STBX leach is 44 with B.S. in advert. design. Hasn't worked in 9 yrs. Kids 9 & 10. Mentally unstable, couldn't keep min wage jobs and refuses to even try. I know the constant abuse you suffer and the shell of yourself you are now trying to salvage. When you finally speak up for yourself the evil comes forth from her eh. Obviously this type of person has a good ability to disguise or we wouldn't be in this position, one can only hope their next victim shows up soon.

There needs to be an education for men before marriage as to the legal ramifications so prenups become the norm, and I can't seem to find resources in Florida for lobbying changes for father's rights.

Yes the kids are her meal ticket, and her badge and her weapon. She will pander and spoil them if it helps her PAS, or damage their psyche if  it helps her. That is what I mean by evil. For the opportunity to offer the kids an alternative to becoming like that, or worse yet a victim of that like you are, I plan to fight her for sole or as much custody as possible regardless of the cost to me. I helped bring those kids into this world and will not abandon them, I trust God will sort it out in the end.

Be very careful!!! I can only tell you that my leach will do ANYTHING to avoid supporting herself and her parents have created her sense of entitlement by spoiling her. I bought a pocket recorder and inform her it is on every time I enter her presence to defend myself from her false allegations to police.

Since I only net 43K there is not enough money for me to live on CS let alone she wants as much as she can get from assets and SS. I pray I get a judge that will impute income to the leach so that I have enough to live and she has to work and the kids have enough from each of us to live decently. I'm in Florida so I've read all sorts of horror stories, mostly from working dads.

Please post what happens in your court case.

[lilywhite]

Actually you're wrong.  In Illinois the court doesn't care how much the custodial parent makes.  The child support formula is a straight percentage of the noncustodial parent's income minus union dues, taxes, social security, health insurance (if the noncustodial parent is paying for the child's health insurance), and mandatory retirement.  If you have one child it's 20%, two 28%, three 32%...  It makes no difference how much the other parent makes.

Also it doesn't matter what the time percentage is.  As long as one parent has the child the majority of the time, the other parent is going to pay child support.  

I was in court once with two parents who got along well but didn't want to be  married.  They had filed pro se.  The judge asked which one was the custodial parent.  They said that they were both custodial parents.  The judge said that he had to declare one the custodial parent, and he had to order child support.  He said that the custodial parent could reimburse the noncustodial parent if he or she wanted, but he had to order it.  They picked on as the custodial parent, and the judge ordered child support.  He asked for the other parents pay stubs, and determined what 28% was and ordered it.

Also Illinois now orders medical support along with the child support, and day care if the children are in day care.  It also can order college support or not, but the parent or child can go back to the noncustodial parent at the time the child is ready for college and ask for it.

[mistoffolees]

>Actually you're wrong.  In Illinois the court doesn't care
>how much the custodial parent makes.  The child support
>formula is a straight percentage of the noncustodial parent's
>income minus union dues, taxes, social security, health
>insurance (if the noncustodial parent is paying for the
>child's health insurance), and mandatory retirement.  If you
>have one child it's 20%, two 28%, three 32%...  It makes no
>difference how much the other parent makes.
>
>Also it doesn't matter what the time percentage is.  As long
>as one parent has the child the majority of the time, the
>other parent is going to pay child support.  

Actually, I'm not wrong. I stated the conditions that apply in my state. Clearly this is something that varies from state to state - and for once, OK appears to be very reasonable and progressive.

In the case of 50:50 shared physical custody with two parents who make the same amount of money, child support is $0 (it might be $1 for technical reasons, but it's set at essentially zero by our formula). It's also possible with our formula for the CP to pay support to the NCP (if the NCP has a large amount of parenting time and the salaries are very different) although this isn't common.

I'm glad I don't live in IL.