Can I get joint custody without a lawyer??

[pablohoney]

Hello,  I have a 16 month old daughter that I had out of wedlock. Things are not going to work out with the babys mother and I and I want to file for Joint Custody of my daughter.   She tells me I have no hope because mothers have all the rights but I want to know what my chances are especially without a lawyer, I can't afford one right now.  Your help would be greatly appreciated.  Thank you,  Mark

[Kitty C.]

Without an atty., I'd say your chances are slim to none.  Especially if she has an atty.  The best advice I can give you is to beg, borrow, or do whatever to get the money to pay for an atty.  There's no way you can file the paperwork or respond to petitions unless you either have a layman's education in family law or an an atty. yourself.  Don't screw with your child's future..........get an atty. NOW.

[John-J-Jay]

Kitty your post is not accurate. For example in Texas joint custody is a given. You have to be a dead beat not to have joint custody. Joint custody is not 50/50 shared time. Joint Custody gives each parent the right to make decisions in the childs life.

[Kitty C.]

First, joint PHYSICAL custody isn't 'automatic' in ANY state that I know of.  Maybe joint LEGAL is, but that's a whole other ballgame.

What I'm talking about is physically going to court....unless one is up to speed on what documents to file, how to answer petitions, and deal with a judge in a manner that they won't degrade, you don't really stand a chance.  Even if it's a 'simple' case, I wouldn't try it without an atty.  Things can have a tendency to go south and you're left holding the bag and your kids end up the losers.  So, unless you know how to navigate through the legal system and are thoroughly familiar with it (basically practicing law without a license), I would strongly recommend getting an atty.

Besides, many judges frown on plaintiffs or defendants who try to represent themselves.........if you want the best possible outcome, don't cut yourself short from the get-go.

[janM]

Kitty is right, having a lawyer is best.

Since you are not married, you'll need to file for paternity, joint custody and child support. Include in your filing a proposed parenting plan.

Some states default to a restricted schedule until the child is about 2 years old. So unless mom agrees to more time, you might not get that much at first.

Have you been sharing parenting duties? Taken her to checkups, etc?

Call your local court house to see if there is something like a "paternity packet" you can file yourself.

It wouldn't hurt to take a CPR/first aid class, and maybe a parenting class too.

[clevergirl17]

I'm sorry, but I completely disagree. My fiance and I fought a highly contested custody battle for his three kids. His ex had a lawyer and she still lost the court battle (she was a terrible lawyer, but still. My fiance and I have no law background whatsoever and represented ourselves). We now have fifty-fifty custody, with a week on week off schedule.

If you educate yourself on the court process and do everything by the book (proper service, correct forms, timely filings) there's no reason that you can't rep yourself. Quite frankly it doesn't seem very helpful to tell a guy who's already worried about not being able to see his kid, and who's stressed out about the expense of hiring a lawyer, that he's an idiot to even try and attempt to wade through the system on his own.

Just my two cents.

[Kitty C.]

You happened to get a judge who didn't automatically discount your fiance because he was representing himself.  Also, it's apparent that the state your fiance dealt with had everything in forms.........many DON'T.  Did he ever have to do a complete pleading?  This is not a form, but a document (petition, service, summons, etc.) that is not fill-in-the-blank.  You have to know how the court wants it worded and if you leave anything out or it is not to their standards, they will not acknowledge it.  If you are not versed in law, it's almost impossible to do a pleading from scratch.

I strongly recommended getting an atty. because the OP WAS stressed out about it.  If he knows nothing of the law and would have to research everything just to get him to the courtroom, Lord knows how long it would take to move forward with his case.  Some states require responses in a certain amount of time.  What if he doesn't have the time to do the research and can't get something done?  He's screwed.  The courts have no mercy for pro se plaintiffs or defendents.  Better that he hire an atty. who knows what needs to be done, how it needs to be done, and when then to have something major screw up midstream and he loses his kids.  

Plus, we have no way of knowing whether the BM in this case has an atty. or if the one she has is the best in the area.  Attys. like to eat pro se defendants for lunch, theoretically speaking.  I'd hate to go into court alone, just to find the other parent has retained the most cut-throat atty. in town.

Like I said, your fiance got EXTREMELY lucky.  In family court, attys. are necessary evils and defending yourself is like playing Russian roulette.  Personally, my family is too important to me to take that chance.

[clevergirl17]

I take offense to your above statement. We worked hard to do what we did and the end result was that we got the kids. Yes, the forms in California are access-ready (Declaration of Compliance with a Court Order, Request for Modification of Visitation, Contempt of Court, etc.), but we did have to read up in order to get the wording and language to a point where the court would accept it. And it does take time to get through the court system, whether you have an attorney or not, that's just the way the system works. You can't simply tell someone to get an attorney when they're specifically concerned about the costs. Of course there's price on family, but many people don't have the money, plain and simple. I know of cases where the fathers (or mothers!) have spent thousands and ended up with nothing. Try coupling that with paying CS and see how much of an attorney you can even afford.

And as I stated above, this was not simply a matter of "luck" so much as hard work. We had to deal with two SEPARATE judges throughout the duration of the long-cause hearing. Surely you wouldn't suggest that we happened to get luck, twice in a row, in the same court system, with two completely different judges.

If the parent can afford an attorney, then by all mean, he should look into hiring one. If nothing else, it's a lot less stress to have someone who's well-versed (theoretically) in the law to wade through the system for you. But please refrain from making such general statements or from assuming that the only way to win if you represent yourself is if you, as you put it, get lucky. It's not easy, but you can represent yourself in court and win. I know because that's exactly what we did.

[Kitty C.]

Well, it's a good thing you are in CA.  Here in Iowa, there are NO forms, it is all by pleadings.  Yeah, I still say your fiance got lucky, even with 2 judges.  And he got lucky because the BM had a lousy atty.  I would never tell anyone that it can be done based upon ONE person's experience.  That's just plain negligent.

Maybe the OP has the time and inclination to do the research and the state he lives in has ALL the forms that can be used.  And maybe the BM in this case either has a lousy atty. or none at all.  And maybe the courts in that jurisdiction don't discriminate against pro se litigants.  If that's the case, I would tell him to try for it.  But you change ANY of those above factors and you're playing Russian roulette with your kids' future.

I still stand by my original statement, since every case and situation is different.  I would never base family court advice on one person's experience, but rather on what is seen across the board as a whole.  I'm glad your fiance was able to get by by representing himself....that just means more money he can spend on his child, whether it be now of maybe for a college education.  But in the 10+ years I've been on this site, I've heard of way too many horror stories of pro se litigants losing it all:  their families, their money, and their hope.  I could not in good conscious tell anyone, especially in the situation that was presented by the OP, to even try do it on their own.  There's a lifetime at stake here.

[clevergirl17]

Although I hesitate to stray off topic anymore than I already have, I do feel the need to reiterate that you are confusing luck with work. And I agree that I would never tell someone that they should follow the exact same path that we did, however, it most certainly is an option to go through the court system by yourself.

I too have heard the horror stories of folks trying to wade through the system on their own, but I've also known others BESIDES my fiance and I who were able to successfully represent themselves. This is not merely something that WE were able to do, but something that has been done by others as well, and while all but one occurred in CA, they were not all in the same jurisdiction, thus negating that whole "getting lucky" thing. Obviosuly circumstances very from state to state, but I believe to make the blanket statement that it should never be recommended to rep. yourself is ignorant and pessimistic.

But back to the topic at hand, whatever course you choose to follow in pursuing custody, I wish you the best of luck. It's hard for father's to get their kids, but it's worth the fight. Don't get discouraged and whether you choose to hire a lawyer or not, it won't be smooth sailing. You will have to fight, but there's no reason you can't win. Hold a good thought.