children refusing to visit

[debid13065]

My BF is going thru the same thing....4 kids 6-15....msg from the X because she wants the kids to go to her sisters instead of with their father on his time.  Now don't get me wrong, X is uncooperative, has a contempt on denial of visitation, 30 day sentance hanging over her head, and will tell whoever listens that "It's all his fault!" She tells the children everything about the courts, she interfers with his visitations, not only her, her older children and friends and family.

"Why can't the kids make the decision weather they want to go with you or not. Now that's forcing them, that's forcing the issue on them. That's not right and not fair to them.  That's not being a father, and that's not cooperating either. talk about me cooperating oldest is gonna be upset cuz she can't go, that's not fair to her. Because of what you want, your gonna destroy them, that's not fair, they want to spend time with their aunt. the only time they can do that is on the weekend, and I'm not taking them down their at 8pm at night, after your visit, and I have to go back and get them the next day that's not fair.

Now he has tues & thurs 5-7pm and sat 10-8p never gets them at 10 it's 12.  Police station drop/pick-up, which bites into his time, X detains him with the verbal abuse and so does her daughter and no one seems to care!  This is what his kids are up against.  Not only an alienating BM but her biodaughter as well, all four of his children are under their control.

His X would rather see him, just pay support and abandon the kids.  The kids enjoy spending time with Dad, they all talk at once...they have fun, but is worth it cuz when they get home they have to deal with the spanish inquisition/interrogation from X and her daughter.  She's on the alienation campaign, read Divorce Poision it's helping but to spend  less than 2 hrs with them on tues/thurs, and defending yourself against everything that is being said by X and trying to say it without badmouthing or spreading your own poision is emotionally hard.

Sorry sore subject, back to court again for this on Monday too!

[4honor]

I am the poster child for what happens to girls who have been severely PAS'd. (Single mother at 18, lost custody of my child at 25, alcohol problem for 10 years, small stint in jail, hung out with armed career criminals and dealers, etc.) And now things are very different, but it has taken a long time to come back from that.

My parents had a VERY high conflict divorce. I was 16 when they split and 17 when they divorced. My mother was an emotional wreck (go figure, 'cuz she filed for and drove the divorce.) She was (in my lay opinion) mentally disturbed. The long and the short of it was that even though I felt I was an emotionally strong and mature child for my age, I was unable to stand up to my mother's severe alienation tactics.

I behaved abomidibly toward my father who was never anything but a good father to me and my siblings. I am sure you are asking WHY did I do it?

Well, because I did not trust my father to rescue me from my mother and when all was said and done, I had to live with her, not him. He was out. He was free, and the crap my mother fed me about him did one thing... made me believe that he didn't love me enough to get me out of there. Don't get me wrong, he did nothing to promote that and never missed a CS payment or a visitation, but he was a long haul truck driver -- he was not home more often. (Pay CS for 4 of 6 kids --- other two were emancipated by then -- and see if you have the opportunity to change jobs.)

I made the conscious choice to cut off my father to make it easier to live with my mother, cause I thought if I crossed her my life would be more of a hell than it was. I picked my path knowing how awful it would be if I chose my dad and he failed to free me from her. I survived. It cost me my father for many years. It cost me my self esteem. But the alternatives were worse.

He thought we were being cared for -- not really. We physically restrained my mother from committing suicide on a monthly if not weekly basis. She did some really bizarre things, etc. He did not have the information he needed. We thought he knew, and everyone suffered my mother's actions for years. (She came across as normal to most people).

The things my father did which I found most helpful is he maintained his relationship with me, sometimes against my will. He never got more than 10 days from a phone call, card, letter etc. I put up a fuss and kicked and screamed, but we had a relationship he would not let go of. He did not try to make it more than it was, he just took a stance and did not give any ground on it. I came to depend on finding him "there" where I last left him. And he always was. He did not "make" me have a good time, but he insisted I come on visitation about 90% of the time. I secretly wanted to come, but was worried my mother would commit suicide while we were all gone... after all, she threatened to often enough.

When my mother died (ironically of cancer), I was free to pursue the relationship. He did not hold my poor behavior against me. He let me take the lead on how close we were to become. Now he nags me incessantly about my health and calls me "Sissy" like he used to when I was 6. We can even talk politics a little though I am a die hard Republican and he a die hard Democrat.

The SDs are doing what they in their juvenile minds feel is necessary to survive under the circumstances they are in. The only cure for the relationship is maturity -- and some people don't get that even with time.

Have DH draw his line in the sand and never give any ground. If you do nothing else, send a card once a week. Something light and kookie and funny that you can say "I love you" on. The frequent reminders on something tangible help. Call the answering machine and leave them messages just before school lets out -- so they are the ones getting it, not their mother. No pressure, just unconditional love with no strings attached.

[debid13065]

I printed this out and giving this to BF, he's going thru a major alienation campain right now.  His 12 y/o just called and said she's not going tomorrow and she's never going again.  This is the girl who Thursday night was begging him to rescue them from their mother.  Court on Monday, we'll see what happens then.  Thank you for your letter, I seriously thought this would be the breaking point for him to walk away.  Reading that, he now realizes that he has to step it up, for his kids well being.  

[Kboeds]

Lawless,
You said you came here for advise yet you complain about the advise you get. If you want only to hear what you already feel yourself then you should just write in a journal and read it back to yourself.

BTW I am prepared for your angry reply.

I will give the same advise that others have given.

You said if the parents were together the child wouldn't be able to ignore one of the parents. That may be true but children who want to  run away from home. Is that legal?? No.. But they do it anyway. Parents can get the law involved and bring them back but will they stay as if all is well? No they will probably run away again.

My story is this. DD decided at 14 that she wanted to go live with BF. I allowed it and in our custody papers it states that my visitation is only what DD will agree too except for Holidays. (YES) the judge signed stating that a then 15 YO could decide if she wanted to see me or not.
DD and I had very little contact with each other for the first 10 months after she moved out. We would only have visits for a few hours on the few occasions that we saw each other. I did not call DD because she obviously needed space and time to figure things out on her own.

10 months after she moved out she called and ask if she could come spend the weekend with me. (I was shocked) DD came that weekend and has come to my house EOW since then and called me EVERY day sometimes 2 or 3 times a day since then.

So not only did the judge make it LEGAL for DD to make the decision. I gave DD the time she needed to figure things out and when she came back, she came back because she wanted to, NOT because I or the courts forced her too.

When DH took his ex to court to change his visitation for out of state purposes, the judge put IN THE ORDER that DH's 16 YO son could decide whether or not he wanted to have visitation with DH. (YES) the judge signed the order stating that a 16 YO could decided on visitation.

So, take it to court.... Your DH may lose his daughters for good. He will make them more angry by trying to force them into doing something they don't want to do, and more then likely the judge will say the girls ARE old enough to decide whether or not they see there father. If your DH wants to take that chance go for it. I think that would be a big mistake!!

Good luck!

KB

[lawless]

Thanks. I was really looking for people who have actually taken the BM to court to see what happened. I am guessing that it doesn't happen very often as it sounds like a losing battle - or maybe winning the battle but losing the war.  

Even though I probably chose the wrong forum originally (being a newbie), the stories have been useful and I appreciate the time taken to respond.  I feel that it is important to feel comfortable disagreeing and to pose some questions and alternate opinions.  That is what "forums" are all about.

The really upsetting part is that at least one of our teenage daughters is "acting out" in a very dangerous and destructive way that is also stereotypical of a teenage girl without a father in her life. Her safety is the driving force behind our fight.  This is why we are so reluctant to allow her to continue making her own decisions. (See 4honor Feb 3)

It sounds like there are many eventual success stories. We may have to hope that the children will eventually reach out rather than trying to get their Mom to "do the right thing". I continue to believe that adult decisions are not a child's to make (see visitation FAQ #22) but we do recognize that there is only so much that we can do and the legal system is certainly disappointing in this regard. Congrats on having your daughter back in your life.

Lawless

[lawless]

Thanks very much for your posting.  Your story is powerful and very helpful!
Lawless

[lawless]

Debi,
Thanks so much for your postings.  Those phone calls are heartbreaking.  We have had so many of them, I have lost count.

Best of luck on Monday.  

Lawless

[Davy]

Lawless,

I did not see your original post (deleted) but would suggest that your concerns and considerations are in keeping with most posters and society as a whole.  I hope you don't dumb down into acceptance and tolerance of morally, ethically and legally corrupt social policies that endanger children.
 
Food for thought.  Upon acknowledging some of the common characteristics of growing and sever juvenile delinquency the federal office of Juvenile Justice was able to push state legislation criminalizing
(no longer just civil) custodial interference (ie visitation/possession).  
The articles section on this site contains an article documenting all
states..

In addition, a parent has an obligation to protect their children  irregardless of any court order.

Come again !!

[lawless]

Interesting that when a child refuses to go to school, we force them to go because it is what is best for the child.  When a child refuses to go on visitation with or speak to the non-custodial parent, the resounding advice is to let them choose even though having both parents in their lives is clearly in the child's best interests.    

Thanks for the supportive words.  I will check out the articles.

L.

[4honor]

that the lasting benefit of my pain is that it helps other people about to face the same roads. Though I sometimes cry when I write my story, they are not tears for me, but for the families about to face the pain I have already waded through. It is not what I would wish on anyone, and I know "I am strong, but what about this family? Can they withstand what I did?"

So, I shed a tear or two and pray a prayer or two (each day), and send peace and healing whenever I can.

God Bless, and may God grant each family seeking information here:
   1. Wisdom beyond their experience
   2. Peace in dealing with their ex
   3. Strength of purpose
   4. Unconditional love for their children
   5. Vision to see the door "out" of the conflict
   6. A mind set on getting the children to adulthood in
       one piece physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually.
   7. And HOPE -- especially in the face of despair