Can a father really get custody???

[pw7285]

I posted this on Custody Issues with no response.  Hope to get some help on this board.


My 6-year-old daughter lives in Iowa with her mother. My ex is single, goes to school, doesn't work and complains about EVERYTHING! We have joint custody. I live in AZ and have seen my daughter on average every 52 days over the last 2 years. We talk on the phone almost every day sometimes twice. I stay very involved with my daughters' life; I keep copies of all of her medical records from all of her Dr's because I want to know everything that is going on with her especially when she is with me. I have arranged to have the school send me her progress reports for obvious reasons. I feel that I could obviously do more but being 1500 miles away you do what you can.

Periodically I have the unfortunate situation where the ex gets on the phone and just rips me a new one because she is stressed and just happens to be having a bad day. Usually this is done with our daughter in the next room or in the room of their apartment. During these times, and their have been a few, she says things like, "I can't do this anymore, I'm done, I don't have a life, It sucks being a single mom, I have to bathe her, cut her nails, do her homework, make sure she is fed, etc... What the ex doesn't know is the under the advisement of my lawyer I have most of these conversations recorded.

The ex is in school and does have homework everyday so I am not saying she has it easy but the message she gives me is that our daughter is really becoming a burden to her. I have offered on 3 occasions to take our daughter until the ex finishes school. She won't hear of it, "that's not the answer" she says. When she needs help financially, I help her, when she needs help with schoolwork or understanding something, I help her. I pay $1100 a month for Child Support and to be honest I wouldn't care if it were higher. The answer to all of my ex's problems is for me to quit my career, sell my home and move to Iowa. The ex and I had a very unhealthy relationship for the first 2 years of our daughters' life. To this day, our daughter still recalls our arguments. This was the reason we split.

I obviously love my daughter to death but packing up and moving closer to help take care of her knowing that the ex would just want to pick fights and make my life as well as our daughters miserable is definitely not my idea of what is in the best interest of our daughter. The ex is a person who is never happy about anything, complains about everything and quite frankly nobody will ever do anything to satisfy her. She is just that way.

My question is how bad do things have to get in order for a father to petition the courts for custody? I'm not asking for sole but I would like to have physical custody. The emotional stress that I feel when haveing to talk to her is difficult to deal with.  I can imagine it being the same for my daughter.

What can I do, if anything, to get my daughter?

Any input is appreciated.

[MixedBag]

yes, a father can get custody.

HOWEVER, changing custody once it's been determined by the initial divorce is tough, difficult, and the courts go by a different standard or criteria.

There is no magic formula or path to follow to "get your daughter".

Maybe that's why you didn't get an answer before.

[Sherry1]

* drug addict
* alcoholic
* abuses uses your daughter
* sexually uses your daughter

Or has a boyfriend or family member that does so, the answer is NO.

A judge will not uproot a child and place it with the other parent unless there is obvious detriment to the child.

In my humble opinion

[pw7285]

What about mental/emotional abuse?

Are the courts really that oblivious to the non-physical types?

[Sherry1]

if you have loads of money then it would be easier.  I seriously doubt there is even one person in this entire forum that has ever had custody reversed due to emotional abuse.

[MixedBag]

and vindictive CPs have figured this out....(we know two of them)

[Brent]

>Are the courts really that oblivious to the non-physical
>types?

Unfortunately, the courts couldn't care less about emotional abuse. It's unbelievable, but absolutely true.

[msme]

Some judges don't even care about physical abuse, unless you can prove that the children are in "immenent danger of death." We had a judge say that since the child didn't seem to be in immenent danger of death so she saw no reason for either supervised or no visitation.

You never get a second chance to make a first impression!

[dsm]

You could get an evaluation done by a psychologist who says 'Absolutely this child is suffering emotional trauma being in the day-to-day contact with her mother'.  And your ex's lawyer would be able to find another psychologist to evaluate and come to the conclusion that there is no emotional trauma being dealt with.

Emotions are too hard to measure and catalog.  Sad but true.

Here's what we did - because we also were dealing with a case where the mom was overwhelmed by everything going on in her life to take care of her kids.  You've already started on a good note with being very involved with doctors and teachers.  These will become HUGE allies for you.  Maintain the relationship with her teachers.  Even though you are several states away, the more often that they hear from you, and you participate in things, they will see that you are serious about being involved with your daughter's education.   Ask for copies of things to help your daughter over the phone with reading or math - we did this since we also were not local.

It took awhile, but we managed to have enough documentation put together and instances and witness list for the negligence our BM displayed that yes, my DH won physical custody of my SD.  That was 4 years ago now.

So, in answer to your original question - can a dad obtain custody.  Yes.  BUT it is alot of work and alot of stress and alot of maintaining and explaining, and begging and pleading to keep people keeping you aware of what is going on.  Keep offering for your ex to let your dd come to you for awhile.  Keep documentation meticulously.

GOod luck!  Keep us updated!



==============================================================================

dsm - 35
DH - 38
SD - 16
LO - 10
BB - 2
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3 Cheap Entertainment cats - Sam,  Snoop & Dagger
------------------
Live, Love, and Laugh

[pw7285]

It is very discouraging to think that the courts would allow this type of behavior to continue when the main focus in decision making is always "what is in the best interest of the child".  Having a better quality of life in a non-hostile environment is better for any child.

Being abused whether it's physical or sexual have the same outcome...emotional problems.  Why is emotional abuse directly so different?


Thank you very much for sharing your experience with me.

[dsm]

Kids handle stress in different ways, and sometimes it is not even seen that they are under stress.  Some withdraw; others act out.

Again, you should get very close to her teachers - email them regularly.  Visit as often as you can.   Let THEM tell you what they see going on day in and day out - get THEIR suggestion for what would help.  Truly, they will become strong contacts for you and give you references when/if it comes to the point of needing character letters.

And something else that I wish we would have investigated closer and sooner - if your ex is admitting to YOU that she is overwhelmed and cannot handle things - she is admitting it and displaying it in other ways.  Contact the local child welfare and request a copy of any and all reports that involve your daughter.  We did this towards the end of our battle and the case file was 1 1/2 inches thick just on concerned neighbors, teachers, family members reporting that there was negligence going on.  Don't accuse your ex of anything - just request a copy of any records they have that involve your daughter.


==============================================================================

dsm - 35
DH - 38
SD - 16
LO - 10
BB - 2
------------------
3 Cheap Entertainment cats - Sam,  Snoop & Dagger
------------------
Live, Love, and Laugh

[Dez]

>>What the ex doesn't know is the under the advisement of my lawyer I have most of these conversations recorded.<<

Not sure why your lawyer wanted this, unless he/she just wanted to hear them first hand. Remember, you'll be paying by the hour for them to listen to the tapes.

That said, I've never heard of a tape recorded conversation being admissible in court without consent of the recorded party. With messages left on an answer machine being the only exception that I know of.

I'm not a lawyer...just my 2 cents. Good luck to you.

[msme]

Tapes may not be admisable in court but they can prove invaluable for a evaluator or a guardian et Liedum to here.

You never get a second chance to make a first impression!

[pw7285]

The ex continues her "mood swings" even tonight!

I haven't talked to my daughter in 3 days and when I call before 6PM as requested by mother she says, "we're busy call later" then hangs up.  When I do call back she doesn't answer. This is her way of controlling the situation.

This is the type of sh** I have to deal with.  She knows what upsets me and that anything involving my daughter drives me crazy.  I strongly feel that she uses our daughter as a tool and loves the attention when complaining (poor me, I am the only single parent in the world) to her friends and family about how miserable her life is.

Meanwhile, my daughter wonders "why hasn't dad called me".  That's the part that drives me crazy because it isn't for lack of trying.

[debid13065]

Keep calling her, send her a card for Valentines.  Chances are that will spark a reaction in your X.  Have you ever heard of Boarderline Personality Disorder?  Check it out.

[pw7285]

I send her cards for Valentines Days and her B-Day if she isn't with me.  In fact, I even send her mother a card "from our daughter" on her B-day and Mothers Day.

So I looked into Borderline Personality Disorder.  WOW, what an eye opener.  The link on this site is:

http://www.deltabravo.net/custody/disorders.php

It goes over various conditions and disorders.  I truly believe she has issues.  Another example:

Finally got to talk to my daughter last night and about 4 minutes into our conversation she says, "mom wants to talk to you".  Ex gets on the phone and says she can no longer afford her cell phone or home phone so I will need to figure out another way of communication with our 6yr old daughter.  Then she proceeds to pick a fight when I say that this is unacceptable.  This disagreement goes on for about 15 minutes then daughter gets back on the phone and sounds sad.  I apologized to her that she had to hear that and that dad would figure out a way.  Come to find out, mom was "having a bad day" cause she got her 4th ticket in as many months.  Daughter called back 2 hours later to say good night and ex got back on the phone nice as could be telling me about the new coat our daughter was going to start wearing to school and how nice she looked in it?!?!?!?!?

What can I do? I would offer to pay for her basic phone line in order to maintain our communication.  As a custodial parent, doesn't she have an obligation to promote contact between the child and the non-custodial parent?  She lives in an apartment and without a phone what about emergencies? I am not comfortable with this at all.

[JLMEMT]

This sounds like my ex.  Not all of your problem applies, but this exert certianly does.
I'm just looking into trying to get custody.  We were never married and have no court ordered custody.  I'm not as active as I should be because she does everything she can to block me.  She won't answer the phone, tells my daughter I don't care, ignores my messages, changes plans at the last minute, etc.  So I feel what you are going through.  I do live a lot closer though.
In a lot of states, including IA, you can record phone conversations if one party knows.


Good luck!

[Stepmom0418]

Well its been a long while since I have stopped in here. Good to see the newcomers and also the longtimers that are still here at Sparc.


I reside in Iowa and I would say that Iowa is on the road to giving fathers more rights. There is a new joint physical care law and there are many trying to improve that law even more.


If you have more specific questions feel free to send me a pm. I will help the best I can or at least try to point you in the right direction

Oops forgot to add that Iowa is a one party state so those recordings maybe admissable but would also depend on laws in your state. My dh used recordings in court of phone conversations but both parties live in Iowa


Another thing to think about is who moved away you or her and what about you relocating to Iowa so you could share joint physical care?? Just a few things to ask yourself

[pw7285]

More information that supports my efforts at gaining custody of my daughter.

Visited my daughter over the long weekend.  Had a phone conference with her teacher regarding her progress report and how well she is doing.  I was told that she has so much potential if she were only here on a consistent basis.  From Aug 05 - Present she has missed 28 days and been tardy 25 times!!!

Her teacher told me that the principal has sent out a letter already and that if the truancy continues an Attendance Officer from the school district will contact her and could potentially be assessed a fine. Granted our daughter was sick on many of these absences.  It's the tardiness that concerns me.  It disrupts the other students at least 3X's a week.  Of course she always has an excuse and it always revolves around our daughter being sick, getting sick, recovering from being sick or looking like she is getting sick...  

Our daughter does have allergies and a compromised immune system but mom has also been accused many times as being a hypochondriac.  Even before she had our daughter she was ALWAYS on the computer searching for anything and everything health related.  Some people including myself search for possible causes and read up on signs and symptoms but with her it was always the worst-case scenario.  Having said that, I am concerned that mom is a bit over the top on every common cold symptom that she is depriving our daughter of her education and social skills because she treats everything as life threatening.  My daughter is not a pincushion or her little science project; she needs to be in a better environment.

[Davy]

Consider researching Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy.

(excerpt from an article on same)
 
Munchausen syndrome by proxy (MSBP) is a form of child abuse in which a caretaker or parent, usually the mother, systematically fabricates information about a child's health or intentionally makes the child ill -- in order to assume the sick person's role by proxy. Although unexplained persistent or recurrent illnesses or injuries involving a child (and possibly siblings) are potential clues to MSBP, the diagnosis can be elusive.

And .... this condition can follow a child into adulthood.  The sick person may be able to desolate a child in order to make the child dependent on them.

Note that diagnosis can be elusive primarily.  I think, it is a matter of social conditioning that mothers are nuturing. In some documented cases, suspicious hospital medical staff have successfully used hidden cameras to gather evidence.

No pun intended but it is a hard pill to swallow for most people.

[Stepmom0418]

Are you sure that my DH's ex isnt your ex?? LOL!! Just kidding Dh's ex only has 1 child and thats a boy but they sure sound alot alike. DH went to trial last year with alot of the same complaints that I am hearing from you. DH got her with several counts of contempt in regards to visitation being denied. School issues were a nightmare!! SS had missed 37 days of kindergarten, about the same in 1st and was headed the same way in 2nd grade. When we went to court we had MANY (15+) documents to enter as evidence and she had 3 or 4. She made false accusations and said that we threatened her and endangered SS and Dh's visitation should be supervised! She did manage to retain physical custody but DH got a reasonable VERY detailed court order.


Anyways long story short we are headed back to court once again for contempts. Since March of last year DH has been denied 13+ visitations.

Good Luck to you and dont forget to DOCUMENT EVERYTHING!!!

I sent you a PM! Check your inbox

[fatherwithcustody]

Yes a father can really get custody, I am living proof of that. My son's mother was not a drug addict, alcoholic, a criminal. I presented my case, had testimony from a therapist my son was seeing. Document, document and keep up the recording, I had that too but never had to use it.

[m2daj]

wolud like 2 communicate with u im divorced and am trying 2 gain custody of my dtr. i live in tx and i hear its hard 2 do that here. my x causes all kinds of problrms 4 me and my dtr. i have read about PAS and know that she does these things. can u contact me at [email protected] PLEASE???!!!
thanks
m&mc

[doright]

I know a guy who tried this and it worked:  bribery.  Tell her that if she wanted, you could take temporary custody of your daughter, but you will still pay her the child support. Tell her you'd like to try it for just 6 months, that you'll fly your daughter to visit, etc. make it sound like an offer she can't refuse.  

A guy I know had 2 kids with XGF. She was a lot like your X. He offered to take one kid, still pay support for 2 kids.  Then after a few months, he offered to take the other kid, still paying her support for 2 kids. After one year, he went to court and got full custody. The judge was not amused with her at all, selling her kids to the X!!!  

[FL_48603]

>>I posted this on Custody Issues with no response.  Hope to
>get some help on this board.<<

This is the norm.  I used to think it was because all these "Father's Rights" types want to research their response to make sure it is tailored to our needs and to make sure they are not putting themselves in liability by offering advice.

Come to find out we do not share the same emphasis on information sharing.

It would be nice if there were a place for fathers, by fathers... wouldn't it?

>>My 6-year-old daughter lives in Iowa with her mother. My ex is
single, goes to school, doesn't work and complains about EVERYTHING!<<

I have discovered that your ex may have gotten her information from a "WOMAN'S SHELTER" or "WOMAN'S ADVOCACY" group because it matches my ex to the "T".

I recently had an abuse/neglect case against my ex-wife which should have caused my child to be put in my custody.

But because my ex is in school and working several part time (under the table) jobs, she is milking me and the system for all the support she can get.

Check with your local social services department, the local unemployment department and get their "FRAUD HOTLINE" numbers.  They will have inforfmation with which you can determine how best to attack the possability that your ex may be exploiting her employment status fraudulently.

>>We have joint custody. I live in AZ and have seen my daughter on average every 52 days over the last 2 years. We talk on the phone almost every day sometimes twice. I stay very involved with my daughters? life; I keep copies of all of her medical records from all of her Dr's because I want to know everything that is going on with her especially when she is with me. I have arranged to have the school send me her progress reports for obvious reasons. I feel that I could
obviously do more but being 1500 miles away you do what you
can.<<

Document all of this and put into a journal format, because it will come in handy in a future hearing to demonstrate your attachment and involvement in the child's life.

>>Periodically I have the unfortunate situation where the ex
gets on the phone and just rips me a new one because she is
stressed and just happens to be having a bad day. Usually this
is done with our daughter in the next room or in the room of
their apartment.<<

You can site these instances as cause for action and any of a number of different of your circumsntances as a "CHANGE OF CIRCUMSTANCE" whereby to justify bringing the matter back to court.  ONCE IN COURT, you should, either in mediation or by judges order, stipulate that all telephone contact be free from such interference from your ex.  State that it puts pressure on the child to have your ex interfere in the phone contact and state that this is action on your ex's part is detrimental to the best interest of the child.

>>During these times, and their have been a few, she says things like, "I can't do this anymore, I'm done, I don't have a life, It sucks being a single mom, I have to bathe her, cut her nails, do her homework, make sure she is fed, etc...<<

Boo, hoo.  Tell her that you will gladly alleviate her bellyaching by taking full custody of the child and watch how quickly she chirps a different song.

>>What the ex doesn't know is the under the advisement of my lawyer I have most of these conversations recorded.<<

Maybe you want to be careful how much of this you admit to on this message board.  BELIEVE THIS - your ex may now or may in the future troll through this board trying to pre-emptively second guess you.  At the end of the day - USE EVERY DEVICE AT YOUR DISPOSAL TO WIN YOUR CASE AT ALL COSTS.

>>The ex is in school and does have homework everyday so I am
not saying she has it easy but the message she gives me is
that our daughter is really becoming a burden to her.<<

The CLEAR and UNARGUABLE edge your ex has on you is that she can cry on your shoulder about how burdensome you child is on her and then when she goes to court she can sing the other song about how the child needs her and she is the better parent on because she has a uterus and you testicles, the judge will ALWAYS be entranced by her argument which is the same baseless argument regurgitated over and over every day.

>>I have offered on 3 occasions to take our daughter until the ex
finishes school. She won't hear of it, "that's not the answer"
she says.<<

TAKE NOTE:  Your ex will tell you what is and isn't the answer.  TAKE NOTE: Your ex will act like YOUR PARENTAL RIGHTS and THE RIGHTS OF YOUR CHILD TO HAVE YOU IN THEIR LIFE is something that the ex can give or take away...

CHALLANGE THIS POINT OPENLY AND VIGOROUSLY BECAUSE THIS RIGHT IS CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED.

>>When she needs help financially, I help her, when she needs help with schoolwork or understanding something, I help her. I pay $1100 a month for Child Support and to be honest I wouldn't care if it were higher.<<

RETHINK THIS.  I used to say the same thing - I even said it to The Court: "Your honor, I am not asking you to modify child support even though your giving me more time with my child in order to deal with the mother's abuse and neglect will increase my time".

THEN the ex and her sleazy divorce lawyer father tried to knife me in the back with "MODIFICATION OF CHILD SUPPORT AND ATTORNEY FEES" stating that "his income has increased since the original order was drafted".

CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT A LOVING AND CARING MOTHER WOULD TURN THEIR OWN ISSUES OF NEGLECT AND ABUSE INTO A PLATFORM TO MILK MORE MONEY AND SUPPORT OUT OF THE SYSTEM LIKE THE CHILD WAS A PAWN IN SOME FINANCIAL DISPUTE?

So I shaved two thirds off her child support and took 50/50 custody until the next hearing - and I encourage you to do likewise.

>>The answer to all of my ex's problems is for me to quit my career, sell my home and move to Iowa. The ex and I had a very unhealthy relationship for the first 2 years of our daughters? life.<<

The answer is in the statement... she wants you to surrender your financial leverage and put yourself in a position of financial disadvantage so she can sucker punch you.

Don't let her hypnotize you using your "good-guy" guilt syndrome.

>>To this day, our daughter still recalls our arguments. This was the reason we split.<<

You can bet money on the fact that thats not what your ex is conditioning your child to believe and it is only a matter of time until you start to see the signs of parental alienation.

Time will wear away at the innocence of your child and they will gradually start to assimilate the message they are subjected to:

"Mommy is the parent - daddy is the visitor".

>>I obviously love my daughter to death but packing up and
moving closer to help take care of her knowing that the ex
would just want to pick fights and make my life as well as our
daughters miserable is definitely not my idea of what is in
the best interest of our daughter.<<

Nothing is obvious to The Court.  Everything must be meticulously spelled out, defended, supported and proven - start building up your case now.  Pick you fights and the ground upon which to fight them.  

>>The ex is a person who is never happy about anything, complains about everything and quite frankly nobody will ever do anything to satisfy her.<<

What if she is just playing head games to manipulate you?  What if she is sharing how happy she is with her friends and family and sharing how much life sucks with you?  

>>She is just that way.<<

A pathological condition which could take a toll on the emotional well being of the child if you don't take action to correct matters.

>>My question is how bad do things have to get in order for a
father to petition the courts for custody?<<

It comes down to how well you can argue a case.  I bet if you took a weekend and read through case law regarding child custody in your area, you could find several points with which you could petition the courts.

The issue becomes one of finding an argument with "teeth".

Read the case law and esisting statutes governing "Family Law" in your area.  Mark out wherever you find your ex is in "violation" of the order you have or where the order you have is contrary to what's best for the child.

Find suitable CHANGE OF CIRCUMSTANCES to justify coming before the court.

State a suitable cause.

>>I'm not asking for sole but I would like to have physical custody. The emotional stress that I feel when haveing to talk to her is difficult to
deal with.<<

No matter what, you should always ask for SOLE custody while offering PHYSICAL CUSTODY as a plan B.  Gamble on the fact that the deck is tacked and you have a greater chance of arguing them down to accepting plan B.

>>What can I do, if anything, to get my daughter?<<

Read through your post here listed and find where what your ex is putting your child through violates your child's rights them come in hard and heavy on these points.

They will attack your sense of worth as a dad, they will try first to exhaust you financially then lastly they will resort to false accusations.

Gaurd yourself with counselling and keep your money flow right.

>>Any input is appreciated.<<

NEVER LET THE BASTARDS GRIND YOU DOWN.

I wonder if the Roman who coined this phrase ever thought that one day a culture of fatherlessness would see to perpetuate fahterlessness.  Then again if they had The Empire might not have fallen.  Welcome to America.

[FL_48603]

>>Although unexplained persistent or recurrent illnesses or injuries involving a child (and possibly siblings) are potential clues to MSBP, the diagnosis can be elusive.<<

I was ready to add this to my arsenal.  After nearly replacing all my child's teeth which the ex allowed to rot, several instances where the child was allowed to get sunburn creating weeping blisters, and in light of the countless other well documented instances of abuse and neglect, it just made sense.

Word to the wise... mothers can back over their kids or drown them and get retried to avoid the death sentence, and they can be bag chasing crack addicts and keep their kids even though dad would be a well adjusted alternative - IT SUCKS THAT MUCH!

So MSBP is a good final nail in the coffin lid, but only on the tail end of a long list of other offenses for which the mother will definitely be scrutinized.

[FL_48603]

>>RE: Unless you have "documented Proof" that your ex is a * drug addict* alcoholic* abuses uses your daughter* sexually uses your daughterOr has a boyfriend or family member that does so, the answer
is NO.<<

While I encourage the documentation of all these things if you can get it... It is not as hard as you make it out to get CUSTODY.  Most often the other party will break down under a good mediation session wherein you state your argument with which you will take sole custody IF they don't agree to give you a more benign alternative - FACT.

>>A judge will not uproot a child and place it with the other parent unless there is obvious detriment to the child.<<

Even if there is obvious detriment judges like to cow tow to the feminist front.  

Still.  The right judge on the right day with the right pressure applied fromt the right angles...

In my humble opinion

[pw7285]

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond in such detail.

I have just returned from flying my daughter back to Iowa after having her in AZ for the past 2 weeks over spring break.  We had a fantastic time.

My research of my ex's behavior has led me to Borderline Personality Disorder.  She could be the poster child for this disorder.

I will continue to document and will take your advice on researching case studies in my area.  My guess is that I will need to study them also in Iowa.  Although the court papers were drawn in AZ and our daughter was born in AZ, they have lived in Iowa for just over 2 years.  Does this mean that AZ doesn't have jurisdiction anymore or does that even matter?

Thanks to everyone and I will continue to update.