Steaming mad...what to do?

[dontunderstand]

So we got a letter from our attorney yesterday that included a letter from BM attorney.  She stated that we are not sending SD home in the clothes that she goes in.  She stated Bm "has spent a great deal of "close" to outfit the child for school."  (This in itself is CRAP.  SD is still wearing shoes that are too small and has 1 pair of jeans and the same coat she has had since last year! at the most she bought a new shirt or two)  She stated we threw away a "brand new" pair of shoes that were "too small" and this is inappropriate. She goes on to state that we should have sent them home and purchased her a new pair.  We did buy her new shoes and sent them home!!!  The shoes she had were very old and 1 1/2 sizes too small!  Her toes were all balled up.  We are "alledgedly sending her home in old play clothes rather than her new ones."  We don't even have play clothes here.  When we finally got to see SD again we went and bought her ALL NEW THINGS, BM wouldn't send any and when she would come her clothes would be WAY TOO SMALL (she wears a 7/8 and she would be in a 4T) When she gets here, she changes into clothes that she has here.  She wears clothes from here all weekend and then right before we take her to exchange, she wears exactly what she wore here, I don't even wash them (BM instructed me not too and SD gets in trouble if I do)  
BM is mad because she has new stuff here and she feels it should go to her house, which would be fine, except it ends up "disappearing" and we never see it again.  She is telling her attorney that we keep SD clothes here for my daughter and send her home in my daughters "old clothes"  That is so sick and so wrong and so funny because even though our daughters are about the same age, my daughter is a size 8-10.
Her attorney instructed us "to return all of her things immediately."  DH called her last night to see what we have so that we can get it back to her. (Knowing we have nothing of hers)  She had HUGE attitude and stated "that was a long time ago" DH told her we didn't throw the shoes away we have them in a  bag, and we can give them back to her, but they were too small and we bought her new ones and sent them home.  She told him the ones we bought were NOT new.  He told her we have the receipt and she stated not for those "old dirty shoes" we don't buy her new stuff and if we do it must be at our house, because SD never gets anything new.  And then said, "is that all, I have things to do" (all on tape)  then she had SD call and say she has a skirt (with a big hole in it) over here and can she get it back.  DH told her if BM had something to say that she can call him, but SD isn't going to be in the middle.  He then called BM and said the same thing on her machine.  No return call.
The letter also stated we are 2 months behind on CS.  We just talked to the CS lady last month regarding a possible OVERPAYMENT, because we pay monthly and they are going to take it out of his check, anyway and that that is a possible contempt going to happen along with the above.

So how do we prove that the sh!t she sends her in is the same sh!t she gets back and do we continue to send the too small shoes and clothes home?  I kept them so BM can't make her wear them again.  I let her take her boots home  (2 sizes too small) and she continues to wear them toes balled up and all.
When is enough enough???

[MyAngels4]

Can you take a picture of her the minute she gets there?

Do you have a satelitte TV? We have taken pics of my SD standing in front of the TV (which has the date and time) right when she gets to our house and when she leaves. I use my digital camera and print it off right away.

Hope this helps,
MyAngels4

[junglechicken]

This isn't a legal issue.  BM's lawyer is bothering him/herself with this either because they're bored, or to suck money from bm.  

You pay cs?  You can prove that you pay cs?  Tell bm (and her atty) to piss up a rope.  You owe no one anything - you're fulfilling your obligation.

[dearsirena]

I would have even gone so far as to take her to a podiatrist with the shoes that were too small and get an official record from a foot specialist.  One more doc to have in the event you have to go to court.

I would also do a spreadsheet on the computer of what she brings and assign each article a number with a checkoff section.  Video tape the process of checking the items off and placing them into her bag to return to BMs.  While this takes time and sounds ridiculous, it does save time in court by simply handing over evidence, watching these PB's put their tales between their legs and listen to a judge admonish them!!!  It is worth the time!!

Sirena

[dontunderstand]

The only thing she comes with is the dirty too small clothes and shoes that are on her back and feet!  BM NEVER sends ANYTHING.  We have her for 9 days starting the end of next week (mom is already PAS-ing her ;( )...what we pick her up from school in is what she will have for the entire time.  That is why we bought her stuff for here, and why this would be so comical if it weren't so dang frusterating!!!
Thank you all for all of your suggestions, they are always helpful!

[Sunshine1]

Hey Don't!

You need to take pictures of the clothes she comes in.  We used to have to do this.  BM would think it was funny sending the children in their dirtiest clothes imaginable, underwear soiled (then 3&4 yr olds), shoes that didn't fit or no shoes at all.  We had all new things at our house and I would photograph her things as soon as they got here, on them and then off of them.  

Seemed the evaluator was extremely disgusted with what she was doing.  The underwear pee stains she tried to say were glo in the dark spots!  LOL!!  Umm that didn't fly.  She learned to send them in more appropriate clothes after she saw how much evidence we presented to the court.  It is now in the parenting plan as well.  She has been pretty good about returning our items and I return hers.  It sucks having to buy new clothes all the time and this is what we do.

Every year I update the "go to mom's house tub"  It consists of socks JUST for her house so I can identify them, underwear JUST for her house so I can identify them and clothes JUST for her house so I don't freak out when they don't come back.  

There is no way on this earth that you are obligated to hand over the "new" things that you bought for her at your house.  That lawyer is just sucking her dry out of money...which is only good for you.  No money...no lawyer...right.  I wouldn't even justify a response to her about the clothes.  I would also KEEP the clothes that she sends her in for your evidence and if you can get her to give you a list of items that she needs returned even better..admitting that she actually sends her in that crap in her own hand writing or on tape!

Seems so long ago we went down that road.  LOL!!  :)

[wysiwyg]

If I can offer my 2 cents here:

We often complained about this, BM would go so far as to herd the child from the car to the home dragging him by the hood of his coat while we waited in the driveway, so she could make the child change into too small jeans, old worn out sneakers and a coat that was many sizes too small!

The judge got PO'd and said that unless BM sends the child to us naked he could and would do nothing.

I guess what I am trying to say is that over time we have had to learn that fishing socks out of the lake that fell in on accident or shorts that were found in the laundry and returned later eventually got to be so overwhelming that the scope of the whole ordeal was the child and not the clothes.  Warranted, too small shoes are a huge issue, but for her to make an ordeal aobut it - I think I would just say, it is over and done with and lets move on to the more important and pressing things.  

Her lawyer is just spending her money by letting her vent on minute matters.

[hagatha]

Don't,

You are being played. I can't tell you if her attorney is just spending her money or if he/she is taking mothers word about the cloths issue. BUT mother is trying to get you to engage in battle you don't want to fight. The more you get upset and frustrated and the more you respond to this crap, the more she enjoys this and the longer she will fight.

I would suggest you carry a camera with you to the pick up. Take a picture of that days newspaper, then take a picture of the kids At Her House, then do the same on the return. And for God's sake SMILE!!! (That will piss her off)

Then let this go. She is TRYING to make you nuts with a situation you cannot possibly win. She has no proof of her alligations and you cannot prove your side either. Her whole purpose is to piss you off and make you nuts. Stop Letting Her!!!!

One other thing. Always, always always return the cloths mother sent. They aren't of any real use to you. Judges don't care really. So give them back. But remember to SMILE when you do.

The Witch

Remember . . . KARMA is a Wonderful Thing!!!!!

[4honor]

Shoes and clothes are a no substance issue. She really won't be going to court over it...and if her attorney keeps sending YOUR attorney letters over these frivilous matters sue the guy for the fees it is costing you.

Since you pick up from school, take the local paper and have the kids hold it outside of school at the moment of pick up -- more believable that way. My digital camera has a 30 second video on it. Video the kid getting closer until you can see what she is wearing. When she goes home get ou the camera, ask her if she has teh clothes in her bag that BM sent her in. She says YES and goes off to BM. You will have proof. I connect to the computer directly and can download that video for any future needs.

Teach the step kids -- actually all the kids -- that all clothes are used after the first time you wear them. So, when you purchase other clothes -- for the child's comfort -- and must send them home, buy second hand but quality looking age/size appropriate clothing.

If you are replacing boots that are too small, buy boots to replace them... so BM will send the child in larger boots next time or she will show herself in concrete ways. Send both pairs home with the child. New clothes are for special times (Birthdays, Christmas, other holidays) among other gifts, when you are the NCP... you take care of their needs in the most financially responsible way you can, because you have to pay CS too.

If you do not take care of the child's needs, and you send them home in clothes that are too small, you are engaging in the same "abusive use of conflict" that BM is. It WILL bite you in the butt.

The key is to be able to walk into court one day, head held high and prove to the court at the 'No reasonable doubt" standard (not just the "more likely than not" standard) that you are the only fit parent and the child should be returned to your custody immediately.

We were able to "intimidate" BM into agreeing to a DOWNWARD deviation from guideline (over $100/month below), she would split transport 50/50 and she provides ALL clothes for residential time (which is not how it previously was).  But she never would have listened to her attorney if we had not documented EVERYTHING, and kept every receipt for 3 years straight, organized them intelligently and in a user friendly manner and walked into court with them. (BM hates to read - not good at it. Paper - lots of it - intimidates her.)

We were able to PROVE in court that we spent 200% more on average each weekend we had SS -- on clothing, on food and on gas than on all other weekends combined.  We actually spent $1K over and above CS on clothes one year replacing what BM didn't send, or sent that was torn or too small. So, we saved that $1K plus $400 for gas and got the $1200+ a year decrease. That first year we realized a decrease in cost for a teenager in the amount of over $2600 ($217 a month overall).

So DOCUMENT DOCUMENT DOCUMENT! but more importantly behave in the manner which first addresses the needs of your child. The rest will fall into place.

[dontunderstand]

So DH and I took into all the great advise, Thank You!... so SD has had a pair of boots (fashion, not snow) since last year.  They were so small that the toe of the boot started to pucker.  (Her toes curled under were pushing the top)  so I couldn't stand it anymore.  DH and I took her to buy her some snow boots.   We sent them home with her old boots.  I asked her to bring them when we picked her up for Christmas break as I knew we would be outside alot and it is COLD!  
When I picked her up, she had on pajamas (pj day at school) and another pair of fashion boots that were too small!  (all she has for 9 days!)  She said her mom "threw them away, I mean put them away because they were too big"  she didn't even feel her toe!  So then her neighbor went and bought her these other fashion boots that are too small "for Christmas" the day AFTER we bought the boots.  
I am so at my wits end.  As all of you, DH and I work our @$$es off so that our daughters can have nice things and clothes and shoes that fit.  BM complains when SD doesn't get new stuff sent home and if she does she "puts it away"  I know that as a CP I would give anything for DD BF to buy her anything!
The funniest part is that this is so little compared to all the other BS she pulls.  It is funny because she is so willing to mess with us at ALL levels...

[Sunshine1]

I told ya... now are you gonna listen to me?  :)  LOL!!  BM used to buy school clothes for the boys, and I always thanked her and appreciated it and LET them wear them, geez extra clothes are always nice even if I do hate her...and I REALLY HATE HER!!!  She obviously has a huge complex with it, I would spin that into my own personal torture of the BM..but that's me.

Buy the boots, keep them at your house. Old/crappy clothes KEEP and send her back in new ones or better ones at least.  She will eventually give up and move on to something more fun and irritating to/for you!

A tactic my niece's Grandma pulls is let the child pick them out, she will freak out if she gets them or clothes she HAS TO HAVE and can't wear them or throw a tantrum until she can.  Grandmas are evil aren't they??  LOL !!

[MixedBag]

to stop them.

STOP playing the clothes game with the EX.

Start learing to hang up if Mom calls and yells that she wants the new clothes sent back with the child.

Keep what you buy her with you.  Send her back in whatever she came in.

First the first few years, my EX sent my son with clothes.  Then I started getting accused of not sending this back or that back.  He seemed to miss the new package of socks, or new shirt, or new jeans, or even shoes.....  But he sure noticed the oversized T-shirts (from DH) that son loved to wear as pajamas.  Those were made fun of and sent back to me.

Then EX just stopped sending clothes -- no notice.  I picked up our son on Friday evening for a weekend and he didn't bring a bag.  From that point forward, son comes and goes with no bag between dad's house and my home.  I buy the minimum required and that's that.

Recently our son has "complained" that I don't buy stuff he likes to wear.  He's a bit older now and I told him "Well, son, you're old enough then to bring along a few shirts that you do like from your closet.  We're not together long enough for me to know what you like and don't like because we only get 2 days a month together.  I'm trying and I'll keep trying....but you gotta learn to help yourself."

Heck, this summer, I let son pick out new tennis shoes -- and dad got mad and threw them at me (in front of son) and in a letter called them all horrible names -- But SON picked them out, so who was really being the fool?  In this case, Dad, but Dad don't get it.

Sometimes the EXs never catch on -- so you gotta learn to stop participating in their games....

Keep your own supply.....and get rid of the  headache.

[dontunderstand]

That is EXACTLY what we have been doing for the last year.  Send her home in EXACTLY what she came in and buy stuff to have here.  Then we HAD to buy her some new sneakers because hers were a size and a half too small and sent those home with her so that she would never have to wear the old too small ones.  I feel like if I knowingly send her home in those too small shoes, I am no better than BM.  I TAKE CARE OF MY KIDS!!!  I just feel like I am damned if I do and damned if I don't.  She bitches and calls her attorney either way (if we buy new clothes and if we don't), and either way we get a crappy threatening letter from BM's attorney!  (Oh and FYI, she doesn't pay her attorney, she is either pro bono or a relative or family friend.  She has been on retainer since 1999, and BM only suppot is CS and whoever she can con!)

[wendl]

She will continue to do it, buy clothes for YOUR house and keep them at your house.

**These are my opinions, they are not legal advice**

[aduarte01]

>This isn't a legal issue.  BM's lawyer is bothering
>him/herself with this either because they're bored, or to suck
>money from bm.  
>
>You pay cs?  You can prove that you pay cs?  Tell bm (and her
>atty) to piss up a rope.  You owe no one anything - you're
>fulfilling your obligation.

What about the flip side? In my case, BM will send the children in small clothes, sometimes no jacket, and does not send more clothes for the weekend, or even their necesary items, such as medicine or the little ones pillow he likes to sleep with. Is BM obligated to send all of these items for the children since I pay CS?

[evalisto2005]

I agree with what other posters said. I'd take pictures with a regualr camera, but also a camera that's on a cell phone. Then email the pics from the cell to my email address. That helps to prove the dates and times hat the pics were taken. Also, cell phone records can show when pics were taken, when they were emailed, and what size the pics were that were sent.

[evalisto2005]

You also could check to see what the laws are in your state about recording conversations on the telephone, getting concersations on audio and video, and just getting things on video without the other person's consent. I think that usually you can get something on video (but not audio) as long as you're not on that person's property and some times you still can but of course that would cause drama in front of the kid. When picking the kid up and dropping off, you could park on the street instead of her property and have a video camera running in the car. Just check up on the laws before you even consider any of this.

[gipsy]

Hope you have a Digital video recorder . Or take pictures ,
  I had similar , And  also different problems , but video taping  put an end to it , I would have the Vdio recordr on hand at the transfer ,
  Secondly I have a feeling this isn't worth the atty letters . As In My case none of this was brought up at trial : EXCEPT This
   I told the judge that I video taped and that will prove the the mother is lying about the Issues ,
 And that seemed to impress the judge a bit . Because Her atty asked " What the tapes would show " And I said " That she is telling stories about what goes on at the transfer , And that there is never any such Issues . [ Supposeably I was causeing trouble at the transfer ) And I said If I was the one causeing trouble why wasn't the mother the one with the video camera , " And it seemed the judge got it ,
   Also My atty told me . " She will be likely to have her atty send a letter that  Say's I should not be Taping , " And she did have her atty do that ,
  And that wil show who's doing what , And I felt that it did ,
   But the big point is : RELAX : These are not the issues that are going to make or break the case :
  And It's not worth the paper it's printed on , It wasn't much more than a few sentences at trial and I don't think the Impression on the judge was very much ,,
  And not to forget the Issue of the clothes wasn't even brought up ,
   So I suggest , What I do is go to good will and pick out a few decent clothes for very low prices , And Send My son Home in clothes ,  I would not waste my money on the atty letters and tell the atty thats what you think , not to waste your money on this stuff ,
   I bet your atty know's that he charged you $100 Or more for the letters and you could have spent that at good will and had lots of clothing,  So  when he thinks of something that will solidify The visitation schedule to mark it up for the court calender and Spend money on something that will be a benifit to your relationship with your child :
   You are spending money on a grudge about the clothes , And it would be better in my mind to spend it on the clothes and show the judge the reciepts for the clothes at trial , Than It would be to tell how much it costed in atty letters .Ya get iot  be the good clothes buyer and prove it and let her keep up the letters , Go tell your atyty this theory , that you would rather spend on clothes than atty fee's over the clothes , And see what he say's . Bet it will be an interesting converstation . you sometimes have to make it plain with out telling your atty he money grubbing the cash , over the Issue and if he doesn't repond to this you will take the 100 $ and spend it on the clothes and we could bring the reciepts to court , I had a great atty and these are his theories , And they work , Quit the fight and be the good clothes buyer /parent
   Or you could spend the money on a podiatrist , a  psychologyst , And what ever $10,000 can buy to prove the other parent is bad ,
  But my very good atty told me again And again , It's way more impressive to the judge when you prove your self to be the better parent . Than for you to have a list of how the other parent is soo bad , And his theories work quite well .
  Think about it : Won't it be obvious who did right , the one that spent $10,000 to prove the other parent to be bad or the one that bought the kid the clothes ,
 The judge looks at who is the best parent , And the best parent will act like an adult and buy the @!##@%$ ING  CLOTHES~!
  As the real kicker here tell your atty to make a short letter that say's
   I am instructed to keep My coresponence about the clothes to a minimum , So My client can afford the clothes , I suggest you and your client do the same ,
   Signed , John R Good ,Atty at Law

[smtotwo]

When I first came to this site I felt like no ex could be as bad as DH's.

HUH!  Guess I was wrong!!

We buy the kids clothes that stay at our house.  They got new mongoose bikes for christmas that are staying here as well.

Everything they get at our house stays at our house.

Its just not worth fighting with the ex about.

I think she has borderline personality disorder.  
So we do our thing and let her rant and rave and ignore her.

[mykidsdad]

That is exactly what I do, is buy my kids clothes for when they are at my house. When I pick them up the first thing I do is change them into the clothes that I bought them, and wash the ones that they came in, and put them back in those clothes to got back home.

[MYSONSDAD]

She is blowing smoke and pushing your buttons. In my State, improper dressing is neglect. When the clothes do not accomadate the weather, then it can be an issue. Like no coat, hat, gloves at -5 degrees. Choose your battles wisely. And like the witch said, smile like hell....

Take pictures of what she sends, video tape in front of the TV to date it. Keep the receipts of what you do buy. Shoes too small can cause permant damage. Take the child to the doctor, get 3rd party documentation that this is destructive to the child's development.

I keep extra clothes bought from walmart or K-mart for these occassions. Clothes that are about to be outgrown. But our son is the first concern. He will be dressed for comfort. If the items do not get returned, I am not out much.

This happens a lot with most of us here. It is just a game used to get you angry. Once you let it go, do what is right by the child, the game ends. But the most important lesson is, the child sees who puts their best efforts forward toward their well being. Kids are smarter then we give them credit for. They may not say anything, but they observe.

The bottom line for me is the clothes are not mine, they are not hers, they are our sons clothes. Just don't send the really good stuff back. You might also think about garage sales.  
 
"Children learn what they live"

[4honor]

Once upon a time when we were being just as childish as BM and SS was sent in a pair of HOLEY sweatpants and pair of shoes 2 sizes too small, we bought him new and sent it home. BM kept it and sent SS in the same old disgusting stuff she had sent  him in the visitation before.

So I fixed her wagon. I "encouraged" the too small shoes to show SS's toes ....    and the holey sweats ended up with a MAJOR tear through the crotch area -- happened in the wash as a matter of fact -- yep, I made that huge tear before I took it out of the wash machine to put it into the dryer.  (What?!? I told the truth!)

We sent SS home in a new pair of sweatpants (they were on sale for $4 that weekend at K marche') same color, and sent the sweats home with SS in his now properly air conditioned shoes with his toes gratefully sticking out the end instead of being cramped inside. (Did you know that spoons make the same impression on the shoe as toe nails do when you push from the inside out?)

We let BM know that since the things had been ruined at our home we had replaced the clothes and shoes ("please just keep the shoes he came home with last weekend").

BM has never failed to put SS in "serviceable" if not exactly stylish clothes since... she was moritified that SS was walking around like some Clampet reject.  

Now, I do not suggest that you do the same, as it was childish of me. But SS didn't know I had made the alterations -- he just thought he had a growth spurt when he got dressed. (Really.)

We kept clothing for SS here, even when BM was ordered to provide it all, because when it is hot out you forget to pack an extra jacket for that sudden rain shower (we live in the NW and there is almost always a sudden rain shower) etc. So SS had a little bit of all weather's clothing with us... or he did until he went and got that pesky no contact RO...so it was all moved to the in laws' place. DH "visits" him there.

[dontunderstand]

We have a great attorney, that doesn't charge us for this kind of BS!  He sent us the letter 3 MONTHS after he recieved it and only with some other info so that he wouldn't have to charge us!  (He has been/is) a father going through the BS too!  I just posted because I feel it is easier to vent here than to stress DH out further!  Thanks for listening and responding you all!!!

[dontunderstand]

I think our BM is boarderline personality too!  She DEFINATELY has some mental illness!  The stuff she says and does is definately NOT normal!  
We did keep all of her Christmas stuff here, as everything we send home goes in the garbage even if she NEEDS it.  I feel horrible, but I will just do what I can.  It was funny, Christmas Day she asked me, "Are we rich?"  DH was a little confused, (we are not rich, but we can buy what we need and some of what we want)  so I explained it to him...We must look rich to her, here she always has new shoes and clothes, we are always doing family things (that usually cost money), the kids got tons for Christmas, and we never say things to her like "we're broke" or discuss finances with her like BM does.  The funniest part is that BM always tells her to ask DH if "he is broke, because he doesn't pay child support"  (he does EVERY month) and to ask him if he has a job, ETC... then SD comes over here and sees things completely different!  

[skye]

I went through this so many times..first take a picture of her at pick up ..and take a picture of her at drop off..

document...

and do NOT send the clothes you buy for BM...keep them at your house..from the pics you will be able to show WHY you need to purchase clothes and keep them at your home