visitation with no child support?

[Giggles]

The ones who are paying their child support typically don't have to worry about facing the consequences of contempt of court.

This is NOT always the case.  My DH faced a Contempt of Court charge even though he WAS paying and had NO arrears.  So why did he get a contempt of court charge? 

There are CP's out there that do whatever they can to make the NCP's lives as miserable as possible.  It seems to me that the OP is willing to do just that to punish the NCP for not paying and therefore punishes the child as well.

Instead of throwing them in jail, what about making them do community service at the "minimum wage" level and then taking the CS out of that?  I know of many NCP's who have lost their jobs, tried for downward mods and been told no...get a job.  In this economy that is hard to do.

[gemini3]

BTW, they aren't a family anymore.  My kids have 2 families.  One with me, one with their dad.  I am not a part of my ex's family anymore nor is he a part of mine.  That's what divorce is. 

I bet if you asked your kids they would say they only have one family, and it includes all of the people from both sides.

You may not think you're a part of your ex's family, but you really are.  You might be able to legally sever the contract of your marriage, but you can never seperate the blood that runs in your children's veins.  You are, and always will be, intristically linked.

[gemini3]

Oh, momfortwo, I already said you're entitled to your opinion.  I'm not changing mine.  For the final time - I don't agree with him not supporting his child.  I think both parents are responsible for the support.  What I don't agree with is the CP getting involved in when and how the NCP goes to jail.  That crosses a line that should not be crossed.

Going to jail without due process is a violation of the 14th amendment.  Whether or not there is contempt of court has nothing to do with it.  There was no jury involved in the original judgement, therefore incarceration for contempt failing to obey said judgement is incarceration without due process. 

I am sorry for you that your mom made you aware of the fact that your father wasn't paying CS.  Life is hard for everyone - unfortunately it seems she gave you some ammo to blame your father for your hardships.  That's sad.  Children should never be privy to CS arrangements.  This situation is obviously very personal for you, and I can understand why you would get so upset over it.

[mdegol]

Children are not entirely stupid.  And someday, much like Momfortwo, they are going to adults. Well, at least hopefully. Anyway, the point is that it is not fair to blame Momfortwo's mother for her and her siblings knowledge. All you have to do is overhear one conversation when you think kids are sleeping and they know. And once the cat is out of the bag, that' it.

An excellent single father I know, he pays for his child support (which has made him struggle) but he also bought his child a cell phone and pays the bill and other extras. Well, this guy is a saint for what he does (if you knew the whole story), but I really think that parenthood is going beyond the bare minimum required for a child to survive, which is admittedly, not a lot of money. And I don't think it is enough to just give the child "love". It reminds of that saying when you are inviting to an event that you would typically bring a gift for and it says "Your presence is present enough". Well, maybe in some cases, but this can be a cope out as well.

In terms of the due process argument: I don't really understand this. Not all require a jury, particularly contempt of court. Maybe that would be nice, but contempt is meant to be a nasty tool to make you do things.  I knew someone jailed for many months because he refused answer a question on the stand. I mean, they left him in there and transfered him around to some of the toughest prisons in US. For contempt. Until he answered the question, they weren't going to let him out. It is way too useful for courts to abolish. Anyway, I understand the debtor's jail argument though. I mean the community service idea isn't bad, in terms of a punishment, but in terms of a way of paying child support-not so great I think. Also, there is a lot of stubborn people who might feel it is better to pay it to the community through service than to their ex-spouse.

And my NCP is the one always trying to file contempts and making my life difficult. So that is a two way street that is not only walked by CPs.

[MomofTwo]

I think in fairness to everyone, everyone is going to have a difference of opinion based on whatever experience they have been through. 

The poster is not wrong for being angry and upset at her ex for not helping support THEIR children.   We can all argue semantics, but the bottom line is, no one is wrong for their feelings.   It's their reality. You don't know what impact his refusal to pay has had on the children.   My ex doesn't pay his support, he doesn't call his chldren, his family has not called or acknowledged their grandchildren, my children, in over four years.  Before you go there, I make my children call them, but what can they say to adults who  every other day of the year never acknowledge their existence.   

My older son walked in my room one night not so long ago while I was trying to pay bills and I was upset because it was the beginning of the school year and they needed clothes, dr visits, sports equpment...an overwhelming number of things and I was crying.  He asked me if their Dad ever helped with anything for them, then he told me not to answer he already knew.. For the record, my ex has a great job but chooses not to pay any support.  He doesn't buy them anything and he owes 40k in child support I have never sought.  Once a year the state has caught up to him, made him pay $500 and then he goes on and doesn't pay anything till the  next time.  Am I angry ? Your damn right I am and I have every right to be.  This is their father who CHOOSES to ignore court orders and not help in any way support his children.  He also chooses to ignore his children. Doesn't call them, doesn't bother with visitation and he asked during the divorce to terminate his parental rights in exchange for not supporting them.  My only point to any of this is none of us know the entire background of each other and what has brought us here.  None of us knows what we have been through and shouldn't case judgment on posters.   

My opinion regarding jail time for a non paying parent --- there are many chances before jail time is ever considered. If someone gets to that point, there has to be some type of consequence.   It's not debtors jail, it's a consequence of ignoring a court order and they certainly did have due process before it got to that point.   Jail time isn't used for someone making partial payments or paying what they can in this bad economy, it is used for people who willingly avoid the order.

And about two families vs one and what children think...I can only tell you what my son said the other night....We were discussing Christmas planning and I said maybe their Dad would want to spend time with them  at their grandparents...My 14 old replied "I dont' want to go see them for the holidays, I want to spend Christmas with my family, my REAL family." He meant he wanted to spend the holidays with my side of the family.  Don't forget his father's side of the family hasn't called or bothered with the kids in four years....so you see, it's all based on what you have gone through.  I would never tell him he was wrong for feeling that way but I may if I didn't know the whole story.

[CuriousMom]

Hit the nail on the head MomofTwo.....or at least that's how I feel about it

[MrCustodyCoach]

The percentage of people with the ability to pay and willfully do not is a very, very small percentage of the overall picture in this country, despite the experiences of a few individuals here.  Many don't have the ability to pay through circumstances beyond their control, and they are brutalized by the system just the same.

It's government sanctioned civil rights violations in pursuit of the almighty dollar and most people just sit idly by and let it happen.

[gemini3]

amen