Projection grilling (PAS)

[bigdiol]

And for that reason, it is OK for him
>to tell anybody anything about his life or ours.
>
>He was very obviously relieved, so I feel good about that
>decision.
>

WE have had the same issues - but we had SD telling her BM about our financial status. SD was privvy to many conversations I would never had had if she was in earshot of me. DH cant seem to get it, so how much hes making, what the house costs - our bills, asked in an innocent voice ends up at the Momsters.  SD is a prize interragator. She also knew when we sold our home, for how much and what bank we were using!

In addition - SD told all of our plans, so that BM was able to sabatoge them by "showing up" at family members houses - or harassing our friends and family to get all details. She's extremely crafty - and most people dont even realize that they've given away our schedule. BM will lie and manipulate "Oh - he's in the hpospital - Id so like to send flowers - what one - did you say?"  

I think that some things need to be private.
The thing is is that if the kids feel like they are keeping a secret - they have been programmed that it is lying to the parent that wants the info. WE have just kept SD in the dark, which is only minimal effective.

my 2 cents.

 

[msme]

It is very important that you stress honesty to your children. Tell them that you will always tell them the truth & expect the same from them. Also tell them that sometimes there are things that are not to be discussed with children & if such a thing is brought up, you will honestly tell them that it is not something to be discussed with children.

Let them know that they can ask you anything & you promise to give them honest answers. Saying you cannot discuss somrthing with them is an honest answer.

If they say that mom says that you are the one who keeps going to court, then I would say something like, "I really wish your mother hadn't chosen to discuss that with you. It does not concern you. However if she feels that you should know about the courts, then she should show you the paperwork which will show just who filed the complaint.

Kind of underhanded but it might slow her down.


You never get a second chance to make a first impression!

[stressedstepmom]

Mango, I know just what you are talking about. We had a court date last month that BM asked for because she was trying to stop DHs visitation for no reason. Both SSs were extremely upset at DH and we had no idea why. Well the judge basically laughed BM out of the courtroom  and the boys are here now. They are attending counseling once a week with their dad and it has come out (mainly from OSS) that BM had him read all of the letters from our lawyer and he thought or was told that they were all about DH taking BM to court for custody. When OSS told  me this, I thought back on our personal policy of not discussing any court matters with any of the children and decided to bend our own rule. Decided that honesty was best here.I first explained to him that myself and DH thought that all court matters should only be between the adults but that since he was not getting the truth and that was fueling his anger I would discuss a few things with him that one time. I told him that none of the letters mentioned custody once and he told me they did. I explained to him that we had to pay for anytime we talked to the lawyer and anytime he sent anything out on our behalf and that for every letter sent to his mother by our lawyer  we were sent a copy.  He just wasn't getting it, or didn't want to believe that his mother would lie to him, so I just told him bluntly that his mother was denying visitation and that we got our lawyer involved. I told him that we never filed any motions in court, that any court dates were not of our doing. I then told him that we both loved him very much and that all we were doing with the lawyer was protecting his fathers rights to visitation with him and his brother. So far that has worked wonderfully, we haven't discussed the issue any further and all is going well with them. The BM on the other hand is a whole other issue as it always is but we aren't letting her spoil our time with the boys.

[olanna]

Good advice...and you know, the parent is actually making the child protect the parents, in this scenerio...it's just so frustrating. I think those that have nothing to hide, hide nothing.

[littlebit]

MSME and StressedMom,

How old are your children?  My son is 10, and I am having major struggles with how to address these same issues.  We have a rule that we do not discuss adult issues with children at our house.  And this does include court things.

However, we are getting completely rail-roaded by BM.  She tells son of every incident from the smallest everyday occurance, to the major court details.  She even has him read attorney letters, personal letters, court documents, etc.  There is usually about 10% of truth in what she tells him, and 90% trash.  

For instance, we had our breaking point this past Christmas when BM showed her butt while we were at her church attending our son's Christmas program.  We filed charges. She was arrested and found guilty, and the judge issued (among other things) a no contact order against her for my wife.  

We kept all info away from son.  Out of the blue one day he says 'I know ya'll filed charges against my mom.  She told me all about it.'  My reply was very short and simple: 'Do you remember when your mom screamed at us and used bad words at your Christmas play?' --yes-- 'Do you remember when she thru a drink at us and used the middle finger?' --yes-- 'Do you think what she did was right?' --no-- 'When you do something bad, do me or your mother give you punishment?' --yes-- Well, when me or your mother do something the bad, the judge gives us punishment, and that's what happened.'

Couple months later it comes up again.  Son informed us that the judge said we were not allowed to go anywhere that his mom is.  I told him that he had it backward, that his mom was not allowed where we are because of what she did to us at the church.  He was not convinced, but I went no further with it.

BM filed for a RO.  When we went before the judge, it was thrown out.  Judge admonished her for her alienation tactics, ordered weekly phone visits for ME, and ordered a neutral pick-up / drop-off location.  

Again, I never discussed any of this with son, yet he informed us that the reason I don't pick him up at BM's house anymore is because his mom won in court so I can never come on thier property again.  

We went to court again in June for her refusals of my parenting times.  Son was already at my house for the summer when the court hearing happened.  I told son me and wife were going out for a while for some business and to eat lunch, so Gramps will stay with you for a while.  He said that he already knew where we were going, that we were going to court against his mom again.   !!!**$$##  

(By the way...me and my son were awarded an extra two weeks of summer to make up for some of the days she had refused us.)

One last issue I will relay:  During the summer, every conversation she had with him she would tell him of some package or letter she sent that he did not get, and the ones he did receive, she would say she put money or gifts in it that he did not get.  We bent over backward for him to know we were not tampering with his things in some way:  No one but him would check the mail, we inspected each item with him to be sure it had not been opened by anyone except him. and we even took him to the post office (at his urging) to see if there was anything waiting for him there!  She sent him 15 pieces of mail in 8 weeks and he got every single one of them, but she has convinced him otherwise!

What do we do to counteract this type of crap without just saying 'youre mom's lying to you to mess with your head'?!

[stressedstepmom]

Do you have any other court dates coming up? If you do, or if your ex if like my DH's ex and loves to drag you to court every few months, then try to figure out a way to bring these issues up. Judges don't like to hear that a parent is involving a child in adult issues. I understand your frustration. Our PBFH told both SSs (OSS 13 YSS 12) that their dad was going to sue her for custody and take them away from her causing both of them, especially OSS, to lash out very hatefully at DH. DH started receiving I hate you emails from OSS out of the blue and it took us a few months to figure out what it was all about. Actually, it took the boys being with us for summer visitation and not having their mother breathing down their necks to find out. And when CPS was involved, even though in the long run they were no help, at first when they found out that BM was letting OSS read letters from our attorney the case worker really got onto her about that and put a scare into her.
Like I said, I know it is frustrating, but you are doing the right thing by not playing your ex's game. You already tried to explain to your son what the truth was. One of the hardest things we have dealt with is the fact that we get over a hurdle only to have them go home to her and then we have to start all over on the same hurdles again. But in the long run they hopefully will remember that she did all the bashing and we tried to do all the fixing.  Maybe next time that your son brings up any court issues you should do what we did, and just explain to him that anything from your end is done to assure you get your court appointed time with him,  or for the safety of others. Sorry I can't be of any real help. It is a very hard thing to go through, but for now that has seemed to work for us. Also depending on how much time you get with your son and what your CO says, maybe you should do what we did and put him into counseling. My DH has been going weekly with SSs and it has worked wonders.

[littlebit]

Thanks for your input and support.  Sometimes just having some space to vent is helpful.  It is good to hear how other families handle these situations.

I filed for custody and contempt in February.  The current court date is 8-30, but the GAL is asking the judge for a continuance so a full evaluation can be done.

As for counseling, that's a long story too.  I'll try to be brief.  I began taking son to counselor "A" in 2000 and the court ordered BM to continue taking son to the appointments.  She took him to one appointment, then refused to go anymore saying that "A" was biased toward me, and she would start taking son to counselor "B".  They went 2 or 3 times, then stopped because she said "B" did not like women.  

I convinced her to go see counselor "C" in the beginning of 2003.  On the third visit, she wanted me to agree to a summer visitation schedule that she made up, and agree to her moving out of state with our son, and bypass the courts for these things.  When I would not do either, she quit coming.

She went to "C" one more time during summer of '03.  He admonished her for the inapproprated content of her letters and phone calls to son. That was the end of that.  Counselor "C" suggested that she go see counselor "D", but she refuses.

I have continued taking son to the counselor "C" during our summer.  When we went to court most recently for the refused visitaions, the judge also ordered her to continue taking son to the appointments.  The first one since he has been back with BM is next week.  So, who knows what she'll do this time!

[MERGIL]

Oh this sounds just like our household my dh and I are always whispering and watching what we say and trying to figure out how it can be twisted, because we know that It will at some time or another. About a month ago my YSD came home with a bruise on her face we asked OSD If she knew how it happened she replied I do not remember! It supposeably happened the day before.  We never really know whats going to happen we go on what the kids are acting like, if they are kinda moopy or agressive it usually means its time for court again. Its like a debriefing code thing that never gets better just worse and really sad.