Do you see any downside to joint meeting with child's psychologist?

[DecentDad]

Soc,

Reminder:  after reported suicide threat made by 6 year old eight months ago, court ordered appointment of minor's counsel and ordered psychologist for child (psychologist was selected by minor's counsel).

At review hearing 30 days later, things got resolved.  I was happy with the psychologist (who saw through mom's hysteria) and requested the court to order on-going therapy for child with this particular person (over biomom's objection to it).  Order granted, with order carried-over stating that minor's counsel and psychologist can confer as needed without parental consent.

Child has met with psych approx 20 times.  I've met a few times alone with the psychologist for updates.  She repeatedly says she has no significant concerns about child in my home.  Some little things have come up now and then, when she and child invite me into their session to talk about it and come up with solutions.

She's told me that child adores stepmom, is proud of being a big sister, is really bonded closely with me.

She's alluded (not directly) that there are some issues in mom's home and that biomom doesn't seem to accept psych's reassurance that child is okay in my home.

I've asked her more than once that if she had any concerns about my home, would she ask me about it, as I appreciate directness.  She says yes.  But I never hear anything.

Two weeks ago, I asked her outright what her response would be if I went for 50/50, which the 2004 evaluator recommended should begin in 2006 (but never ordered as a step-up).

She said that she wouldn't advise on the custodial schedule but she would tell minor's counsel that child receives something very special and valuable in my home that child doesn't have in mother's home.

PRESENT DAY

Biomom is relentless on her campaign to prove that child is in peril in my home.  I see on the psychologist's billing that biomom regularly meets alone with psych.  Biomom has long history of trying to turn people against me.

Biomom has requested that we meet together with psychologist to discuss her concerns, cc'd psychologist on the email.

Before I could respond, psychologist replied and said it may be a good idea.

I've experienced in past discussions with biomom that she'll distort her recollection of discussions and use it in her pleadings.

Psychologist has suggested that we make a confidentiality agreement prior to the session.

Privately, in response to my concerns about meeting with biomom, psychologist has said she hopes we can allay biomom's fears about my home.  Psychologist already knows that biomom claims I tricked a polygraph, when I denied past accusations about my home, so I don't know how she thinks the fears can be alleviated.


1.  Realistically (looking at big picture), am I pretty much cornered into meeting together with biomom and psychologist?

2.  Biomom ignored an order to seal the 730 report and quoted extensively from it in a past pleading, with no comment from the court.  Realistically, what water would a confidentiality agreement hold if biomom decides to write a pleading with a quote of what she claims I say in the session?

3.  I could demand to record the session, but don't want to come across as a control freak to psychologist.  Thoughts?

Thanks for any opinion on this.

DD

[socrateaser]

>1.  Realistically (looking at big picture), am I pretty much
>cornered into meeting together with biomom and psychologist?

Yes, but your ace in the hole is to agree to meet only if all of the records are made available for future litigation. That will stop your ex cold -- I'll bet. And, it will make you appear to be completely open rather than trying to hide something.

>
>2.  Biomom ignored an order to seal the 730 report and quoted
>extensively from it in a past pleading, with no comment from
>the court.  Realistically, what water would a confidentiality
>agreement hold if biomom decides to write a pleading with a
>quote of what she claims I say in the session?

I would refuse any confidentiality agreement. I'd explain my reasons, but I would nevertheless refuse to meet except with the opportunity for full disclosure.

>
>3.  I could demand to record the session, but don't want to
>come across as a control freak to psychologist.  Thoughts?

I think that it's enough to simply want the therapist's records available for the court's review. Recording is likely overkill, but you could suggest that if your ex is afraid that the sessions will somehow be mischaracterized to negatively impact her, that you will happily agree to have the sessions recorded.

Now, recording seems like a protective mechanism, and if the ex refuses, it will look like she has something to hide.

[DecentDad]

Thanks for the reply

I believe that in California, a mental health professional of a minor has the right to deny access to records to either parent if it is not in the child's interest... regardless of legal custody.

At least from what the psychologist has said (not that I trust words until it's written in an affadavit), she doesn't have many concerns about child in my home.

So, it seems she's already leaning my way and I don't want her to feel like I'm stepping on her toes with the therapeutic relationship she has been developing with our child.

To me, "available for court's review" means a robed guy will skim the records for 2 minutes and wait for minor's counsel to recommend, which means a guy with a necktie will have skimmed it for 4 minutes before throwing a dart that tries not to alienate either parent but leans 5% into the right direction.  That's been my experience.

Actually, you gave me a good idea that the therapist's notes from the JOINT meeting should be made available to both parents.

Or maybe that's exactly what you meant.

I think THAT is an awesome idea.  The objective observer/facilitator's notes will trump any "recollection" that biomom or I have.

Thanks!

DD

[DecentDad]

I talked with the psychologist.

She wants to be clear that the purpose of this meeting is to try to get the parents on the same page with the child and NOT to fuel litigation.

To that end, she says she will only do it if we both sign a confidentiality agreement.

I expressed my concern that such agreements have not held water in the past with my ex, and that's why I want psych's notes from the session, to dispute any distortions ex may say in the future.

Psych said she has no problem giving us her notes from the session for the purpose of reminding ourselves of what was discussed.

She said that using these notes to correct any false information disclosed in future litigation would be reasonable.  She said that she'd likely also get personally involved in that situation, should either parent choose to create it.

BTW, her practice is 100% with kids of high conflict custody cases, and she's been doing it for 20 years.  I think she mostly just wants to help kids, not be a pawn for either parent.

1.  If I sign a confidentiality agreement wherein the parents also receive a copy of the counselor's notes from the meeting... what's the harm (aside from potentially sacrificing some valuable info for future litigation)?

2.  Given that I want this person to view me favorably and as a child-centered parent, do you agree that the potential consequence of NOT meeting with biomom and psych together is probably worse than meeting at this point?

DD

[socrateaser]

>1.  If I sign a confidentiality agreement wherein the parents
>also receive a copy of the counselor's notes from the
>meeting... what's the harm (aside from potentially sacrificing
>some valuable info for future litigation)?

If you both sign the NDA, and your ex starts revealing the info anyway, then you'll be right back to where you started, trying to use the notes as evidence and subpoenaing the therapist to testify.

Point is that unless this NDA permits you to sue the other parent for violation and provides some enforcement mechanism, such a substantial liquidated damages, it won't stop your ex from continuing the same tactics as she has in the past.

However, if the therapist won't get involved without the NDA, then you have no choice, unless you find some other therapist who will permit open access to the records.

>
>2.  Given that I want this person to view me favorably and as
>a child-centered parent, do you agree that the potential
>consequence of NOT meeting with biomom and psych together is
>probably worse than meeting at this point?

You'll have to decide. I would simply stand my ground -- no availablity of the records for litigation purposes -- no joint counseling sessions.

The point is that your ex isn't likely to change her tune as the result of any amount of counseling, correct? So, if the sessions are all kept secret, then of what use are they, except to give your ex ammo to use against you?

She has not refrained from using inadmissible evidence in the past, and if you do the counseling, she will do it again in the future. Can you count on the therapist being a willing intervenor if your ex discloses? Will the therapist state in writing that, if one party discloses anything to the court that this makes the records all open?

If not, then you're setting yourself up to have the records co-opted against you.

[DecentDad]

Soc,

Reminder:  after reported suicide threat made by 6 year old eight months ago, court ordered appointment of minor's counsel and ordered psychologist for child (psychologist was selected by minor's counsel).

At review hearing 30 days later, things got resolved.  I was happy with the psychologist (who saw through mom's hysteria) and requested the court to order on-going therapy for child with this particular person (over biomom's objection to it).  Order granted, with order carried-over stating that minor's counsel and psychologist can confer as needed without parental consent.

Child has met with psych approx 20 times.  I've met a few times alone with the psychologist for updates.  She repeatedly says she has no significant concerns about child in my home.  Some little things have come up now and then, when she and child invite me into their session to talk about it and come up with solutions.

She's told me that child adores stepmom, is proud of being a big sister, is really bonded closely with me.

She's alluded (not directly) that there are some issues in mom's home and that biomom doesn't seem to accept psych's reassurance that child is okay in my home.

I've asked her more than once that if she had any concerns about my home, would she ask me about it, as I appreciate directness.  She says yes.  But I never hear anything.

Two weeks ago, I asked her outright what her response would be if I went for 50/50, which the 2004 evaluator recommended should begin in 2006 (but never ordered as a step-up).

She said that she wouldn't advise on the custodial schedule but she would tell minor's counsel that child receives something very special and valuable in my home that child doesn't have in mother's home.

PRESENT DAY

Biomom is relentless on her campaign to prove that child is in peril in my home.  I see on the psychologist's billing that biomom regularly meets alone with psych.  Biomom has long history of trying to turn people against me.

Biomom has requested that we meet together with psychologist to discuss her concerns, cc'd psychologist on the email.

Before I could respond, psychologist replied and said it may be a good idea.

I've experienced in past discussions with biomom that she'll distort her recollection of discussions and use it in her pleadings.

Psychologist has suggested that we make a confidentiality agreement prior to the session.

Privately, in response to my concerns about meeting with biomom, psychologist has said she hopes we can allay biomom's fears about my home.  Psychologist already knows that biomom claims I tricked a polygraph, when I denied past accusations about my home, so I don't know how she thinks the fears can be alleviated.


1.  Realistically (looking at big picture), am I pretty much cornered into meeting together with biomom and psychologist?

2.  Biomom ignored an order to seal the 730 report and quoted extensively from it in a past pleading, with no comment from the court.  Realistically, what water would a confidentiality agreement hold if biomom decides to write a pleading with a quote of what she claims I say in the session?

3.  I could demand to record the session, but don't want to come across as a control freak to psychologist.  Thoughts?

Thanks for any opinion on this.

DD

[socrateaser]

>1.  Realistically (looking at big picture), am I pretty much
>cornered into meeting together with biomom and psychologist?

Yes, but your ace in the hole is to agree to meet only if all of the records are made available for future litigation. That will stop your ex cold -- I'll bet. And, it will make you appear to be completely open rather than trying to hide something.

>
>2.  Biomom ignored an order to seal the 730 report and quoted
>extensively from it in a past pleading, with no comment from
>the court.  Realistically, what water would a confidentiality
>agreement hold if biomom decides to write a pleading with a
>quote of what she claims I say in the session?

I would refuse any confidentiality agreement. I'd explain my reasons, but I would nevertheless refuse to meet except with the opportunity for full disclosure.

>
>3.  I could demand to record the session, but don't want to
>come across as a control freak to psychologist.  Thoughts?

I think that it's enough to simply want the therapist's records available for the court's review. Recording is likely overkill, but you could suggest that if your ex is afraid that the sessions will somehow be mischaracterized to negatively impact her, that you will happily agree to have the sessions recorded.

Now, recording seems like a protective mechanism, and if the ex refuses, it will look like she has something to hide.

[DecentDad]

Thanks for the reply

I believe that in California, a mental health professional of a minor has the right to deny access to records to either parent if it is not in the child's interest... regardless of legal custody.

At least from what the psychologist has said (not that I trust words until it's written in an affadavit), she doesn't have many concerns about child in my home.

So, it seems she's already leaning my way and I don't want her to feel like I'm stepping on her toes with the therapeutic relationship she has been developing with our child.

To me, "available for court's review" means a robed guy will skim the records for 2 minutes and wait for minor's counsel to recommend, which means a guy with a necktie will have skimmed it for 4 minutes before throwing a dart that tries not to alienate either parent but leans 5% into the right direction.  That's been my experience.

Actually, you gave me a good idea that the therapist's notes from the JOINT meeting should be made available to both parents.

Or maybe that's exactly what you meant.

I think THAT is an awesome idea.  The objective observer/facilitator's notes will trump any "recollection" that biomom or I have.

Thanks!

DD

[DecentDad]

I talked with the psychologist.

She wants to be clear that the purpose of this meeting is to try to get the parents on the same page with the child and NOT to fuel litigation.

To that end, she says she will only do it if we both sign a confidentiality agreement.

I expressed my concern that such agreements have not held water in the past with my ex, and that's why I want psych's notes from the session, to dispute any distortions ex may say in the future.

Psych said she has no problem giving us her notes from the session for the purpose of reminding ourselves of what was discussed.

She said that using these notes to correct any false information disclosed in future litigation would be reasonable.  She said that she'd likely also get personally involved in that situation, should either parent choose to create it.

BTW, her practice is 100% with kids of high conflict custody cases, and she's been doing it for 20 years.  I think she mostly just wants to help kids, not be a pawn for either parent.

1.  If I sign a confidentiality agreement wherein the parents also receive a copy of the counselor's notes from the meeting... what's the harm (aside from potentially sacrificing some valuable info for future litigation)?

2.  Given that I want this person to view me favorably and as a child-centered parent, do you agree that the potential consequence of NOT meeting with biomom and psych together is probably worse than meeting at this point?

DD

[socrateaser]

>1.  If I sign a confidentiality agreement wherein the parents
>also receive a copy of the counselor's notes from the
>meeting... what's the harm (aside from potentially sacrificing
>some valuable info for future litigation)?

If you both sign the NDA, and your ex starts revealing the info anyway, then you'll be right back to where you started, trying to use the notes as evidence and subpoenaing the therapist to testify.

Point is that unless this NDA permits you to sue the other parent for violation and provides some enforcement mechanism, such a substantial liquidated damages, it won't stop your ex from continuing the same tactics as she has in the past.

However, if the therapist won't get involved without the NDA, then you have no choice, unless you find some other therapist who will permit open access to the records.

>
>2.  Given that I want this person to view me favorably and as
>a child-centered parent, do you agree that the potential
>consequence of NOT meeting with biomom and psych together is
>probably worse than meeting at this point?

You'll have to decide. I would simply stand my ground -- no availablity of the records for litigation purposes -- no joint counseling sessions.

The point is that your ex isn't likely to change her tune as the result of any amount of counseling, correct? So, if the sessions are all kept secret, then of what use are they, except to give your ex ammo to use against you?

She has not refrained from using inadmissible evidence in the past, and if you do the counseling, she will do it again in the future. Can you count on the therapist being a willing intervenor if your ex discloses? Will the therapist state in writing that, if one party discloses anything to the court that this makes the records all open?

If not, then you're setting yourself up to have the records co-opted against you.