Opinions on this

[greatdad]

STBX has visitation rights only , I have full custody. Final "D" will occur after summer. Due to STBX refusing to talk or discuss anything without using lawyer we had to go back to Judge for summer schedule. She got a total of 5 weeks split up into 2 segments replacing the EOW schedule that was in place. STBX also was ordered to pay child support ( under employed, but will work on that ) as STBX  wasn't employed when first split and now is. It will be very little, but at least something and at least now is legally accountable .Seems that Judges are very touchy about amending any orders and I was told that my outcome is really good
( was it ?).
What is best way to keep track of income for someone who is on commission, that will actively conceal income?

[mistoffolees]

>STBX has visitation rights only , I have full custody. Final
>"D" will occur after summer. Due to STBX refusing to talk or

If divorce is not yet final, you can not claim to have won final custody. At this point, it's only temporary until the judge stamps it. Granted, the plan may be that they're going to stamp it as final, but watch your back.

>discuss anything without using lawyer we had to go back to
>Judge for summer schedule. She got a total of 5 weeks split up
>into 2 segments replacing the EOW schedule that was in place.
>STBX also was ordered to pay child support ( under employed,
>but will work on that ) as STBX  wasn't employed when first
>split and now is. It will be very little, but at least
>something and at least now is legally accountable .Seems that
>Judges are very touchy about amending any orders and I was
>told that my outcome is really good
>( was it ?).

Yes, it was.

>What is best way to keep track of income for someone who is on
>commission, that will actively conceal income?

Typically, they will set support based on the current situation and will not change it unless someone requests it at a later date. Since you don't have any legal way of knowing her income, there's no way for you to legitimately request more support later. Catch-22. You could ask in the final divorce hearing for the ex to be required to submit her tax forms to the court and recalculating support periodically, but don't count on getting it. Best bet is to be happy with what you have unless the situation changes.

[greatdad]

Maybe some mom's can help. STBX is a hair stylist, so how do they get paid and how can it be accounted for? Would subpoena the employer do it?

I felt that a mother would at least want to assist her children growing up, but I am dealing with a mother seemingly in name only,she is more interested in getting back a better car,than getting custody of the kids

[Jade]

Hairdressers get tips on top of what their employer pays them.

They are supposed to report these tips to their employer so that the employer may report it to the IRS.  

The next time that you file for modification, ask that she provide a tax return for at least the 3 previous years to filing (or however long it was since the divorce, it's usually 2-3 years before modifications).

Since tips are usually done with cash (the ones that are charged on the credit card will show up on the W-2 form), you probably won't be able to find out exactly how much she makes.  

[mistoffolees]

>Hairdressers get tips on top of what their employer pays
>them.
>
>They are supposed to report these tips to their employer so
>that the employer may report it to the IRS.  
>
>The next time that you file for modification, ask that she
>provide a tax return for at least the 3 previous years to
>filing (or however long it was since the divorce, it's usually
>2-3 years before modifications).
>
>Since tips are usually done with cash (the ones that are
>charged on the credit card will show up on the W-2 form), you
>probably won't be able to find out exactly how much she makes.
>

That's all true in principle. In practice, forget it. The court will impute minimum wage and it would cost him more than it's worth to establish that she has a higher income - unless she's working at some posh NYC hair salon.

Furthermore, it's going to be tough to convince the court to even let him file for modification. They will ask for grounds and he doesn't have any. As long as her income is reported or imputed when the divorce is finalized, how is he going to show cause for a change in support as long as she stays on the same job? (If she gets promoted to CEO of Global Hair Salon, LLC, that would be a different story). That means he won't even get to subpoena her tax returns (even if they ARE reported correctly, which they usually are not).

It just sounds to me like he's going to buy himself a lot of expense and headache with little or no benefit.

[jcsct5]

Mist your posts are written is such a fashion that the poster may assume you are an attorney and that you are giving legal advice that they could rely on. You seem to be very definite in your posts about what is and isn't allowed and what will be done in different situations. I don't know where you live, and your comments may be very true for your area, but I for one can vouch for the fact that it is not so where I live.

What is important to understand is that not only is each state different in how they handle family law matters, but also each county within each state often deals with family law issues differently.

I think its important not to mislead the posters (unintentionally I'm sure) by letting them think that you are an attorney. Several weeks back some posters even had a thread on here in which they said they felt that you may be Soc in hiding (if I remember properly you stated then that you are not an attorney at all). I feel that they thought this because you write your posts in such an authoritative way that implies you know all the laws and what is allowed and not allowed and you tell people what is going to happen. I know you haven't ever flat out said you were an attorney but you are aware that some posters think you are (or thought you were) and you continue to write your posts in the same way and don't give any disclosure about you not being an attorney, that you are not giving legal advice, or that you are writing from your own experiences.

All of us have learned so much about the legal process in our own experiences and what you and other posters here have to offer could be of tremendous help to someone. Making it clear however that they are just that, "our experiences", not the absolute of what is and isn't in family law is necessary. Especially in this forum where people have gone for years to get advise from a licensed attorney (Soc) and people still come here thinking they will get just that.

I hope you don't take offense as I do think your posts have value and I think that your experiences and what you have observed can very much be helpful to posters on here.


For the original poster...

Often hairdressers are self employed and only rent a station at a salon (unless she works for a place like Great Clips or something). Anyway they not only get their fees, but also they get tips on top of that. I pay my hairdresser $100 to color and cut my hair ($87 charge and $13 tip), however it takes her 2and a half hours to do my hair so she is only making around $40 and hour to do my hair. An established hairdresser with regular clients would have pretty consistent appointments, however someone just starting out would have a very spotty calendar. Also my hairdresser is very reasonable in prices, my friend pays almost double what I do for the same thing at a different salon.

If she is an actual employee of a salon then it shouldn't be too difficult to determine how much she makes because she would have pay stubs and tips "should" be reported on them. Each jurisdiction handles these situations differently, here in my area a judge would likely take the last several pay stubs and average them to determine the amount (unless it is lower than minimum wage, then they would impute that). I know in the restaraunt business it is common for tip earners to have their entire wage go to taxes and they only take home the tips. I don't know if the hair industry works the same way or not.

If she is self employed it gets slightly trickier. However self employed hairdressers keep appointment books with names of customers and the times of the appointments and often they will include what is being done to the client. She should also have a fee schedule that would say how much she charges for different things. I would think your attorney could subpoena those records and her bank records to show deposits and you could make an argument regarding how much she actually made that way.   It would likely be terribly expensive though and likely not worth the effort.

I don't know where you live or the rules of your area. But I am in CA and in my county all you need is a change in income of either party of $50 a month to get a modification of support. This mean you could file for modification at any time, even every month if you wanted. I know that some areas only allow modifications every two years.

I suspect that you are between a rock and a hard place because if you actually need the child support then you will likely need to spend a great deal of money to prove what she is making (if she is self employed) and then it would take many months of the increased amount of child support to ever make up for what you spent. You would likely be better off keeping your money and using it to support the children than spending it on a court battle that may or may not be worth the investment.

Good luck.

[mistoffolees]

>Mist your posts are written is such a fashion that the poster
>may assume you are an attorney and that you are giving legal
>advice that they could rely on. You seem to be very definite

I have stated repeatedly that I am not giving legal advice and am not an attorney.

>in your posts about what is and isn't allowed and what will be
>done in different situations. I don't know where you live, and
>your comments may be very true for your area, but I for one
>can vouch for the fact that it is not so where I live.

I didn't state anything 'definite', but most of what I stated is almost universal. For example, I said that he's going to need to show cause to get the court to reconsider support at a later date. There may be exceptions, but that's nearly universally true.

>
>What is important to understand is that not only is each state
>different in how they handle family law matters, but also each
>county within each state often deals with family law issues
>differently.

Yes, but some things are pretty standard.

>
>I think its important not to mislead the posters

I've specifically stated repeatedly that I'm not an attorney. How am I misleading anyone?

>(unintentionally I'm sure) by letting them think that you are
>an attorney. Several weeks back some posters even had a thread
>on here in which they said they felt that you may be Soc in
>hiding (if I remember properly you stated then that you are
>not an attorney at all). I feel that they thought this because
>you write your posts in such an authoritative way that implies
>you know all the laws and what is allowed and not allowed and
>you tell people what is going to happen. I know you haven't
>ever flat out said you were an attorney but you are aware that
>some posters think you are (or thought you were) and you
>continue to write your posts in the same way and don't give
>any disclosure about you not being an attorney, that you are
>not giving legal advice, or that you are writing from your own
>experiences.

People can think whatever they want. I've stated repeatedly that I'm not an attorney and am not giving legal advice. Furthermore, my most common advice is to seek a local attorney.

But there are times when I'm pretty sure that my answer is universally true. And if so, I'm going to present it that way. I'm sure that I'm wrong some times, but so is everyone here.

>

>
>
>For the original poster...
>

[snip a bunch of stuff]

>
>Good luck.

None of that changes what I said. If he wants to change support later, he has to show a cause of action. How is he going to do so without her financial records? And how is he going to get her financial records without a court order?

Bottom line is that if she claims (and can document) an income when support is established, he's likely to be stuck with that because it's going to be hard to get a court to reconsider support without evidence and it's hard to (legally) get evidence without a court order.

Are there exceptions? Of course. But in reality, it's not likely to happen unless she takes a new job or gets a promotion or something.