children don't want to visit dad

[ctmom]

My 2 boys, 13 and 11, do not enjoy visiting their dad every other weekend.  He makes excuses and delays playing with them (he's always been like that).  He takes them places, but the minute the boys start bickering, their dad yells, swears, demeans and sometimes hits them.  They both have said they do not want to go back.  Can I legally keep them at home?  They have no friends in his neighborhood (which is their own fault). I am torn between having them visit their dad and being miserable those 2 days and keeping them home, dealing with his wrath.  then I'm nervous that if I do send them over there, he will take out his frustration on them.  I don't think he would seriously hurt them, but I have never advocated spanking let alone abuse.

Do I have the right and obligation to allow my children to pick whether or not they visit their dad or do I have to make them go?:(

[Ref]

It is up to you to support his time with the kids. His parenting may be different than yours. It is normal for dads to have different styles than moms, usually a harder stance. It doesn't mean he is wrong. It sounds like he is punishing them for misbehaving. Maybe you would do something different, but it doesn't sound like he is being awful.

I have to say, my mom had a terrible relationship with my dad after they split-up. She never made going to his home an option, even though I didn't want to go, I just did because it was like a family obligation. I admire my mom for doing this even through all of her hurt and my complaints. She kept me from the burden of having to decide between them. She allowed me to have great memories (even if I didn't appreciate it at the time) that I would have not had if I had the choice at the time.

Believe me, at their ages they probably don't enjoy being around either parent. Does that mean they can decide not to come home at night because they don't like being around you or disagree with your punishments?

Do you have a decent relationship with your ex? If so, maybe you can suggest things in his area the kids would enjoy.

Keep discussions of visitation with your boys positive. Point out good things that happened.

If there is real abuse that is different. It doesn't really sound like you are worried for their health but for their comfort.  I understand it is hard to see them unhappy but in my opinion, it is not a good lesson to teach kids that you can avoid your family responsibilities because you would rather be somewhere else.

Best wishes

Ref

[ctmom]

Thank you very much.  It is so hard, not knowing what goes on and if I'm really hearing what happened or only hearing the bad stuff.  They both love their dad, and I'm a mother hen and am very protective.  I want to see that they are enjoying their life as much as possible.  I hate having them leave for their visits.  It really crushes me and I have anxiety attacks the week before every visit, even though we have been divorced for almost 5 years.

[mistoffolees]

>Thank you very much.  It is so hard, not knowing what goes on
>and if I'm really hearing what happened or only hearing the
>bad stuff.  They both love their dad, and I'm a mother hen and
>am very protective.  I want to see that they are enjoying
>their life as much as possible.  I hate having them leave for
>their visits.  It really crushes me and I have anxiety attacks
>the week before every visit, even though we have been divorced
>for almost 5 years.

You might want to consider counseling for yourself - both in terms of dealing with the anxiety and in terms of helping you to understand your own boundaries. There are certain things that are within your control and some that aren't. The kids time with their father is not within your control, nor are you responsible for it. As long as there are no concerns about the kids' safety when they're with the father, I agree with Ref. You have a responsibility to support the father in seeing the kids but your responsibility ends there. Let it go.

I also agree with Ref's comments about 'real abuse'. This is a fine line to walk because it's impossible to draw a line between when yelling (and even spanking) is considered OK and when it is not. It depends on the local culture, the court, and even the specific judge. If you're concerned about 'real abuse' (whatever that is), you need to take action. If you are not concerned about the children's health and safety, but are concerned about bad parenting, you might consider addressing it with the father (or asking a neutral third party like a pastor or family friend to address it).

[Kitty C.]

One very important thing to keep in mind:  you are NOT responsible for your children's happiness.  That may go against the grain of everything you believe, but it's true.  Look at it this way.  If you manage to always make sure that your kids are happy, what happens when they get out into the real world and face their first disappointments?  How will they handle them if they don't have the experience?  That is what this whole process is.. a learning experience for them.  And learning to deal with disappointment and not having fun all the time is part of it.

This whole issue rings way too close to home for me, because my SS's BM is like this, but in spades.  What's worse, she doesn't have a clue and wouldn't even think of questioning it.  So I commend you for at least coming to this forum and asking what must be hard questions for you.  Being very protective is okay, especially when they're out playing next to a busy street, but you have to draw the line on other circumstances and loosen the apron strings.

I also agree with the other poster...if you are having real anxiety attacks before each visit, I would strongly recommend some kind of counseling to work thru those issues.  The last thing you want is to transfer those issues to your children, who have no clue how to deal with them and certainly don't need the added stress.

[ctmom]

Thanks for the advise.  My kids are so confused right now.  Everyone is right that they need to find their own happiness and if going to dad's is boring, they are old enough to do something about it.  They need to get outside and not be slugs on the couch.  He lives in a family neighborhood.

A bad thing my younger one said  and I don't know if it is true, is that his dad told them if they don't want to come over they don't have to.  That has to be horrible for a kid to hear.

I hope that isn't the case, but if it is, I'll keep them.

[notnew]

You totally missed the whole point of some of these posts. YOU have a problem that YOU need help with. YOUR problem is affecting your children and their relationship with their father.

YOU need counseling to help you get over their dad and learn how to move on with your life. The kids KNOW you are having anxiety attacks over the thought of them going to their dad's for the weekend. They KNOW you would prefer them to stay at home with you. Why are you putting them in that position and how can you live with yourself putting guilt trips on your children?  YOU are making them choose and they are caught in the middle.

How much of your current circumstances do you blame on the dad? How do you speak of their dad to them? Do you take a neutral stance and encourage them to have a relationship with him? I assume from  your posts that the answer to that is no. Have you ever blamed their dad for them not being able to have things or you not having money to do things for them? You have to be careful in the things you say and do. Kids are not stupid. You are living in the past. You are holding on to your anger over the break-up and they know it.

I told my daughter if she didn't want to come anymore she didn't have to and I haven't seen her in months. I resorted to that after  YEARS of intense PAS. You need to read up on PAS and see what some of the behavior patterns of alienating parents are. From your posts, I think you probably display many alienating behaviors.

What kind of leisure activities do you enjoy? What do you do on the weekends when they are gone? Sit and pine for them? I feel like you posted also that you cry over them being gone. Why in the world do you do that? If they go to a friends house for a sleepover, do you fret and cry then? If they stay at your parent's house for the weekend, do you miss them terribly and cry? You have to put this into perspective. YOU chose the man to have children with. You have not mentioned that he was abusive in any way or a convicted criminal or anything else that would justify keeping his kids from him. The only thing I can see that he has committed is becoming divorced from you. If there is something you haven't revealed, then I may be wrong, but you didn't provide any information showing him as an unfit parent. Why was he okay to be your husband, have kids with, and raise them together before and now he is not?

Everyone yells at kids sometimes. If you don't ever raise your voice to your kids, I suspect you are not providing a very structured or disciplined household. Kids need struture and discipline. They need to have consequences for misbehaviors. If you are not providing a strong parental presence for them, then dad is most likely trying to deal with that when he has them (and THAT will never work). Parents MUST be on the same page and parent together (even if they are divorced) in order to provide a solid foundation for children to grow up on. For whatever reason, your children are not getting that. I do not know what dad's side of the story is, but from what you have presented, the kids are dealing with a clingly, emotionally dependent mother who lacks strong parenting skills. What this will develop into is children who feel emotionally responsible for their mother, blame everything and everyone else for all the negative consequences in her and their lives even though they are mostly responsible for their plight, manipulate their mother since there are no consequences for their behavior and resist anyone who tries to impose struture and discipline on their lives. You will be dealing with children whom you have no control over and things will continue to go downhill from there.

Get a life for yourself outside of the kids. Go out when they are gone. Date. You don't have to bring someone home to meet them until you feel you have met someone special and you will know when that time is right. Involve yourself in activities that are adult orientated so you can get some time away. YOU need to find YOURSELF. You are not an extension of your children. You are an individual person, not just a mom. Your kids need to begin in the next few years to see you as an adult person who happens to be their mother. NOT a mother who is high up on a pedestal. When the kids see you are a person, they will feel they are their own selves as well and this will help them to live better lives. Seeing your parents as adults is a respect issue and I believe they develop more self-respect when they recognize their parents are PEOPLE and not their parents who they can always cling too like little children. I hope you understand what I am saying here.

Most importantly, put the relationship YOU had with dad in the past. The NOW is about the relationship they have with dad. Think about your relationship with your dad. What kinds of memories do you want them to have of their childhood? YOU have the power to make it a good experience for them or something they will need years of therapy to recover from (if they ever make it to therapy).

Please stop what you are doing now. Encourage the kids to go. Maybe call dad and tell him that the kids would really like to see XX movie (or whatever activity) and you wanted to let him know in case he wanted to take them. Tell him that you have a lot of opportunities to do special things with them and you want him to have a chance too. Keep him up to date on what's going in in school, etc. There is no reason not to keep him involved. The more information you give him and the more you encourage the kids to be involved with him in a positive way, the more of the "single" parent load will be taken off of your shoulders. Stop living like a martyr. You are creating your own suffering in order to raise yourself up to some higher level. You don't need that. Feel good about yourself just because of who you are. Not because of the suffering you are enduring and the load that you are carrying for others. Get rid of that stuff and be free of it. Once you are happy within yourself, everyone and everything around you will be better off.

Please go to at least a few counseling sessions to get a professional, neutral opinion on the matter. I truly think that if you can get into a better frame of mind and different mindset about things, life will be much better for you and your children.

[mistoffolees]

>Thanks for the advise.  My kids are so confused right now.
>Everyone is right that they need to find their own happiness
>and if going to dad's is boring, they are old enough to do
>something about it.  They need to get outside and not be slugs
>on the couch.  He lives in a family neighborhood.
>
>A bad thing my younger one said  and I don't know if it is
>true, is that his dad told them if they don't want to come
>over they don't have to.  That has to be horrible for a kid to
>hear.
>
>I hope that isn't the case, but if it is, I'll keep them.

I guess it didn't sink in the first time, so I'll be firmer. (sorry if it sounds offensive):

STAY OUT OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE KIDS AND THEIR FATHER. It's none of your business (unless there's massive physical or emotional abuse - and even then, you should get a counselor involved rather than handling it yourself).

It's not your job to ensure the kids' happiness. It's not your job to monitor their relationship with their father. It's not your job to make everything nice. YOU are responsible for your relationship with the kids. Their father is responsible for HIS relationship with the kids.

The kids have the right to see their father and you need to support that. If he doesn't pick them up, then you keep them. Other than that, STAY THE HECK OUT OF THEIR RELATIONSHIP.

If they come to you feeling sad, then you listen. Period. No need to editorialize or offer solutions. They're big kids - they'll figure things out on their own.

Believe me, everyone will be a lot happier that way.

[ctmom]

to the last two replies, let me say this.  When their father and I were married, he was a slug.  He did nothing around the house and the kids knew it.  When they asked him to play, he always made an excuse (like--as soon as the "game is over"  or after I read the paper). This was the relationship they had when we were married.

then he met someone else, even though he claimed our marriage was fine.  I was actually glad because I often thought about leaving him but wanted to stay together for the kids sake.

3 years ago, I met a wonderful man and married him after 2-1/2 weeks.  I am very happy.  He helps me discipline the children since I had no help with that when I was married before.  The children walked all over me and I was very distraught.  they boys are much better now, listening better etc. and helping around the house.  Sometimes they question why they have to do things (like keep their room clean or take out the garbage), but for the most part things around our house are good.

Their father is not a disciplinarian and never was.  He was hit a lot when he was a kid and I'm glad he does not do that to his own children. (he knows if that happened, I'd never let the boys around him). We have a fine relationship.  We can talk and discuss things.  We do not avoid each other; we have moved on.  We live within a few miles of each other which makes it convenient for the kids.  By no means do I miss him or the crummy relationship we had.  Believe me, I know I am where God wants me to be and I'm very happy.

I never speak poorly of their father in front of them.  I always encourage them to visit on dad's weekends.  It is almost forceful sometimes if they really don't want to go.

Their dad is consumed with his own life and his own happiness.  I really think he sees the kids as an obligation, not as a gift.  They are precious children and I want their childhood to be as happy and fulfilled as possible.  I will do whatever it takes to get that accomplished.  If that means I am overprotective, so be it.  I only want my boys to grow up emotionally stable the way I was brought up.  I have a great relationship with my parents and I want the same for my children.

[Ref]

You have to understand many of us are on the side where mom's are encouraging either blatenlty or subtley the children not to see us. It is heartbreaking and can cause people not to see that you are human and that you are here to TRY to do the right thing. I really commend that.

Let me tell you about my situation growing up and maybe it will help you with your kids.

My dad and mom split when I was 12. My mom did badmouth him infront of us. She did things like when my dad sent flowers to the house for me she would comment how much she hated carnations. It was a subtle but constant capain of her trying to make sure I loved her more.

On the other hand, she bought us bday and fathers day cards for us to sign and give my dad. She made sure we saw him whenever we could. He was going on with a new life. He was gay and trying to figure out what that means to a 40 year old guy. He was never good with us kids anyway. My mom said that she had to force him to see us at times. It is hard to say if that is true or not, but I think I believe that one. He was trying to start a new life and it was complex enough without us there.
He really didn't enjoy being a dad (such a stark contrast to my DH). During visitation, he would give me money and drop me off at the mall for a few hours. We would rent movies (I liked Freddy Kruger) and watch them in silence. He would make pizza with us or hotdogs. That would be it. I really think my dad wasn't very good with kids. He loved us but was really awkward with us.

It didn't make me want to see him at all. I believed the cruel things my mom said about him and between that , being a teen and the boring time I had I really didn't want to go. He also lived at times a 4 hour drive away. UGH.

Now I look back at my poor awkward dad and I feel for him. He was confused and really loved us but was unable to express it in any other way than to exist around us. I think back at the make-your-own pizza days and I think about how sad it would have been if I missed that memory because I was a normal BORED teen and my mom allowed me to choose.

I super love my dad. I think he needed us to be adults before he got comfortable with us and that is OK. He is a great man and I cherish ever single memory I had and have with him. Every week my husband and I do the make-your-own pizza thing with my dad's sauce recipe. It always makes me think of the little bit of connection I had with my dad growing up.

Please keep in mind that ever opportunity your boys have with their dad, the more likely they are going to have that little memory of connecting with him. It really is a gift that you are giving them that they will hate now but feel fortunate in the long run to have.

I do agree that you need to help yourself with the seperation anxiety you are experienceing. You are human and it is very hard. Try to do something you look forward to whe the boys are out like go to a spa or watch a chick-flick that is a little racier. You need adult time too and you have to look at this as an opportunity to grow yourself as a woman. This will be great for you and let your boys feel less responsible for your needs.  

Best wishes
Ref