Summer vacation question

[wysiwyg]

Opinions please:

Order reads that each parent gets 1/2 the summer vacation.  The order also spells out which holidays go to each parent in what year and that holiday take precidence over summer vacation.  

My theory has been to take the time the child is out of school to the time child returns, subtract the total holiday time (which includes fathers day, 4th holiday and both parents b days = 4 total holidays) then split the remaining summer time in half.  I feel this is fair because holidays take precidence over summer vacation.  QUESTION: would you use this theory or just divide the total summer vacation in half?  The order does not specifically say to do this however my belief is that since holiday takes priority it can not be considered part of the 1/2 either parent receives........ thoughts?

The other problem is that the order also says that when one parent has the child for more than 14 days the other parent can exercise an evening during the week, and that the summer time MAY be consecutive or split into 2 segments.  The child and the mediator both believe (and was mediated the last 2 years) that the child is old enough to not need to visit with the other parent for three hours during the week, child is 15.  Thus we have always done the summer schedule as 2 weeks with mom, 2 weeks with dad, for the entire summer which gives each parent 3 segments.  If we schedule 2 segments then she will be over here every week for her 3 hours, but due to Dad's work schedule he is unable to see child during the week, and she will not allow dad an alternate time for this three hours, if we schedule three segments BM has threatened legal intervention for what we have exercised for the last several years.  QUESTION:  can anyone see any other alternative I have not yeat explored, which alternative would you use?

[Kboeds]

I'm a little confused.

You said you have always alternated every two weeks and now BM says she won't do it that way? What is BM's complaint?

Question. You have always taken child for 3 hours during the week and now child doesn't want to do that anymore?

The court order states either consecutively or in 2 segments? What is wrong with 2 segments if the teen child has stated that they do not want to do the weekly 3 hour visit. Does the teen feel the same about that 3 hours when away from BM for 1/2 the summer?

As far as the first part it seems to me that it would work out the same either way. The holidays are in addition to your regularly scheduled time unless you already have the child during that time.
Lets say Dad takes the child from June 10 to July 22 (6 weeks) If this is the year that dad gets 4th of July then dad already has the child. If it is BM's year then BM gets the child for the Holiday and then the child is returned to dad. Same would apply to other holidays and b-days. I would think that there is a chance someone is going to get more days then the other no matter how you do it.

If the teen and the mediator have stated that the weekly visits should be left up to the child then find out what the child wants to do. Maybe once evening every two weeks if the child will be gone for 6 weeks at a time. Just go to dinner and catch up on things.

KB

[wysiwyg]

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Just to make it diffucult, she now does not want us to have the three segments because three was not stated in the order and if we take 2 segments then it is more than 14 days in a row, this is to force us to let her have the child during the week, which he does not want to do - mediator agrees, but she now refuses to go to mediation which is court ordered BTW.  We believe the court order does not say we have to do it in 2 segments and it has been mediated 2 on2 off  for the last several years.

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No, not since the start of a new job with weird hours making it impossible to see the child for the time during the week. I asked BM to allow me to keep the child overnight on my Sunday with him being returned to school the next morning.  She will not do this bacuse it means more overnights for me and less CS for her. THis has been an issue we have been trying to resolve (or more correctly I have been trying to get her to talk about it) for 2 years.  Can not go to court, judge does not want to see us and she refuses mediation.

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Yes. She does not allow him input as to time he wants to stay with us - he is only allowed to tell us when he will NOT see us.  

As far as it working out the same either way you are typically correct, but we are dealing with someone who changes her mind at every turn, so we try and make it rock solid so there is no arguing.  We should not have to spend so many months trying to work out something so simple.  I guess alot of us here are in the same boat.

[CustodyIQ]

Hi,

I disagree with your perspective that summer vacation equals time between first day and last day of school minus holiday time.

If that were the case, your orders would specify it.  However, your orders actually state that holiday time takes precedent over vacation time, insinuating that it OVERRIDES what would otherwise be vacation time (i.e., versus a clause that might have said, "For the purpose of splitting summer vacation, holidays shall not be considered").  So, I think your orders are pretty clear on that issue.

Whomever exercises holiday during the summer gets extra time.

I do agree with your perspective on the alternating 2 week periods.  The primary reason why I agree is because it has been well established that you have been doing it this way for at least two summers.

There is no agreement to change how things have been done, so things should remain the same.

If you were to take it to a judge, the judge would probably lean in your direction.  

You'd just present it as, "I don't know what the problem is.  We've done it this way for two summers, this is what our child wants.  But the mother is now raising conflict over it, so it appears we need the court to specifically say how to do our summer vacation; given that the mother abruptly is changing her mind on how we've historically done it without incident."

[wysiwyg]

Any normal person would agree or atleast listen to alternative options when it comes to parenting times and schedules, but as you and many of us here realize, we are forced to ask these ridiculous questions to explore every single alternative under the sun in order to cover our behinds and not get raked over the coals.  (As was our case this past Christmas when she decided to do something differnet than the last 2 mediated Christmases and then "1/2" of the Christmas break suddenly becasue her 8 days to our 2) and FYI in the last 12 summers she has not ever been able to ok a summer - it has to go through the courts, the judge, her attorney, the GAL, the mediator all at a significant cost, and after nearly 100K in attorney's fees, I am about done with it all, there is NOTHING left to fight with.  

We typically try and schedule our time during all holidays in the summer (there are 4 for us) as we believe this to be fair, and not seperate of the summer time.  

I asked my question as like I said most would not give it a second thought, but in dealing with the ex, once you figure the time between last and first day of school, who gets what holidays - what then becomes 1/2 the summer?  BM would take her 1/2 minus the holidays, and since holidays exceeds summer we end up giveing her an entire week of holidays and viola she gets 6 weeks of summer and we get 4, see where I am coming from?  I think the best way to do this is to just schedule our time and hers the INCLUDE the holidays, but nothing will be that simple, ya know?

[MixedBag]

after reading the other responses...

You say your order specifies who gets what holidays over the summer.

Well exactly WHO gets WHAT days?

Then, I say you take from the first day after school dismisses and count the days to the day before school resumes.

Divide that number by two. (I respectfully disagree that you subtract the holidays and then divide like what you said).

Dad gets 1/2, mom gets the other half.

If Dad takes the first half, and all of the holidays fall in that half, the dad forfeits the holidays mom is supposed to have this summer.

If Dad takes more than 2 weeks in a row, mom gets a mid-week per the court order.  And the same holds true for Dad, right?  (just making sure I understand the order)

It really doesn't matter WHAT the mediator says, what matters is what the order says.  UNLESS what was agreed upon was turned into a court order.  After that, the child is 15, don't forget that.

What would really happen if someone showed up during "Mom's time" for the mid-week time with dad, to pick up the child (of 15) and the child left?  (Nothing)

Are you telling me that mom would physically restrain the child from departing the house for those three hours?

And how does child really feel about spending those three hours with the opposite parent?  

It's in the court order that it must be allowed by the parent....

[CustodyIQ]

Just go for the alternating 2 week chunks, and the holidays will fall where they fall.

Any judge would find that reasonable and easiest.

All the counting and calculations that you're trying to introduce is just chaotic and nit-picky... over time, everything will balance out.

If you've had that much trouble with every major holiday and summer, then it's time to nail down specific schedules with days/times, not just arbitrary things like "half of this, half of that."

The more specific the order is, the less room there is for conflict.

E.g., "Summer vacation begins from the end of the last day of school to the beginning of the first day of school.  On even years, the mother will have the children from the end of the last day of school until 9am on the first Monday that is more than one week away.  The father will then have the children from 9am on that Monday until 9am on the Monday two weeks in advance.  Such alternating 2 week periods will continue until the first day of school, at which time the parent currently exercising custody shall take them to school.  On odd years, the father shall be the first parent to exercise custody during summer vacation on the same schedule outlined herein."

It is CRAZY to have to get that specific, but that is the only thing that will eliminate your chaos.

Once I nailed down specifics like that, and left no room for interpretation, so much conflict and chaos disappeared.  Sure, my ex has still tried to argue, but I now simply say, "Orders are very clear, let's please follow them."

[wysiwyg]

Thank you both for your responses, I know it is crazy to get specific, but that is what BM does and we ALYWAYS loose out.  I posted here at Xmas as well on first half second half - yes the order is specific, but guess who got 8 days to our 2?  Hardly 1/2 eh?

As I said with summer - I posed 2 scenerios, I try and do as you all suggested, take the # of days and schedule our summer time during the holidays.  Therefore there is nothing that can be said - errr so we thought.  She has threatened to take  us to court if we do that this year!  BM does NOT want us to have the 2 weeks on 2 off deal, this is becasue that means she then would not get her 3 hours during the week, and not that we are trying to prevent that, please understand we are trying to eliminate a confrontation, BM is NOT allowed on the property, yells in our home, holds open our door and calls police on neighbors who complain about her demenor when here.  SO to eliminate all that confrontation in front of all our children, we remove it from the formula.  As to the questions that BM restrains the child from coming with us for the three hours, the answer is YES< and there are several contempt ORDERS that verify that she has done that.  Another reason to not add that to our situaiton.

It does matter what our mediator says, because the mediator has been granted by the court to have the power to make decisions that can not be overtured by the court except for abuse of discretion.  So if Mediator says BM you WILL turn over the child to BF for his fathers day weekend and she does not, (and she did) then it is contempt that needs sto be filed.

Mixed - to answer your question about teh three hours - he really does not like it - as he is busy with several activities during the week that BM signed him up for he only has one evening a week to come home from school and get on his homework and unwind.  

Again thanks for the suggestions, I believe that as you and I said, we will take the total half and schedule our time during our holidays.  OK one last question popped into my head ----- waht if it is your holiday and for three years in a row (this being the third) you as a part of the scout troop your child attends schedules its camp week DURING your holiday?  Do you allow the child to go - even though the child has been to the same camp 4 times a year for 4 year stratight?  (PS we have given in for the last 2 of our summers on this, its getting old to me and the child would rather do something different as child told us, since BM attends the weekends and week long camps with!  Child feels that they are old enough not to have mommy attend camp.)

[CustodyIQ]

If it's your custodial time, holiday or vacation or normal, just do whatever you want.

You're posing a parenting question now, not a legal one.

If the kid likes camp and doesn't want it interrupted, then I (as a parent) would probably just let him stay at camp while I celebrate July 4 (or whatever) without him.

[MixedBag]

you said:  "I try and do as you all suggested, take the # of days and schedule our summer time during the holidays."

think about it -- if you schedule "your time" and NOT include the holidays, then you get those IN ADDITION to your time.....

You never answered when the holidays fall that belong to Dad.

If you want to eliminate confrontation, you give her no reason to get out of the car -- have son ready to head out the door when she arrives and video tape it all.  Believe me, with 3 divorces, two of which are -- well, we have learned to manage confrontration.


You said:  "It does matter what our mediator says, because the mediator has been granted by the court to have the power to make decisions that can not be overtured by the court except for abuse of discretion. "

So that's IN AN ORDER?  Highly unusual for a judge to delegate that authority to a mediator.



You said:  "So if Mediator says BM you WILL turn over the child to BF for his fathers day weekend and she does not, (and she did) then it is contempt that needs sto be filed.
"

I absolutely agree -- clear order, denied time, file.

for the three hours, your example is for during the school year, but your original post is about the summer so school is not in session.