fighting

[2dvldog]

ok bare with me I'm new on here. I have 2 children with my ex..ages 7 and 6. 2 children with my current wife ages 3 and 1. I  have been divorced for 6 years. She had primary physical and joint legal at time of divorce. Every year I have gained more time with the children. In '95 I gained joint physical. since then both children have started school. They have been at the top of thier class both years. Thier teachers have raved about how they love having them in thier classes. My son (7) plays soccer and has a great time with it and my daughter (6) is into dance. They are both very intelligent and polite children with alot of friends. My current wife is very onvolved with the children as well and this seems to be a point of contention with the ex. She filed a few months ago and we went through mediation where the mediator suggested a change in schedule but maintaining joint physical. We then went through mediation where the master changed the schedule but said he saw no reason to change the custody status because the children seemed to be thriving. She now has filed for trial under the reason that I work and she doesnt so she can provide a more stable environment because shes home. And also that she feels my wife is trying to usurp her as the kids mother. Should I worry about this?

[mistoffolees]

IMHO, it's always worth being concerned, but you have a lot of things in your favor.

First, courts don't like changing the status quo if it's working.

Second, you've been through mediation where the mediator didn't feel that a change was needed (although I suspect it was either a poor mediator or wasn't actually a mediation at all since mediators are not supposed to express their opinions that openly).

Third, it sounds like some kind of GAL recommended that custody remain the same.

Get a good attorney and do what they tell you. One thing to watch out for - if she's going to claim that your wife is trying to usurp her role, then you need to make sure that you're not having the kids call your wife 'mom' or anything like that because that WOULD give her ammunition.

[Jade]

>ok bare with me I'm new on here. I have 2 children with my
>ex..ages 7 and 6. 2 children with my current wife ages 3 and
>1. I  have been divorced for 6 years. She had primary physical
>and joint legal at time of divorce. Every year I have gained
>more time with the children. In '95 I gained joint physical.
>since then both children have started school. They have been
>at the top of thier class both years. Thier teachers have
>raved about how they love having them in thier classes. My son
>(7) plays soccer and has a great time with it and my daughter
>(6) is into dance. They are both very intelligent and polite
>children with alot of friends. My current wife is very
>onvolved with the children as well and this seems to be a
>point of contention with the ex. She filed a few months ago
>and we went through mediation where the mediator suggested a
>change in schedule but maintaining joint physical. We then
>went through mediation where the master changed the schedule
>but said he saw no reason to change the custody status because
>the children seemed to be thriving. She now has filed for
>trial under the reason that I work and she doesnt so she can
>provide a more stable environment because shes home. And also
>that she feels my wife is trying to usurp her as the kids
>mother. Should I worry about this?

She has a very good argument about her having the kids during the week while you are working.  At least during your working hours.  

While your wife is their stepmom and is good to them, she is not their mother.

If I were a judge (and I am not), I would side with giving more time to the bio parent who is capable of being with them instead of a daycare provider or a stepmom.  

[2dvldog]

So you're suggesting it would be best f or neither parent to work? I always thought I was the responsible one for providing. She surely hasn't refused her support checks. I would quit working if it meant that I got to see children more but then they wouldnt be able to eat so I guess that's out.

[Jade]

>So you're suggesting it would be best f or neither parent to
>work? I always thought I was the responsible one for
>providing. She surely hasn't refused her support checks. I
>would quit working if it meant that I got to see children more
>but then they wouldnt be able to eat so I guess that's out.


First, she has had 3 MORE children.  It doesn't pay for her to work.  By the time that she and her current husband were done paying for child care costs, they would be dipping into what he earned to pay for the childcare.  And that is something that she and her husband have obviously taken into consideration.  

It is cheaper for her AND for you if she stays home.  Because you would be paying more than the $600 a month in child support that you pay now to cover your portion of child care costs.  

And since she IS a sahm, the courts just may (and should, and if you were the sahp, they should do the same for you) choose to have her be the one to care for them over a daycare provider and a stepmom.  And if they take the children's best interests into consideration, they will.

The courts can also have it set up to where, on the days that you would normally have them, you can pick them up from her home after you are done with work.

The parenting time is yours, not your wife's.  And if you aren't there and the mother is available at that time, there is no reason at all for her to not have the children.

[2dvldog]

no they shouldnt let her have them because shes too lazy to work. I and my wife have to work to take care of our 2 children and pay for my support.  I don't get the option to stay home...why should she get the money and have more time with my children? That is complete bias.

[2dvldog]

oh and my children have neevr set foot in a daycare so its not a matter of daycare or her

[mistoffolees]

>no they shouldnt let her have them because shes too lazy to
>work. I and my wife have to work to take care of our 2
>children and pay for my support.  I don't get the option to
>stay home...why should she get the money and have more time
>with my children? That is complete bias.

I don't 100% agree with Jade (particularly the point where a stay-at-home mom should automatically be favored for custody), but she makes some good points. If you're here seriously looking for advice, you should listen to what people say without flying off the handle.

Calm down, read what Jade said, read what I said, and think about it. Then consult with your attorney.

But don't get upset because the world doesn't work the way YOU want it to.

[2dvldog]

Every reply i have gotten form jade is a mother biased reply. You have to remember the courts are still gender biased and ihave been fighting it for 6 years...I thought getting advice from a site like this would be differant...

[2dvldog]

he has had 3 more children...why shouldn't the expenses come out of his paycheck? why do his 3 children effect me? Whether its cheaper for her for daycare because of her 3 more children or not i shouldn't have to pay for them. He should be paying for HIS children and her inability to work because of them.

[krazyfamily_6]

You are not paying support for her other children, just yours.  

[Jade]

>no they shouldnt let her have them because shes too lazy to
>work. I and my wife have to work to take care of our 2
>children and pay for my support.  I don't get the option to
>stay home...why should she get the money and have more time
>with my children? That is complete bias.


Because her husband can afford for her to.  Her husband is also smart enough to realize that it wouldn't pay for her to work.  5 kids in daycare will cost more than what she would make.  

Lazy?  What an ignorant statement.  And just goes to show how little value you place on a parent staying home and raising children.  

[Jade]

>Every reply i have gotten form jade is a mother biased reply.
>You have to remember the courts are still gender biased and
>ihave been fighting it for 6 years...I thought getting advice
>from a site like this would be differant...


No, it is a stay at home parent bias.  I would say the same if the parent who stayed home is the father.  

You are reading a gender bias where there is none.  

[Jade]

>oh and my children have neevr set foot in a daycare so its
>not a matter of daycare or her


If it is because the stepmom is the one taking care of them while you are at work, the courts should side with the mother.  Sorry, but the stepmom is not the mother.  

And before you go reading a gender bias, if the situation was reversed and the father was a sahp and it was the stepdad who was taking care of the children while the mother was at work, the courts should side with the father.

[Davy]

Hey Mist (and you too Jaded) ... knock off your crap !!

Most of the world certainly does not agree with the way YOU WANT it to.

As a matter of fact (over a very long period of years) far more would agree with the OP.  

The CORRECT action in this matter would be for the mother to be reduced to EOW visitation and for her to start supporting all facets of her children's lifes and be proud of her children in all ways instead of running to attorneys and courts to harm and hamper their endeavors.

[Jade]

>he has had 3 more children...why shouldn't the expenses come
>out of his paycheck? why do his 3 children effect me? Whether
>its cheaper for her for daycare because of her 3 more children
>or not i shouldn't have to pay for them. He should be paying
>for HIS children and her inability to work because of them.
>
>


Clearly, you are not getting the point.  

The point is that YOUR portion of the daycare costs for YOUR children would be MORE than what you pay in child support.  

Your ex's husband is picking up the mother's portion of the child support for YOUR children because she is working at raising 5 children.  

He is smart enough to recognize that it would actually cost him MORE money if his wife had to work and they had to put ALL of the children in daycare.  

Your child support isn't paying for HIS children.  But YOURS.  

[Jade]

>Hey Mist (and you too Jaded) ... knock off your crap !!

Handslapping (and namecalling) rarely works.  But if you want to act like you are in grade school, feel free.

>
>Most of the world certainly does not agree with the way YOU
>WANT it to.
>

Got any stats to back that up?



>As a matter of fact (over a very long period of years) far
>more would agree with the OP.  

Again, got any stats to back that up?  And I am not talking about research.  I am talking about a poll of the world.

>
>The CORRECT action in this matter would be for the mother to
>be reduced to EOW visitation and for her to start supporting
>all facets of her children's lifes and be proud of her
>children in all ways instead of running to attorneys and
>courts to harm and hamper their endeavors.

The correct action would be for the courts to take the best interests of the children into consideration.  And being home with a sahp (regardless of gender) is better than being home with a stepparent (regardless of gender) while the parent is working.  

[Davy]

Again and again and again ....

You are simply text book and not in reality making up assumptions that simply don't relate to 2dvldog.  

He said the mother started out with primary custody (aka mommy bias) and the father has fought thru the bias much to the gain of the children.

The father said his children had never seen the inside of a day care center and you simply don't know the salary level the lazy mom might demand if she would work to support her five children.

You also assume the father's CS $$$  is strictly being used to support his children.  Very doubtful since there is no acountibility in the system.

Here is reality.  The money received from the father's labor is for the gain of his children...not for the gain of an exwife or another man's children including the exwife's new husband, attorneys and judges.
 
The children are currently thriving in the custodial arrangement, school, socially and in outside activities.  The children need to be protected from the mother.

You should not assume these children's, the other children, or all the adults are best served by cowing down to the mother's misguided ego.  

[2dvldog]

Thank you

[2dvldog]

No actually 80% of the time its me taking care of them as a result of creative work scheduling on my part. And I have 2  other children that they need to be with as well.

[mistoffolees]

>Every reply i have gotten form jade is a mother biased reply.
>You have to remember the courts are still gender biased and
>ihave been fighting it for 6 years...I thought getting advice
>from a site like this would be differant...

There are some cases where the courts are biased on the basis of gender, but nowhere near as much as some people claim. But Jade's responses didn't indicate any gender bias.

Furthermore, you can either live in a fantasy world where things work the way you wish they did or you can live in the real world and deal with things as they are. I'd suggest the latter. If there's gender bias in your court (for which you haven't provided any evidence, btw), then you have to deal with it.

[mistoffolees]

>Hey Mist (and you too Jaded) ... knock off your crap !!

Sorry, but I'm not the one providing anger-filled irrational comments here.

>
>Most of the world certainly does not agree with the way YOU
>WANT it to.
>
>As a matter of fact (over a very long period of years) far
>more would agree with the OP.  

ROTFLMAO.

Why don't you point out the factual errors in my post?

[mistoffolees]

>oh and my children have neevr set foot in a daycare so its
>not a matter of daycare or her

So what do you suggest? It's OK for one of your family members to stay at home to watch the kids but it's not OK for your ex to stay home and watch the kids? Try presenting that argument to the courts.

The facts are simple. Her husband makes enough money that it doesn't make sense financially for her to work and put the kids in day care. I've been in the same situation. You may not like it, but that's the way things work some times.

[mistoffolees]

>Again and again and again ....
>
>You are simply text book and not in reality making up
>assumptions that simply don't relate to 2dvldog.  

Fair enough - just as soon as you stop making assumptions, too.

>
>He said the mother started out with primary custody (aka mommy
>bias) and the father has fought thru the bias much to the gain
>of the children.

The father CLAIMS bias. Unfortunately, there's no evidence of that. The easiest thing in the world is to claim bias.

>
>The father said his children had never seen the inside of a
>day care center and you simply don't know the salary level the
>lazy mom might demand if she would work to support her five
>children.

Talk about ad hominem attacks. A mother who can afford to stay home with her kdis and chooses to do so is lazy?  Now who's the one who's biased?

When I was married, it was very clear that it didn't pay for my wife to work - even though she'd be making $40-50 K per year. First, you have day care expenses. Then an extra car. Then lunches out. Then a cleaning lady. Then more clothing. And so on. You can quibble about some of those, but we made a sound, financial decision that her working would not benefit us financially, but would be worse off for our daughter because she'd be in day care. So are we lazy?

Furthermore, I don't need to know the salary level she MIGHT command. Unless she's in a very specialized line of work, they're going to impute minimum wage. So far, there's been no evidence that she's a rocket scientist or plastic surgeon.


>
>You also assume the father's CS $$$  is strictly being used to
>support his children.  Very doubtful since there is no
>acountibility in the system.

That's the way child support works. But, frankly, I've seen very few cases where the money provided for support was greater than what it costs to raise a child. Jade and I both pointed out the chance that if the mother goes back to work, his support could go UP. All we're suggesting is that it's not necessarily beneficial to ANYONE for her to be working.

What does that have to do with accountability?

>
>Here is reality.  The money received from the father's labor
>is for the gain of his children...not for the gain of an
>exwife or another man's children including the exwife's new
>husband, attorneys and judges.

Do you feel better now that you have that out of your system?

Do you have evidence that the money he's paying for support is not being used for the kids? If not, then stop with the inflammatory stuff.

>
>The children are currently thriving in the custodial
>arrangement, school, socially and in outside activities.  The
>children need to be protected from the mother.

You really need to take a step back. The children are thriving with shared physical custody. No allegations of abuse of any kind. Now, the mother wants to watch them during the day to accomodate the father's work schedule and that's some evil scheme?

>
>You should not assume these children's, the other children, or
>all the adults are best served by cowing down to the mother's
>misguided ego.  

Nor by the father's misguided ego. Nor by yours.

[krazyfamily_6]

So are you saying that people who choose to stay home and raise their children are automatically lazy and don't want to work?

Child support money is to support the child's basic  needs.  Part of those basic needs are shelter, food, electricity..........

[2dvldog]

No I wasn't making a general statement. I was making a very specific statement about a very specific person whom  I Know is lazy(I was married  to her after-all). All I'm saying is that the children are thriving in our current situation and there would be no reason to change the arrangement based on that alone. To what end? Whos needs are really being met by doing so?

[wysiwyg]

ok here is my 2 cents.

1.  if you both have joint physical custody, then it would seem to me that you both can command what goes on with the kids while in your care.  ie, if your wife wants to watch the kids when you are at work then so be it, but also remember that the same goes for the ex.  IF you would choose, and as a practical suggestion, to allow the other the right of first refusal (if this is not addressed in your court order already) then you have that right.

2.  the basic thing here is the kids and communicaiton between the parents.

3.  Some (not all) court orders will address the childs rights to have a relationship with other significants in their life, ours does and specifically states that the child has the right "To develop and maintain meaningful relationships with other significant adults (grandparents, stepparents and other relatives) as long as these relationships do not interfere with or replace the child's primary relationship with the parents."  so my take is that if the child is with you and you have joint physical - then the child has the right to have a relationship with his/her stepmother, and seeing as how the child is with you during this shared joint physical custody, ten it is not replacing the mothers time IF your court order does not specifically state the right of first refusal - then you would need to follow your court order.

[sdbleve]

I would like to throw in my 2 cents also...

From what I have read in this thread, the kids are in the care of the stepmother (at times) while the father works. The mother wants the kids while the father is at work.  Does that about some it up?

Something I would like to throw out there.  (This is a personal observation and opinion) A child benefits not just from the physical presence of a parent...but also from the enviroment that that parent provides.  If not, you would have to think that the only time the child benefits from being with a parent is when they are attatched at the hip.  So not true, especially as the children grow up.  

Does the child only benefit when they are sitting there in the same room with Daddy (or Mommy)?  Or do they benefit from knowing that Daddy (or Mommy) has provided this safe, loving enviroment for them to be in? What happens when the kids are in school? They are away from both Mommy and Daddy (hopefully in a safe, learning enviroment).  How is the time spent in school different from time spent in a care program? Both situations have the children outside of the home, in the care of others for a time.  

Jade I read something in another post that kind of raised my hackles a bit.  It is the survey of if presumed 50/50 custody should be the norm.  You wrote: "my answer would be no. It doesn't take the individual child into consideration. If it is that the other parent can call the child when with the other parent (if that makes sense), then my answer would be yes. Along with both parents having access to school records, health records, etc...

Should it not be the other way around...that presumed 50/50 should be the norm, with the individual child/circumstances taken into consideration for possible needed adjustments?  Is it your contention that "phoning the child when with the other parent" is in any way equivilant to spend time with the parent?  What a crock!  Jade, I dont know you from Adam, but that comment is spoken like a true controlling custodial parent!  They cant have true shared custody, but they can call when ever they want. If I would have to guess, the bias I am seeing in your post is not a "Mommy" or "Daddy" based bias, but rather a Custodial Parent based bias. And that is just wrong.

Ok, I will get off my soap box now.

[Jade]

>
>Jade I read something in another post that kind of raised my
>hackles a bit.  It is the survey of if presumed 50/50 custody
>should be the norm.  You wrote: "my answer would be no. It
>doesn't take the individual child into consideration. If it is
>that the other parent can call the child when with the other
>parent (if that makes sense), then my answer would be yes.
>Along with both parents having access to school records,
>health records, etc...
>
>Should it not be the other way around...that presumed 50/50
>should be the norm, with the individual child/circumstances
>taken into consideration for possible needed adjustments?  Is
>it your contention that "phoning the child when with the other
>parent" is in any way equivilant to spend time with the
>parent?  What a crock!  Jade, I dont know you from Adam, but
>that comment is spoken like a true controlling custodial
>parent!  They cant have true shared custody, but they can call
>when ever they want. If I would have to guess, the bias I am
>seeing in your post is not a "Mommy" or "Daddy" based bias,
>but rather a Custodial Parent based bias. And that is just
>wrong.
>
>Ok, I will get off my soap box now.

It's not a custodial parent bias.  It is a primary caregiver bias.  If my ex had been the sahp, he would have custody right now.  

And, no, shared physical custody should not be the presumption.  Because it does not take the individual child into consideration.  

An example of this is small children.  They need more stability than 50/50 provides.  And then there are children, regardless of age, who just do not do well with going back and forth constantly.  And while this may not seem a big deal to you, what if the parents can't agree to one home being the primary home?  That child is stuck in a bad situation under the law.

As it stands now, the only exception in the states that are foolish enough to have this presumption, the only way that the child wouldn't be forced into shared physical custody is if there is domestic violence involved or the parents agree to do what is best for the child (which I would hope they would do anyway).  The law simply is not in the child's best interests.  

Does this mean that I think that shared physical custody won't work?  That depends on the individual child and how close the parents live together.  

Shared physical custody is not something that I would have ever agreed to when I got a divorce simply because my children are young and aren't ready for it.  And if my children had the misfortune of being in a state where the presumption is 50/50 physical, they would not be as happy and well-adjusted as they are.  Does it mean that I have ruled it out in the future?  No, but right now, it's not happening.  

[mistoffolees]

>As it stands now, the only exception in the states that are
>foolish enough to have this presumption, the only way that the
>child wouldn't be forced into shared physical custody is if
>there is domestic violence involved or the parents agree to do
>what is best for the child (which I would hope they would do
>anyway).  The law simply is not in the child's best interests.
>


Jade, that is not correct. If you're going to argue your point, you should start with accurate information.

In my state, shared physical custody is the presumption, but either parent can present any evidence that they wish as to why they think that it should not be applied. They can include counselor's reports, request a custody evaluation, or present any other evidence that they wish if they think that their home is a better place for the kids.

I happen to believe that shared physical custody is best for the kids unless there's some reason why the opposite is true. Research shows that greater levels of involvement by both parents results in better outcomes (although I suspect that for infants, it might be better). What is the evidence supporting your contention that it it not appropriate for younger children?

At the time of our divorce, my ex was the primary caregiver - as a stay-at-home-mom. But there's no question in my mind that I'm a better parent. By your standards, my daughter should be with her, but in reality, my daughter does better with me - happier, we spend far more time together than she does with her mother, we do more activities, and so on. A presumption of equal time where either parent is free to present their case seems much fairer than presuming that one parent is a 'better' parent than the other. Just how is it fair to make an arbitrary assumption favoring either parent?

[jane l]

Hey, I'm on here because my son has a soon to be ex.  

I briefed over the responses and can't figure out how this became about Jade. (aka your ex?)

As for the ex - ignore her as much as possible, she's envious, looking for attention and control, and can't seem to get it without making everyone dance around her.  She could stand to not be at home so she can focus on more than herself.  How's that for bias?

I grew up in a divorced with step-parents family and guess who replaced my mother?  First my older sister and then I started parenting myself.

There's no way to win the "stay at home game".  My husband and I chose to be a single income family and I was home with my three sons the entire time.  They're adults now.  But, guess what, the soon to be ex has decided my son is a mama's boy.  She wanted her family life to match my picture with one huge flaw.  We know how to manage money and stay out of debt on one income. Once her picture was shattered, she started the blame game, didn't want to work, and guess what, found out that when you're divorced you still have to support the kids.   I see nothing wrong with two income families that have a schedule that allows their children to thrive.

I don't truly believe any single parent is doing their children a service by staying home unless they are financially independent of everyone, including the person paying child support.  I think it's great that your second wife is willing to take on the challenge of a blended family and a drama queen who sees her as the enemy.  She deserves to be respected for her obvious healthy emotional courage. Protect her from your ex as much as you can, she's worth it. Your children can only benefit from her example and yours.  

You didn't mention whether the stay at home ex can support herself and the children without outside assistance other than your child support.  If she can't, she is setting the kids up for an attitude of entitlement.

[2dvldog]

no jade is not the ex. And no she is not financialy secure enough by herself to support them. She has  her parents paying for her attorney. In my opinion her fighting fof the kids stopped being about the kids a long time ago.

[2dvldog]

Did I mention my children are thriving? It's obvious to me that your children are with you and your ego is too big  to think they would do as well otherwise. I  have 4 children and majored in elementary Ed so I think I have a little understanding on how small children work and let me tell you that they deal way better with change and things other than the norm than older children. BTW I live 10 minutes from their mother so that isn't a consideration that will help your biased stance here.

[jane l]

Hang in there.  Kids do grow up and the instictively know who is child- centered and who is self-centered.  There will be a day when they will express their appreciation, probably when they become parents themselves.  It sounds like ex has an entitlement issue already going with her parents that she would like to pass on as a legacy.  Dad's inequality makes me sad, especially when they are so willing to carry the parenting burden as well as the $$$.  Society over-estimates $$$ and neglects these little people who need caring adults in their lives.  I'm proud of you for contuing to try.  It gives me courage to continue to  support my son in his efforts to be a dad.  Thanks for sharing.