Illinois dad and Moving out

[chidad]

My wife (mostly her) have decided that we need a break.  We have tried couples counseling and the last one suggested the same.  We have 2 boys, 2 and 5.  Before I move out, I wanted to make sure I understood the ramifications my action would cause.  We have decided that I would move near by, so I can be with the boys daily.  We are also working on a schedule for them to stay with me, but haven't gotten that far.  Any assistance or guidance would be appreciated.

[ocean]

Do NOT move out until you have an agreement that you want. Everything in writing signed by a judge or it is worth nothing. If she wants to move, fine, then the kids stay with you. Once you move out, it will be considered abandonment in the eyes of the law. Be VERY careful....this counselor seems to be on mom's side if she told you to leave the house..

[Davy]

Do not MOVE OUT.   Stay with the kids.  The entire system is against your children and you.  It is best for your children to have access to both parents in the future.  It is usually best for the father to be the major influence,  Many an Illinois mother have been assisted by the system to allow your children and the mother to be a burden on society.

It is best the mother MOVE OUT then for you to adjust and cope to overcome.

[shaden3]

My wife (mostly her) have decided that we need a break.  We have tried couples counseling and the last one suggested the same.  We have 2 boys, 2 and 5.  Before I move out, I wanted to make sure I understood the ramifications my action would cause.  We have decided that I would move near by, so I can be with the boys daily.  We are also working on a schedule for them to stay with me, but haven't gotten that far.  Any assistance or guidance would be appreciated.

It's a good thing you've reached out, but how you should handle this is really something you have to look in your own heart and mind to figure out. If you are wondering what the legal ramifications would be, it's best to find an attorney to guide you. If you are wondering what the relationship ramifications would be, then please heed the following: the way you set the tone for the future communications depends much on how this is handled now. To become immediately adversarial and expect that the court system is only there to support a mother is an extremely difficult path. It will likely cause ongoing mistrust, anger and conflict. For you to be openminded and considerate of the other party will only mean that she will be that for you, too. It's sad that you're facing the end of a marriage, but it seems that you've put your heads together to make sure you have daily contact with your sons. This is a positive thing. Please be cautious when you begin to stand your ground, hold firm to a position, that comes from other people's bad experiences. You have a chance here to create two loving homes, rather than one home that wasn't working for everyone. So, to that end, do consult with an attorney you believe does good work, and do remember that placing a chip on your shoulder will only be the beginning of bad things to come.

[Kitty C.]

'For you to be openminded and considerate of the other party will only mean that she will be that for you, too.'

Shaden, I have to vehemently disagree with you.  While refusing to leave may create an adversarial atmosphere, 'assuming' that the other party will be as accomodating is just being completely ignorant.  More than likely, to do so would open one up to being taken completely advantage of.  Why is it that once one parent (more often than not the mother) wants to split, it is assumed that the other parent MUST move out?  Personally (and I've done this myself), the person who wants to end the relationship should be the one to leave.

But it doesn't change the fact that if a parent leaves the marital home, the court can and often does view it as abandonment.  To think otherwise is to walk blindly and assume one will be treated fairly by all, which I have NEVER heard of in family court, and I've been on this website almost since inception.

If neither parent wants to move, then they will have to sit down and figure out how to split their time up in the home.  There are many alternatives: living on separate floors, one poster recently mentioned living in an apartment in a detached garage on the property, or obtaining an apartment and parents split their time between the two.  It's a matter of willingness of BOTH parties (one-sided will not work) to cooperate and getting creative with solutions.

[shaden3]

Kitty C: I'm glad you've taken me to task for my post. This gives me a chance to clarify and, of course, get a better understanding. It's important to note that I didn't respond to the original post with a suggestion to move out, but rather to begin the process with an open heart and open mind.

There is much pain in these forums, and many conflicts that seem intractable to the people who reach out. Please know that even the most high conflict situations can be dealt with better. There isn't a single case of conflict that is purely one-sided. We engage on many different levels, both subconsciously and in-your-face engagement. Telling the poster to immediately jump on the offense will only hurt the family.

Giving him hope, however, that all is not lost and that there is a chance he won't suffer the same ill-fate as others isn't arrogant or ignorant. It's only fair that he be told there are things he can do that will make his life better, without a mountain of legal bills and fighting, denied access to the children and certain heartache.

Most importantly, posters must decide for themselves what is best, and not be guided only by those who have had only bad experiences. These bad experiences are used in our lives to learn from, personally, but assuming that others will benefit from our own personal pain puts them on OUR angry roads. The poster needs to do what is best for him and for his family. Of course, legal advocacy was the only suggestion regarding making a decision to move out.

I likely could have constructed my post so that it was more clear, so thank you for pointing that out. It's never too late to change the way we talk to one another, never too late to help our children learn from communicating with respect (even if it's only one parent doing the hard work).

[Kitty C.]

Shaden, I'm not saying the OP has to 'jump on the offense'.  All I'm saying is that the OP should NOT automatically move out just because his spouse wants him to because she filed against him and assume that because he's being openminded and considerate, that will be reciprocated to him.  An adversarial situation only becomes that way through 'attitude', not 'deed'.  If they are able to talk about the situation and come up with an alternative (like the ones I mentioned in my earlier post) that is able to allow both parents equal time with the kids without either appearing to abandon them.

Just MHO, but I still say that the person who wants to end the relationship should be the one to leave (if someone absolutely HAS to leave), if they want it so bad.  If they don't, then they have an obligation to everyone else in the home to try to work it out.  And in a 'perfect' world, that would be a requirement when one initially files............yeah, and I'm winning the lottery and retiring to the Carribean, too! 

[gemini3]

My wife (mostly her) have decided that we need a break.  We have tried couples counseling and the last one suggested the same.  We have 2 boys, 2 and 5.  Before I move out, I wanted to make sure I understood the ramifications my action would cause.  We have decided that I would move near by, so I can be with the boys daily.  We are also working on a schedule for them to stay with me, but haven't gotten that far.  Any assistance or guidance would be appreciated.

I agree with the other posters - DO NOT move out until you have temporary orders signed by a judge.  I recommend that you have it drawn up by an attorney.  Illinois is one of the WORST states for father's rights.  If you leave you could end up seeing your kids four days a month and paying your ex out the wazoo while she lives in your house.

I agree with Kitty - if she's the one that needs a break then she should move out.  Unfortunately, if you tell her that, she'll go talk to a lawyer who will tell her exactly what she needs to do to get you out of the house, and it won't be pretty.

Consider:

• you're making what are probably the biggest financial decisions of your life
  
• you're dealing with the most powerful emotional and psychological issues that you'll probably ever have to face
  
• you're expected to create a binding agreement addressing all issues that will affect you and your children for the rest of your life and
  
• you're working without a net.

Remember - Illinois is one of the WORST states for father's rights.  I would recommend that you be as pro-active as possible.

[Davy]

Shaden, As far back as 1980 a grandfather and noted author concerning children issues published a book entitled "Our Endangered Children".  In that book he sited two states, Illinois and Washington,as particularly mean spirited and unfair towards children and their fathers.  That's not to say other states should get a pass because this is a sick societal problem.  Moreover, those two states were prone to taking in children from other states.  You may want to read untaxed financial rewards into the equation. 

I find your views towards family life, children and their mothers and fathers, as text book and off-centered in the real world.  We ALL wish the dissoloving of a family was as blue sky as you paint but in the real world it's not that easy at all.

My perspective, as a former board member of a so called "Father Rights" organization in TX with ugly experiences in 4 IL courts and 1 TX court is that people use that term for ease of communication in parallell to the divorce/custody industry.  I prefer to call it for what it is ...
a bias and prejudice against the children and their father.  We don't exist to play kissy-face with government workers including attorneys.

There is plenty of very useful infomation in the articles section on this site.  Fathers should learn to interview attorneys, manage the attorney and their case .....

.... and only leave the home kicking and screaming.


American by birth.  Texan by choice.  Illinois by court order.

[Kitty C.]

'.... and only leave the home kicking and screaming. '

Well spoken, Davy, and I agree with you 100%!  That being said, and considering your experiences, I was wondering what your opinion would be on my conclusion that whomever is requesting the separation/divorce should be the one to move out (if the situation necessitated it).  Since I've heard that women have a higher percentage of doing the initial filing, it would only stand to reason that it would be a higher percentage of them moving out, if this were to happen.

When this happened to me (twice!), I never asked the father to move out.  I was the one who wanted out of the relationship, so I left.  The first time, I left because the father was an alcoholic and abusive to me and negligent (driving drunk) with our son.  The second time, it was with DH (DS's stepdad) 5 years ago when we were having difficulties, which we resolved.......we were only out about 3 weeks.  I figured in both instances that since I was the one who wanted out, I should be the one to leave.  IMHO, any woman who wants a divorce and demands that the father leave is just plain greedy and I would seriously doubt any sincerity on their part regarding the situation.

But that's just me........