George, what the hell were you thinking?

[StPaulieGirl]

Ohhhh I'm pissed off.  I'm actually faced with the fact that I don't want to vote to reelect George W. Bush after this bs amnesty plan.  George, does Vincente Fox have something on you?  Why are you selling this country down the river????  Jesus Christ, Kalifornistan is bad enough already.  Jobs that Americans won't do???  Your examples of hotel maids, meat cutters and landscapers is bs!  I know unemployed Americans who would jump on those jobs.  We'll jump on those jobs thanks to all the jobs that were sent overseas in the last few years.  The jobs that paid a living wage.  George may you have to sit on the phone for 4 hours trying to find someone who speaks English and can help you troubleshoot your pc.  

http://www.fairus.org/ImmigrationIssueCenters/ImmigrationIssueCenters.cfm?ID=2250&c=15

What's Wrong With the Proposals for a New Guestworker Program?
 
 
 Proposals for a massive new "guestworker" program would:

threaten homeland security
grant amnesty for law-breakers, a step overwhelmingly opposed by the American public
establish a back door immigration program
threaten the jobs and wages of American workers.
The politicians pushing a guestworker amnesty know that Americans staunchly oppose amnesty, and so they shy away from calling it what it really is, instead cloaking it in terms like "earned legalization" or "normalization of status."  They are deliberately misleading the American public.

THEY SAY that the overwhelming majority of people entering the country illegally pose no threat to our country and that if we allow them enter in a lawful manner, we will enhance our homeland security.

THE TRUTH is that there are an estimated 8-11 million illegal aliens in the United States, and it only took 19 to perpetrate the attacks of September 11.  Our immigration system has become overburdened and unmanageable due to mass illegal immigration.  As a result, there is little reason to feel confident that, absent a massive infusion of new resources, which is highly unlikely given current fiscal realities, anything approaching thorough background checks can be conducted on applicants for a guestworker program.  Even without the added burden of an amnesty, people like Sheikh Omar Abdul Rahman, the blind Egyptian cleric who masterminded the first World Trade Center bombing, and Mohammed Atta, the leader of the September 11 attacks, managed to slip through the screening process.  There is every reason to believe that adding new responsibilities to an overtaxed system will make us less safe.

No one has yet explained how the millions of applicants would be given security checks or whether that's even remotely feasible, given an already overburdened immigration enforcement system. Immigration officials would have to deal with hundreds of thousands of more applicants a year, to say nothing of how we would verify eligibility for any of the eight million potential applicants already here illegally, particularly with many of them armed with false identity documents.  When the immigration system can't adequately perform its most essential mission, adding in the responsibility for security checks, tracking, and removal when necessary for millions of participants in a guestworker program will guarantee disaster.

THEY SAY that the legislation is not an amnesty, but that guestworkers who participate in the program will be eligible for permanent resident status.

THE TRUTH is that the proposal would be an amnesty with an "apprenticeship" provision.  Illegal aliens who are already in the U.S. would  be eligible to apply.  Thus, they would be excused for having violated our immigration laws in the first place, and then be rewarded again with permanent residency--thus making the law, in effect, a double amnesty.  Calling it something else does not change the reality that this proposal is a massive amnesty program.

THEY SAY the program will help regain control of the borders and stop illegal immigration.

THE TRUTH is that the proposal does nothing to discourage future illegal immigration or enforcement of our immigration laws, ensuring that any guestworker or illegal alien who wants to remain in the U.S. can and will.  In fact, about one-third of illegal aliens in the country right now arrived on legal visas and simply never went home.  In addition, it does nothing to strengthen border security to ensure that only guestworkers, and not terrorists, are being admitted.

THEY SAY that spouses and children of illegal aliens may also be eligible to participate in the visa program.

THE TRUTH is that this would be an amnesty not only for those who qualify for this "guestworker" program, but a simultaneous amnesty for their dependents, whether or not they are workers.  Aside from expanding the amnesty to include non-workers, it also grants a benefit to the dependents of illegal aliens that is not afforded to the families of other guestworkers who never violated the law.  Moreover, it undermines the stated – if flawed – purpose of a guestworker program:  that foreign workers come temporarily and then return home.  Employers would be able to utilize a virtually limitless supply of guestworkers at low wages, while the expense for services like education and health care for dependent family members would have to be picked up by taxpayers.

THEY SAY that an electronic job registry operated through the Department of Labor will allow employers to post jobs and American workers would have the first chance to apply.  Moreover, the jobs would have to be offered again at the end of the three-year period, and that workers' visas would be renewed only if no Americans are willing to take them.

THE TRUTH is that in the estimation of the General Accounting Office and former Labor Secretary Robert Reich, the provisions in existing guestworker programs that are intended to ensure that American workers get first crack at jobs have been a complete failure.  Even if the political will existed to prevent employers from bypassing American workers in favor of foreign guestworkers – which there doesn't – the Labor Department does not have the resources to monitor the hiring process.  A federal government that managed to fine a grand total of 13 employers nationwide in 2002 for violating employer sanctions laws cannot be counted on to enforce the provisions of a guestworker program either.

THEY SAY that BSIIA would be a market-driven program that will negate the reasons why employers hire illegal aliens.

THE TRUTH is that under BSIIA, there would not even be a prevailing wage requirement, meaning that employers will be able to offer wages far below what most Americans would be willing to accept, thereby creating an artificial need for guestworkers.  In effect, the law would grant legal sanction to employers who want to hire workers at low wages and limited leverage.  One of the primary purposes of our immigration laws is to prevent employers from undermining wages and working conditions of American workers.

THEY SAY that the program would prevent abuse of foreign workers by affording them mobility and the ability to file grievances against abusive employers.

THE TRUTH is that the mobility of guestworkers would still be very limited and their ability to change jobs would depend on finding another employer who was willing to go through the procedure of posting a job and wading through the bureaucratic red tape.  The primary interest of the workers would be to hold a job for six years in order to qualify for permanent residency.  Moreover, at the end of the "apprenticeship" period, when the guestworker would be granted permanent residency and would gain bargaining power, there is no reason to expect that the employer would not seek another guestworker who is willing to work at below-market wages.

THEY SAY that the program would prevent deaths along the border.

THE TRUTH is that U.S. immigration laws are not responsible for the deaths along the border – it is the violation of our immigration laws that is  responsible.  If there is any culpability on the part of the American government, it is in its failure to deter illegal immigration by aggressively enforcing laws that prohibit illegal aliens from working here or accessing public benefits.  Sending a clear signal that illegal entry to the U.S. will not be rewarded would have the desired effect of dissuading people from placing their lives and safety into the hands of unscrupulous smugglers.  Besides, when the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (BICE) adopted a measure that demonstrably cut down the likelihood of border deaths – by repatriating illegal alien crossers who were apprehended in Arizona to border towns in Texas – the open borders lobby protested, charging that the program was unfair to illegal aliens.

THEY SAY the program will provide workers when and while they're needed.

THE TRUTH is that when the economy takes a downturn, there will be millions of guestworkers in the U.S. without a job, without a home, without health care, and with no intention of returning to their home countries.  The guestworkers' unemployment problems become the public's burden.


1/04
____________________________________________________________

Okay, there is a grassroots effort that started a couple of weeks ago regarding any amnesty plan.  The deal is to stay home on January 12th.  Don't go to work, school, or buy anything.  If enough people do it across the country, maybe we change some minds.  I seriously doubt it, though.

Admin:  If my post is out of line for this forum, I'll understand if you remove it.  I'm just sooo pissed off, and FR is for some reason, cracking down on those of us who think this is an absolute national nightmare.  don't ask us why.

[MKx2]

SPG - I understand where you're coming from on this issue.  However, because money makes the world go 'round, whether we like it or not, allowing the illegal aliens some type of amnesty, as well as the farming out of work to other countries, is probably essential to the future economic development of the world.

I'm not saying that I agree with all aspects of what is being proposed, if any ... nor am I saying that it is "right."   Consider this aspect of a more global nature ...

We stop farming out the manufacturing and assembly, we boot out all the illegal aliens, and essentially take the "isolationist" posture in these areas.  We keep the so-called wealth (which is held by roughly 4% of our population) on U.S. soil.  I think (and someone correct me if I'm wrong with this) that over 2/3 of the world lives in poverty, by our standards, and huge percentage of that is well below what we pampered North Americans consider poverty.  At some point our production will glut our market.  Well then, when that happens we export, but to who?  There isn't enough world wealth to support an export market if we choose this option.  This is a huge economic global infra-structure that is vital to world growth.

So ... ya say who cares about the rest of the world?  Well, I would guess that all of us should.  Without their economic power we eventually go down with the rest of the dominos.

Like it or not, capitalism is what keeps everything turning, and one very small cog in this wheel is those illegal aliens who send their money home to fuel the economy of Mexico.  Directly or indirectly, a portion of that money finds its way back here.

We may not like the situation, but if we want to maintain any standard of living we're going to have to accept it.

There are a gazillion other issues related to this whole thing, but I think you might get the idea of what I'm trying to say.  I don't necessarily like it, but as Indy said recently I am but a "blip" in the overall picture.

Admin ... I too will not be upset if you choose to remove my post either as it is WAAAAAY OT for SPARC.

[StPaulieGirl]

If enough blips get together it makes for a rather large blip.

The problem I have is that these people come here and knowingly break the laws of this country.  If you are here illegally, explain how you are paying taxes?  Sales tax?  Whoopeee!  That goes a long way towards the overhead.  Schools, emergency rooms, Food Stamps.  It has to stop, because it's burying our state governments.

I truly feel bad for people who live in countries run by corrupt governments, whose only choice seemingly is to run North.  We can't absorb anymore people.  They need to take back their own countries and create opportunities for themselves and their families.  I care about other people around the world.  I fully support our efforts to bring stability to the Middle East, and to get rid of dictators who threaten our security and murder their own citizens.  

This is going to drive down wages for existing jobs.  The jobs that haven't been shipped overseas, that is.  The standard of living is going to come down for all of us.  Those of us who are lower middle class, will slip down further.  I don't think there's anything left to export.  You know, there are a lot of people who just aren't white collar material, and have depended on service positions, and the trades to earn a living to feed themselves and their families.  Those 10 dollar an hour jobs are going to be 6.75.  The employer will guarantee that this "guest worker" has a job.  The "guest worker" will of course bring over his family.  Let's see, if you're in Kalifornia, you couldn't even rent a motel room weekly on 6.75 x 40 hours.  So does the Mrs. clean houses under the table to make ends meet?  Do they team up with relatives and squeeze 12 people into a 1 bedroom apt?  It's the same old thing, except this is going to benefit businesses, not Americans, by lowering wages.  

Here is a thought which kind of makes this topic actually relevent to SPARC.  Not everyone here is a white collar professional.  What happens when your job "disappears", so your employer can hire a "guest worker" who will do it for less?  What are you going to tell the family court judge regarding child support payments?  I read posts by "overeducated" individuals who can't even get a McJob because they're over qualified.  The presumption is that when a real job opens up, the person will quit.  Well duh!  But still, we're looking at a possible disaster for this country and her citizens.

There is another thing to consider.  There is an organization called MeCHA that claims that the treaties which gave America the Southwestern United States, is invalid.  Lt Gov Cruz (gee I can't find my birth certificate to prove I was born in the USA)Bustamante was a member during college, and probably is still an unofficial member.  They want the Southwestern portion of the USA(AKA Atzlan) to be given back to Mexico.  Yet another thing to consider:  Middle Easterners and Hispanics look remarkably similar.   My son in law's family is from India.  He's pretty tall and built like a line backer.  People think he's Hispanic, and have struck up a conversation with him in Spanish....which he can't speak; he's also been mistaken for being Italian, and Yugoslavian!  See the problem with security?

Oh well these are just my opinions, not SPARC's.

[Brent]

>Here is a thought which kind of makes this topic actually
>relevent to SPARC.  Not everyone here is a white collar
>professional.  What happens when your job "disappears", so
>your employer can hire a "guest worker" who will do it for
>less?  

There is no doubt that off-shore hiring (exporting) of US jobs has helped destroy the economy, no matter what rosy predictions come out of the White House or the Fed. If unemployment is officially at 8%, you can bet the real number is close to double that.

See, they only count people receiving unemployment benefits as "unemployed". No benefits? Then you aren't counted as "unemployed" and don't appear in the statistics. Cute, huh?

So if you're dead broke, have no job, and aren't able to collect  unemployment benefits you aren't "unemployed". Yeah, you have no job and no money, but the government say you aren't  "unemployed". Isn't that clever? That's why the REAL number is quite a bit more than the one they hand out for public consumption. Always double the number you hear, and then you'll have an idea of how bad it really is.

Also, H1-B visas have clearly contributed to the destruction of our economy.

When a company like GM brags about how they're outsourced 75% of their IT staff to India, it makes me wonder if they realize they're slitting their own throat- who, I ask, is going to be left here that will able to afford to buy their cars? Not someone who's job is now done by someone on India, that's for damn sure.

American companies are piggies at the trough, and the execs who make these decisions don't care, becuase they already have their giant salries and pensions and retirement plans all socked away.

The missle class is shrinking to almost nothing, and pretty soon there will be two classes left in this fine country of ours (cogh, cough)- the very rich and the very poor. Guess which group will be bigger?

The politicians don't care either- like the fat cat executives, they already have their huge salries and pensions and retirement plans taken care of. Meanwhile, most of this country doesn't even have health care.

America: "The Land Of The Fee And The Home Of The Knave". :(

[Brent]

This is the "General" board, so there's almost nothing considered "off topic". This is the best place to post anything you find interesting, newsy, or fun.

[StPaulieGirl]

Oh yes!  After you exhaust your benefits, "you no longer exist".  Stories about unemployment rates going down just crack me up. Not cute.  There is a poster who calls himself "Willie Green" on FR, who posts the latest factory closings.  For a while last fall, it was EVERY DAY.  These people are going to work, where?  Brush clearing, fast food?

Housing prices are insane in So Cal.  Who can afford to buy, nevermind rent these places?  What comes up, eventually comes down.  When George AFB was closed in 1989, we ended up "upside down" on our mortgage, as did all of our neighbors.  The economic base imploded.  The real estate market is going to go to hell in this state pretty soon.  I just hope my aunt and I can figure out how to sell the mausoleum "probate-as is" before the market crashes.  I also hope she quits listening to her lawyer and accountant, otherwise I'm going to have a problem :/

I don't mean to be so pessimistic, but like I said, I read first hand accounts of folks who are well educated who can't find a job these days.  The middle class is up to their collective eyeballs in debt just trying to maintain the lifestyle they used to be able to afford.  I'm not talking about conspicious consumption, either.  How can you trust your job security to stick your neck out on a major purchase such as a house or a brand new car? (eat me GM, Ford, etc!)

Carly Fiorina is a smug, uncaring, poor excuse for an American.  Imo...

I have a few remedies to this situation that will never be associated by my IP address.

Let us never forget the spirit of '76!

[Indigo Mom]

-----Let us never forget the spirit of '76!-----

Refresh my memory, as I was more concerned with getting potty trained back in '76...lol...lmao...ooohhh hoooo....

ok, feeling a bit cocky today, feel free to whoop my behind for that one!

[Peanutsdad]

76?

Oh yes, strawberry papers and columbian gold. Hellova year;)

[Brent]

>76?
>
>Oh yes, strawberry papers and columbian gold. Hellova year;)

I remember 1976. Well, part of it, anyway. ;)

Do I wanna go back? Nope. The 70's sucked, in my humble opinion. The clothes, music, and cars were all atrocious, as were the politicians. Ugh.

[Peanutsdad]

Ummm Brent, most of us that were of an age to remember the 70's,, CANT LOL.

Totally different societal mores then,, gettin high was not only accepted, it was expected.