Spanking and visitation

[steprealmom]

Ok I posted this last week in Visitation but didn't get anyone who had experienced this.  I am hoping if I post under General more of you will read this and someone will have had it happen to them.

Anyhow to the ?...Have any of you had BM ask for supervised visitation because your DH spanked your Schild? BM is doing this and FOC is allowing it to go to a hearing. My DH has spanked SD twice in the last 6 years. So it is not our normal form of discipline but BM is screaming abuse because of this. There were no red marks or anything because it was a controlled spanking. SD is 9 y/o. My DH has realized now that he will never do this again and will tell the courts that but not sure what they will do.

Any help would be appreciated for this distraught SM and bio-dad.  We are having attorney help with this but really haven't talked to him in detail yet.  He said wait until you get hearing notice in mail and then to call him.

[Kitty C.]

Question for you........has there been ANY litigation during that 6 years where she could have brought it up before??  Because if there has been, it's a MOOT POINT now.....she had her chance, it obviously was NOT important to her then, so she CANNOT bring it up now, if that's the case.

[steprealmom]

What is MOOT POINT?  I don't believe BM knew about the one other instance SD got spanked because SD didn't go home and tell her.  This spanking issue has never been brought up before.  DH had been in court several times over issues regarding BM taking away visitation and DH getting time back and visitation time being changed.  We tried to prove parental alienation on her part once to get more time but to no avail.  

Not sure why they would set up a hearing if she can't bring it up?  Let me know what you think.  

[catherine]

If I were your DH I would never admit to not doing it again.  Parents are allowed to spank their child, end of story.  I would not try to defend doing that and say it won't happen again.  Do you guys have a lawyer?

[Kitty C.]

What I mean is, when did the BM FIRST find out about SD being spanked?  If you've been to court with her since that time, and she did NOT bring it up then, she cannot now.  She had her chance and she blew it.

Sit down with your atty. and make out a timeline, so you can prove that she has no case.  They would set up a hearing because she filed, plain and simple.  If you can come up with the timeline of when she first found out about it and any subsequent hearings where she would have had the opportunity to bring it up (and didn't), then you can get her petition thrown out right then and there.

[steprealmom]

He does have a lawyer but really haven't spoke to him yet in detail.  Lawyer said wait till hearing is scheduled (notice comes in mail) then he will sit down and discuss what to do.

CPS was notified according to BM's letter she sent to FOC.  DH has NOT heard from them at all.  We believe SD's school counselor encouraged BM to call CPS which is another thing I am worried about.  BM must have this counselor convinced DH is a bad person just like the many other lies she tells people about us.  We know PAS is going on big time.  We were told that today's society doesn't allow spanking (counselor).

We know legally he is allowed to spank SD but with BM putting up such a fuss we don't know if FOC will allow her request for supervised visitation without DH saying he won't do it again.  What do you think they will do?

[steprealmom]

Kitty,
She sent a complaint to FOC within days of the spanking incident.  SD went home all upset and asked her mom to check her butt of course nothing was there but SD told mom the whole thing and BM doesn't believe their is any reason for spanking a child.  So have not been to court since that time.

FOC asked for DH to reply to complaint and he did tell his side of the story, admitting to the spanking because of SD's snotty mouth and not doing as she should have.  FOC emailed him back letting him know that they were scheduling a hearing and that the date would be sent to him in the mail.  The email was all because of another issue.  BM taking time away because she wouldn't allow me to pick SD up for visitation.  Another thing BM is not allowed to do which is also supposed to be discussed in this hearing.  BM also believes only DH is allowed to pickup SD.  FOC already informed us that she can't do that.  But it would be irrelevant if they take away his regular visitation because of the spanking.

[oklahoma]

We went through a very similar experience two years ago.  Although we do not spank or use any physical punishment with our children, my husband did lead his daughters to their room by the backs of their necks when they were in trouble once.  It was shortly before BM showed up to take them for the weekend.  She never brought them back.  More than two years later, we had our first weekend visit with them since the "incident."

We did take the accusations seriously, but not seriously enough.  We figured that if two different police departments, CPS, the DAs office, and at least one counselor all found nothing wrong, that a judge might recognize that my husband was telling the truth.  But BM shopped around until she found a counselor that would testify in court.  BM wanted to have SDs testify in court--which we welcomed!--but did not even bring them to the hearing because she knew what would happen!!  BM asked for supervised visits, 2 hours EOW--pure vindictiveness since we lived 4 hours away--but the judge ordered parenting time stopped altogether.  We were completely dumbfounded!

There were two primary "incidents" considered.  Judge herself said one of them was not abuse, the other one was.  So for one single count of supposed abuse in 10 years, my husband was not allowed to see his children!!  BUT about 5 years earlier, my husband found bruises on YSD (2 years old), which OSD explained were from BM's boyfriend (now husband) hitting her with a belt buckle because she was "bad."  CPS let the SDs stay a few days longer while they "investigated," and sent them right back.

Sorry, this turned into a bit of a vent.  I don't want to scare you, just be prepared for anything!  We KNEW there was no basis for the accusations of abuse, and just wanted to get through the process so SDs could come back to us.  I think if we had taken a bit more time to assess what BM had set up, and to find a more experienced attorney (one who knew the judge already), things would have been very different.

BTW, while I personally do not agree with spanking, it is legal.  And it is allowed in "today's society."  Do not let BM or the courts dictate how you chose to discipline your children.  I can't remember if you mentioned it already, but how does BM discipline?  Do you think she would allow the courts to dictate her decisions in that regard?  Not a chance!!  How would SD behave if she knew Dad would not spank her because he couldn't?  That could be a huge problem....

[steprealmom]

Thank you for responding and sharing your story.  I would like to ask more questions in your case so that it may help us.  I hope you don't mind but if you do I understand.

How did you get the visitation back after two years?

Can I ask what BM accused DH of that wasn't the truth that the judge considered abuse?

What do you think your BM had set-up to led to your 2 years of H*** without SDs?  I would like to head a set-up off if possible.  No one has kept my SD from us so far since this started except for one day because I wasn't considered a viable pickup person.  My DH did get SD the next day when he got home from is trip.  We have a counselor that will testify for DH in court if needed.

Do you really think a different attorney would have made a difference and why?

Not sure how our BM disciplines SD because there is almost no communication between any of us parents because of BM not being cooperative at all.  I do know that BM wouldn't allow anyone to tell her how to raise her child.  You are also right about SD would get worse if she knew Dad couldn't spank.  I think BM already told her that because of SD attitude last visit.  DH grabbed SD to him when SD almost walked into a moving truck in a cider mill parking lot.  SD turned to him and said "don't ever touch me again".  DH told her you don't talk to your father like that.  SD said nothing after that.  At the pickup that morning BM threatened DH that if he ever touched SD again that she would make sure he was touched.

This is such a mess and sooooo stressful for all.
Thanks again and please share more if you can.

[oklahoma]

"Was CPS involved?"

BM first called police in our town--the officer stopped by and after visiting with us determined there was nothing to report.  Then BM filed police report in her town.  BMs attorney sent police report to CPS.  They did not even contact us because they found nothing in the report worth investigating--we called them to see if anything was happening.  BMs attorney then contacted DAs office, who also did not see anything worth investigating.

"How did you get the visitation back after two years?"

To get visitation back, my husband "jumped through the hoops" of what the judge ordered (1. anger management, 2. joint counseling with SDs, 3. supervised visits.)  Originally he was going to tell the counselors what they wanted to hear "I'm so sorry, I will never do it again, etc."--so we could get through the process faster.  But he was afraid he would be held hostage by his daughters--what would they say the next time they got upset?  (And heading into the teen years, they ARE going to be upset with Dad at some point.)  He stuck to his story, eventually convinced counselor he was telling the truth, and she eventually convinced BM to allow supervised visits. (Because of the way the order was written, BM pretty much had complete control.)  BM and her mom (who was the supervisor of visits) got tired of supervised visits after five.  Plus, BM is always more cooperative when HER marriage is in trouble--so we caught her at the right time when we asked to just get going on the original visitation schedule.

"Can I ask what BM accused DH of that wasn't the truth that the judge considered abuse?"

My SDs got in trouble for something we had warned them about over and over and over again.  My husband led them from the living room to their bedroom holding the back of their necks--you know how just about every parent does--no hitting, no spanking, nothing.  SDs embellished a bit and all of the sudden he was picking them up and throwing them into the wall, throwing OSD down onto the coffee table, etc.  My OSD did have bruises on her back when BM picked them up--because she had fallen off a horse twice two days before!  My husband is 6'1" and 300 pounds, so **obviously** he must be abusive....  Our attorney felt that it was the counselor's testimony that did the greatest damage.

"What do you think your BM had set-up to led to your 2 years of H*** without SDs?"  

As far as setting things up, that is what took us so much by surprise when the judge ordered what she did.  BM had made one previous police report (the one which judge did not consider to be abuse.)  That was it--no other accusations, no CPS reports, no "hey we need to talk about this" discussions.  We were completely blindsided both by BM's actions and the court's decisions.

"Do you really think a different attorney would have made a difference and why?"

A different attorney probably would have made the case for us.  Ours was very inexperienced.  About a week before the hearing, our attorney suggested that we may want someone with more experience.  Like I said, we knew BM had nothing and thought our attorney would be able to handle it.  We had used her for over a year, but had never been in court with her.

--My husband was severely disappointed in her cross-examining.
--She should have insisted on having SDs testify.  When BM wanted to have them testify, we thought it would reflect poorly on her for dragging them into court, but at the same time we knew SDs would not lie in front of Dad.
--We should have had the counselor's records before heading into court We got copies later, in which OSD admitted to counselor that she was lying but didn't want BM to get in trouble.
--We should have had copies of CPS reports against BM.  From what I have heard, some by BMs own admission, there have been several calls about her.  My husband has only called once, when YSD was bruised by belt buckle.  My husband is not the type to "dig up dirt," so we have never asked CPS about these reports.  My husband made sure BMs husband would never touch SDs again and so he is not as concerned about the other stuff.

Also, we spoke with an attorney later who knew the judge very well and could have made an immediate good impression--the judge is known for going with her first impression.  It was bad.  But we were flat broke, our attorney worked with us on a payment plan, and we could not afford to start all over with a big retainer on a new attorney. (Our attorney did write off everything we owed her.  And we filed bankruptcy about a year after the hearing, so we didn't have to pay BMs attorney fees either as ordered--ha! ha!--her fees alone were almost an entire year of child support payments.)  We also just wanted to get it over.

We would do better now if SDs and BM tried to pull a similar stunt.  We now have the counselor that BM chose on our side.  We would not make the same mistakes we made the first time.  (And my husband is now a law student--he will make one mean attorney!!  much better than our old attorney or BMs attorney.)

Good luck to you and your family!!  Hang in there....