Hummm....

[cathy]

By respect, I don't mean you have to give credence or agree.  You can respectfully state that you do not believe in something.  You can even respectfully say that you don't understand how anyone can.  Nothing is gain by putting someone down for holding different beliefs than you.

Do you believe in any particular religion?  Do you think others that aren't of that religion are stupid?  Do you think their beliefs are "undefendable"?  That their ideas are crazy and you have no respect for them?

For you, "cellular memory" may be crap and "NOT TRUE".  To some, it may hold truth and may help them.  Where's the harm?

And that is the big difference in the examples you gave - this does not harm anyone.  For some, it seems to help.  So why the extreme intolerance?

None of us have all the answers.  None of us know what is "the truth" and what isn't.  I just think a little tolerance for others would go a long way in helping.

[Brent]

>By respect, I don't mean you have to give credence or agree.
>You can respectfully state that you do not believe in
>something.  You can even respectfully say that you don't
>understand how anyone can.

I could, but that would be condoning belief in something that just isn't true. Doesn't that mean anything? Should we validate every crazy belief in the name of "respect"?

To me, respect is earned. It doesn't come by default. And believing in crazy nonsense is NOT the way to get "respect".


> Nothing is gain by putting someone
>down for holding different beliefs than you.

I think there is. I think that when a crazy belief is ridiculed for what it is, it may teach others to think more carefully (and rationally) about what they believe in.



>
>Do you believe in any particular religion?  Do you think
>others that aren't of that religion are stupid?  Do you think
>their beliefs are "undefendable"?  That their ideas are crazy
>and you have no respect for them?

Well, yes, that about sums it up. I have no respect for or belief in religion. If someone else wants to believe, great, but don't expect me to play along. After all, aren't they supposed to respect MY beliefs? Well, my belief is that it's all a load of nonsense.  If someone wants to take me to task for that, so be it. I still won't believe.




>For you, "cellular memory" may be crap and "NOT TRUE".  To
>some, it may hold truth and may help them.  Where's the harm?

The harm is that IT'S NOT TRUE, goddamnit. Has our culture sunk so low that whether or not something is true doesn't even matter any more??

YOU know it's not true. I know it's not true. Why do we have to pretend to respect something we KNOW isn't true?



>And that is the big difference in the examples you gave - this
>does not harm anyone.  For some, it seems to help.  So why the
>extreme intolerance?

I'm intolerant of lies.  I'm intolerant of mystical bullcrap. I'm intolerant of people believing in things that are bogus, and I'm not going to apologize or br ashamed about it. I'm also not going to tippy-toe around in order to protect anyone's feelings when it comes to believing in things that just aren't true.



>None of us have all the answers.  None of us know what is "the
>truth" and what isn't.  

I love this argument, because it's got more holes in it than an Asian whorehouse. ;)

Look, just because we can't know everything doesn't mean we can't know some things. To defend this sort of belief with the argument that no one knows everything is tantamount to saying that there is nothing we can be sure of, nothing we can really know.

It's just not true.

Your friend is welcome to believe in whatever she wants, no matter how dumb, stupid, or illogical.  I'm welcome to not believe, and to say so out loud. I'm sorry, I just can't find a "respectful" way to go along with something that's 100% utter crap.
 


>I just think a little tolerance for
>others would go a long way in helping.

In helping to do what? To spread ignorance? To foster belief in things that simply aren't true?

[cathy]

Respecting an individual does not mean condoning their beliefs.  It is simply a mutual understanding that we are all free to believe in whatever we want.

Absolutely you have the right to disagree with anything.  Call a spade a spade.  If it is bullshit, call it bullshit.  But if a person believes in and finds comfort in that bullshit, that doesn't make them any less of a person.  It doesn't make them stupid, ignorant or worthy of disdain.

The example of religion - we sound like we are probably in agreement.  I simply cannot suspend belief in everything I have experienced and learned to accept the concepts and terms of religion.  I do not believe babies are born to virgins, I do not believe people come back from the dead, I do not believe water can be turned into wine, etc etc etc.  But I do know lots of people that do - some of these people are some of the smarted, most intelligient, most influential people in the world.  There is no way I would say they shouldn't be allowed to drive or vote because they believe in something so stupid as a particular religion!  

For ME, these things are not true.  For others, they may be.  Even if they AREN'T true, if they bring comfort or insight to someone, who am I to put them down for it?  Whether it is "cellular memory" or religion - I am happy if someone finds something that helps them without harming others.  In fact, I'm somewhat jealous in some ways.  I often think how comforting it must be to believe in religion, or to have some method you feel helps you in understanding yourself better.

Just a clarification - it was not a friend - it was a poster on another board at this site.  They posted about their experience and the fact that it had provided insight to her and helped her.

Again, I don't have all the answers.  I do know what I believe is true and what I believe is not.  But just as we all have to select what we believe in, we all have to elect our code on conduct.  I have elected to make an effort to be tolerant of others and their differences, to try to respect the person if not their beliefs, and to attempt to learn from things I don't understand.   By no means am I always successful at it though!!  

Maybe this clarifies my position a little better - I'm not sure.  But it seems like this is just one of those "agree to disagree" areas!  

[Brent]

>Absolutely you have the right to disagree with anything.  Call
>a spade a spade.  If it is bullshit, call it bullshit.  But if
>a person believes in and finds comfort in that bullshit, that
>doesn't make them any less of a person.

Well, actually I think it does. I think anyone who can't reason logically and who instead *chooses*  to believe in fantasy-laden psuedo-scientific bullcrap is NOT a real human being, and is not worthy of being taken seriously.



>It doesn't make them
>stupid, ignorant or worthy of disdain.

I think it does. If a person believes in something that is utterly ridiculous, what does that say about that person? Why should I respect someone that believes in the silliest crap to come down the pike in decades?


>
>The example of religion - we sound like we are probably in
>agreement.  I simply cannot suspend belief in everything I
>have experienced and learned to accept the concepts and terms
>of religion.  I do not believe babies are born to virgins, I
>do not believe people come back from the dead, I do not
>believe water can be turned into wine, etc etc etc.

Exactly.





>For ME, these things are not true.  For others, they may be.

It soesn't work that way. Something either is or isn't. There is no such thing as subjective "truth".


>I often think how
>comforting it must be to believe in religion, or to have some
>method you feel helps you in understanding yourself better.

I prefer reality. It may be uncomfortable, but I refuse to pretend in things I know aren't real.



>
>Just a clarification - it was not a friend - it was a poster
>on another board at this site.  They posted about their
>experience and the fact that it had provided insight to her
>and helped her.

She sounds like she needs a lot more help than she'll get from believing in "cellular memory". If anything, it will only DEEPEN her pathology and make it even more difficult for her to manage her existence in the real world. Allowing someone to buy into this kind of crap isn't doing them any favors, believe me.



>
>Again, I don't have all the answers.

I may not have all the answers, but that doesn't mean I don't have some of the answers.



>Maybe this clarifies my position a little better - I'm not
>sure.  But it seems like this is just one of those "agree to
>disagree" areas!  

Okay.

[cathy]

Brent -

Hope you don't mind, but I'm really rather fascinated here.  I'm not sure I've ever met anyone who believes what you do in such an extreme manner.  Had a couple of questions.

So do you believe every Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, etc  is not a real human being?  That you have no respect for them and they should not be taken seriously?

(Please do understand - I am not being a smart ass with this question.  I am truly curious and would like to make sure I understand your position)

What is your measurement of "truth"?  I mean, sure, I can agree there are things that we pretty much know with certainty, that can be scientifically proven.  But there seems to be many things that are not so certain, that cannot be necessarily "proven".  And then, at least for me, there are a lot of things that I truly believe we just do not know, that can't necessarily be "proven" to be true or false.

[Brent]

>So do you believe every Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, etc
>is not a real human being?  That you have no respect for them
>and they should not be taken seriously?

I wouldn't say that exactly, but I think anyone who truly believes in mystical forces and who engages in that sort of 'magical thinking' isn't fully rational. I have a dificult time respecting anyone who willingly believes in this stuff. Sorry, call me intolerant, but sometimes intolerance is called for. I'm intolerant of racism and bigotry, and by the same token I'm intolerant of willful ignorance.

Let me put it this way:

Would you want someone who holds these beliefs to be the person diagnosing your x-ray or putting rivets in the wing of an airplane you're going to fly in?




>What is your measurement of "truth"?  I mean, sure, I can
>agree there are things that we pretty much know with
>certainty, that can be scientifically proven.  

That's my definition, but it doesn't exclude the rest of the universe at large.



>But there seems
>to be many things that are not so certain, that cannot be
>necessarily "proven".  

Sure, and some of them will likely turn out to be real, be true. But that doesn't mean that ANY idea (no matter how whacky) should be respected and tolerated.


>And then, at least for me, there are a
>lot of things that I truly believe we just do not know, that
>can't necessarily be "proven" to be true or false.

Same here.  But "cellular memory" isn't one of them. An idea must have some reasonable basis for believing in it, otherwise it's wide open and anything goes, anything "could" be.

Elvis could be hiding in my fridge, but there's no reasonable basis to believe that he actually is.

According to your point of view, however, if that thought somehow helped me cope with the world, it should be respected. That's where I stop nodding my head.

I'm not telling anyone what to believe, but if they believe in things that conflict with my best guess at reality, then I'm not going to be able to take them seriously- they've shown their perceptions to be too far off from mine, and I have no reason to believe that their perceptions and beliefs are more accurate than mine.

Show me it's real and I'll be an instant convert, but until then I have to use my best judgement based on my perceptions.

[Davy]

The following is an actual question given on a University of Washington
chemistry mid-term. The answer by one student was so "profound" that the professor shared it with colleagues, via the Internet, which is, of
course, why we now have the pleasure of enjoying it as well.


Bonus Question: Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic
(absorbs heat)?

Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law
(gas cools when it expands and heats when it is compressed) or some
variant.

One student, however, wrote the following:

First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we
need to know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell and the rate at
which they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving.

As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different
religions that exist in the world today. Most of these religions state
that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since
there is more than one of these religions and since people do not belong
to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell.

With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand proportionately as souls are added.

This gives two possibilities:

1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls
enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until
all Hell breaks loose.

2. If Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in
Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.


So which is it?

If we accept the postulate given to me by Teresa during my Freshman year that, "it will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you", and take
into account the fact that I slept with her last night, then number 2 must
be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic and has already frozen over.

Of course, the corollary of this theory is that since Hell has
frozen over, it follows that it is not accepting any more souls and is
therefore, extinct...leaving only Heaven thereby proving the existence of
a divine being which explains why, last night,   Teresa kept shouting  "Oh my God."

THIS STUDENT RECEIVED THE ONLY "A

[4honor]

"...I do not believe babies are born to virgins, I do not believe people come back from the dead, I do not believe water can be turned into wine, etc etc etc..."

I SAW a man be raised from the dead (pronounced at  the scene by an MD dead for 30 mintues waiting for the coroner) in the name of Jesus Christ. That was 5 years ago.

I SAW a woman (known to me for many years) be completely healed in the name of Jesus Christ, from COPD (Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease.) She could not walk, could barely talk and had to be on oxygen every minute of every day. She had no air to sing before. Now she is a soloist in the choir - that was 4 years ago.

I believed before, but I have also SEEN with my own eyes. These weren't people I had never seen before and never saw after. These were people I saw EVERY Sunday over the course of several years.

I know this will not change your mind. I almost feel sorry that you are limted by your belief in ONLY yourself. There is truth other than what one thinks, feels, sees, touches, hears, tastes, smells or what can be logically derived.

Jesus Christ said, "I am the Way the TRUTH and the Life, no one comes to God except through me." Is it "intolerant" to tell someone that since the house has only one door and no windows, you'll have to use the door to get in? Guess I am intolerant then. Is it intolerant and disrespectful to say, "Hey, it's pouring out there, you should think about taking an umbrella" and then I point to the umbrella stand where there is enough for all? If you have an umbrella already, you go on your way, if you don't, you can take one or not, but you make an informed decision. If I don't say anything, when I know it is pouring and the Boss told me to make sure everyone knows there are free umbrellas for the taking, then that makes me both insubordinate, and uncaring of my fellow workers.

If I believe there is no bus, is that going to keep it from hitting me as it speeds toward me? It is the same with the promise of Heaven and hell. If you are going to believe there is no God, you better be right, cause none of us are getting out of this life alive.  ;)

I believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God and my Savior and King. I belive He was born of a virgin (devine in vivo fertilization, if you will - scientifically possible today BTW.) I believe that He is fully God and fully man.

I believe He lived a sinless life (possible because He is God) and died on a wooden cross as a blood sacrifice, the only bridge between God and man (God made the world, He gets to make the rules).  We ran away from God and He made a way for us to get back. What father would not do the same?

I believe He was buried and raised again three days later. I believe that when He finished what he came to do, He was caught up to Heaven once again. I believe that all these things were prophecied hundred of years before His birth.

I believe that I can accept His crucifixion as a substitute for my own blood, as a sacrifice,  and I will not have to suffer the ultimate penalty of my actions/sin upon my death. In accepting this, I am accepting adoption into the family of the living God and He becomes my Father.

I believe this is a free gift to anyone who wants it and is willing to believe. I believe this is the first of many wonderful gifts Father God gives His children. I believe that the very best thigns about my human father is only a dim shadow of all that my Heavenly Father is. I believe God gave us fathers to help us understand about his love for us.

I believe there is a hell and that there will be a "sorting" of our souls (the culmination of our mind, intellect and emotion) into those spending eternity in the lake of fire in utter agony and darkness (eternal dying),  and those spending eternity walking on streets of gold, living in a mansion, being in the presence of light and life (eternal life). God will make the judgement who is sorted where, and He doesn't need my input on that. He gave me a task, "Tell everyone you meet where the only door is."

So, there's the door.

[cathy]

-----------------------------------------------
I know this will not change your mind. I almost feel sorry that you are limted by your belief in ONLY yourself. There is truth other than what one thinks, feels, sees, touches, hears, tastes, smells or what can be logically derived.
----------------------------------------------

You are right - this absolutely does not change my mind.  And you really shouldn't make assumptions.  You have NO IDEA what I believe in and I find it rather amazing that you would make the claim that I believed ONLY in myself.

If I may quote from the book I assume is the basis of your belief:

"Judge not lest ye be judged."

If you can believe in those teachings, more power to you.  I can't and don't.  I do know I could debate this with you - and use your own bible against you and your arguments.  But I won't - it would be pointless.  

Be happy in your choices - - - I am happy in mine.

[4honor]

But I have made no judgment calls. I said that I have experienced miracles. That I believe in the sovreignty of Jesus Christ, and part of that belief is that He is the only way. I have not said anyone is past the point of redemption. How could I know your heart and soul?

And if you wish to quote Matthew 7:1, at least finish the sentence by going on to verse 2. It says:
"Judge not lest you be judged... according to the measure you use."

And John 7:24 says, "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgement."

So it is not saying don't judge at all, but to make sure of the criteria you use. It should be righteous and you should be willing to be measured by the same yard stick.