Hummm....

[cathy]

Exactly - how could you know my heart and soul?  Yet you presumed to state that I am limited by my belief in only myself.  To quote your post:

"I almost feel sorry that you are limted by your belief in ONLY yourself."

In my book - that is a judgement.  I do not feel the need, nor I am "willing to be measured" by your yard stick, you, or your god.  As my mother says, who is very much a believer in the same notions as you - Her God is more than capable of making his own judgements, he doesn't need you to help him.  I may not believe as she does, but I very much respect her in that respect.

I can throw out scripture to you as well - but I won't.  And really, it is obvious that I do not believe in these scriptures.  Quoting them to me serves no purpose, it does not strengthen your position.  Believe me, I have heard them before.

Again - you are happy in your choices.  I am happy in mine.  Let's say we leave it at that.  I won't try to change your mind, you don't try to change mine.

[Brent]

As George Bush said, "Jesus helps me trick people."

Frankly I have little respect for anyone who believes in any brand of mystical hocus-pocus. It's ALL crap, no matter what they think they've seen or what they choose to attribute it to. Really.....bring the dead back to life? Wouldn't the Army be interested in that? Why aren't they using it, if it really works?

4Honor:
"I SAW a man be raised from the dead.."

No, you didn't.  You  may have seen someone revived, but attributing it to your own personal brand of religion is ridiculous. And a bit pompous, I might add. Do Bhuddists and Pentacostalists and Mormons get to miraculously revive people, or does it only work with your personal brand of God©?


4Honor:
"I SAW a woman (known to me for many years) be completely healed in the name of Jesus Christ, from COPD (Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease.)"

So....you diagnosed this woman yourself with your medical training and you can show us the records of her "miraculous" recovery? I don't think so.


Look, believe whatever you like, but please don't post your Sermonette stuff here and tell people not to respond. That's a cowardly act. The fact is, this kind of stuff just doesn't happen. You may thinkyou know what you "saw", but if it was true, WHY DOESN'T EVERY HOSPITAL IN THE WORLD RELY ON GOD EXCLUSIVELY?

Answer: Because it's all a load of crap! You can't cure people by believing in an invisible super-being.

[gabond]

davy, thank you for that.
cathy, brent, thank you for one of the more rational "religious" arguments it's ever been my priveledge to witness.
4honor. good luck. in everything. I beleive you're going to need it.

btw, i'm 23, and am alive due only to a gross absence of physics in an incident 8 years ago where i was stabbed 6 times and beaten by a group of 100+ teens. i should be dead. there is no logical reason why a knife which can cut through my neck, ribs, elbow, etc, would push the carotid artery to the side as it made a vertical cut the ENTIRE length of my neck.
Thankfully, the knife DID push the carotid artery aside 2/3 the lenth of the cut. otherwise i'd have bled to death before the paramedics got there.
Am I one lucky SOB? Yes.
Did a "god" save me? don't know. insufficient data. doubt it.
any "god" that allows the slaughter of millions around the world in various ways but would take the time to bend the world he supposedly created just to save one punk who doesn't even think he's there is worthless and deserves to go to his own hell and leave us monkeys alone.

I've watched a man die. I've witnessed atrocities to reason and decency.
Nothing has ever convinced me that ANY Religion is anything but a crutch for people too weak to accept that WE are the ones in charge of our lives and our world.

Just my opinion. I guess (like all religious arguments) this one won't be settled until we all die.

[Brent]

>the lenth of the cut. otherwise i'd have bled to death before
>the paramedics got there.
>Am I one lucky SOB? Yes.
>Did a "god" save me? don't know. insufficient data. doubt it.

Yep.

I always find it AMAZING that "god" is credited for all of the good things that happen but none of the bad things. That's kinda stupid and willfully blind to reality if you ask me.

God lets little girls and boys be raped and murdered. If one of them happens to survive, everyone who believes in 'god' dances around like imbeciles and thanks 'god' for this miraculous thing. Why don't they blame 'god' for allowing it to happen in the first place? Answer: Because that's bad public relations for 'god'.  

Why did 'god' kill 100,000 people in the tsunami? What did they do to deserve that? Who knows, but my guess is that they weren't ALL 'sinners'. So all those people perish and no one blames 'god'....but let one person be found clinging to a tree alive, and all of a sudden it's god's will, a 'miraculous intervention'.  For some reason, 'god' never gets the blame for any of the bad things that happen, which seems a bit ridiculous to me.



>any "god" that allows the slaughter of millions around the
>world in various ways but would take the time to bend the
>world he supposedly created just to save one punk who doesn't
>even think he's there is worthless and deserves to go to his
>own hell and leave us monkeys alone.

Bingo. God seems awfully petty, don't ya think?



>Nothing has ever convinced me that ANY Religion is anything
>but a crutch for people too weak to accept that WE are the
>ones in charge of our lives and our world.

Religion has been responsible for more death and war and hatred than anything else in recorded history. The 9-11 tragedy was a direct result of religion, and so is everything that is going on in Iraq right now (and for the last 1000 years, too).

To me, belief in 'god' is a sign of an inability to reason and think logically. It's an excuse to hate those who don't believe in whatever you believe in. It's just plain bullcrap.

I mean, for crying out loud, it's 2005 and people still want to believe in their Invisible Friend In The Sky. It's about time to put that crap to bed and start taking respnsibility for our own actions.

[4honor]

Asking for no response was to avoid a debate.... one has started, 'nuff said? Real productive to date, huh?

I do not own the woman's medical records, but was allowed to see them, diagnosis on every page for the past 10 years COPD.

And as far as can anyone heal, or just my particular brand, I believe any bozo could heal in the name Jesus Christ if they believe. If you can't believe, obviously you can't "go there" yourself. If you can get past that unbelief thing you are welcome to take a shot at it.

And as far as hospitals relying exclusively on God, doctors tend to believe they ARE GOD, so since they would have to believe in something outside of themselves...it isn't going to happen any time soon.

Brent, I have known for years where you stand... we had this discussion once before. I respect your efforts on behalf of fathers and children. I have agreed to disagree many times, but I will not allow your (or Cathy's or anyone else's) disagreement with my views keep me from voicing my views.

And you can hollar about "crap" until you are blue in the face, but it will not stop me from praying for you and your situation... praying for peace in your life... and yes, praying for your unbelieving soul. You are one of many here I pray for.

Now, you can leave my opinion on the table and walk away, or we can continue this debate and distract others on the board from the reason we come here.  So, Good Day!

[Brent]

>Asking for no response was to avoid a debate.... one has
>started, 'nuff said?

I wasn't the one who objected to that, but I felt the same way. Posting a very religious, very controversial message like that and then telling people "not to respond" is a little unrealistic. Some would say it was a drive-by post, others might call it intolerant.



>And as far as can anyone heal, or just my particular brand, I
>believe any bozo could heal in the name Jesus Christ if they
>believe. If you can't believe, obviously you can't "go there"
>yourself.

Thanks; I prefer reality.



>And as far as hospitals relying exclusively on God, doctors
>tend to believe they ARE GOD, so since they would have to
>believe in something outside of themselves...it isn't going to
>happen any time soon.

This is a bogus answer and ain't gonna fly. Forget what you think doctors believe about themselves- that's open to debate and I know many doctors who would disagree with you. NONE of the doctors I know think of themselves as god. So, back to the question at hand:

If faith healing worked, every doctor in the world would be using it day and night. If it really worked, why aren't they using it? Why bother with convenbtional medicine at all if the power of faith healing is so great? I mean really- if prayer could cure disease, is there a doctor alive who wouldn't be using it, and using it all the time?



>but I will not allow your (or Cathy's or anyone else's)
>disagreement with my views keep me from voicing my views.

You can't have it both ways- if you get to voice your views, so do we. And telling people not to respond isn't allowing other people the same freedom to "voice their views" as you claim to have the right to do.  




>And you can hollar about "crap" until you are blue in the
>face, but it will not stop me from praying for you and your
>situation... praying for peace in your life... and yes,
>praying for your unbelieving soul. You are one of many here I
>pray for.

How you waste your time is entirely up to you.



>Now, you can leave my opinion on the table and walk away, or
>we can continue this debate and distract others on the board
>from the reason we come here.  

Like you, I feel like voicing my views. To remain silent would be doing a disservice to everyone here who doesn't share your views. SPARC isn't a faith-based organization, so when you write about your religious persuasion, expect other people to object.

[cathy]

Sorry, but if you didn't want a response, you shouldn't have posted such an obviously controversial post.  

So far as my disagreement preventing you from voicing your views - - no where have I said you shouldn't be allowed to express your belief.  No where have I questioned your right to believe as you wish.  I just ask for the same in return.  I'm not sure why you would think you should be able to come here and express your religious views - and then try to prevent ME the same right to express MY views by asking me not to reply.

Your closing - "continue this debate and distract others on the board" - is rather self-serving, wouldn't you say?  You obviously knew you were throwing out a post that was bound to start a debate - and now that it has, you want to cry "foul"??

Again - be happy with your choices.  I am happy with mine.

[olanna]

"I always find it AMAZING that "god" is credited for all of the good things that happen but none of the bad things. "

Hum...I see God getting credit for any and everything that happens, including the bad. If a child dies, he needed another angel. If a child is born with a handicap or health issue, God gave it to the parents to strengthen them...if we have a natural disaster, God was pissed. Hell, even some of the people I know blamed God being pissed for the numerous hurricanes that hit Florida. If someone dies, he/she was called to heaven.

I don't buy any of the above. It's all a load of crap..but I don't see God getting credit only for the good.

So really, God takes a bad rap, too.