Dinner Visit encounter

[johnk0121]

Dear Soc,

Fiance separated Aug, 2001.  Final divorce ruling verbally given on Oct 29, 2004.  She was granted sole legal and primary physical custody of their daughter.  Jurisdiction is Howard County, MD.  We are waiting on the court to sign the divorce decree.  PL custody was joint legal, and fiance primary physical.  The verbal ruling stated that part of the reason for the decision was the anger the fiance's x2b exhibits, and admitted to in court, as well as a total lack of communication from his side.

Last night was his dinner visit, which ends with him bringing her to basketball practice.  Since he has her before bball practice, fiance packs practice clothes in her school backpack.  Last week, she came to practice in the practice clothes, and did not bring the school clothes to practice.  This is at least the second set of school clothes he has ended up with.  So, yesterday, fiance told daughter that she wanted daughter to bring the school clothes to practice to bring them home.

Fiance and daughter went to x2b's truck after practice to get backpack.  The truck door gets closed and fiance asks daughter "Where are your clothes?",  Daughter says "In the truck."  Fiance reaches to open door, and x2b uses remote key entry to lock it.  She tells him, "I want her clothes."  He says "You don't need them, she's wearing clothes."  She says, "I want her school clothes."  He answers, "You don't need them."  She says louder, "I want her clothes!"

At this point, I had been chatting with fiance's father about 30 feet away.  When I hear the raised voices, I walk over to them, and state "Why can't you just give her the clothes?"  He tells me to go back to my truck.  She says again, "Give me the clothes."  He turns around and goes around the back of his truck to head to the driver's door.  I come around the front and stand in front of the driver's door.  As x2b heads toward me, fiance's father comes between us and stands, with his hands in his pocket.  X2b walks into Father, and makes him lurch against the truck.  As it becomes clear that Father and I are not going to let him in the truck he moves aside and walks away to the school entrance.

As he is walking away, fiance asks for my cell phone and calls 911.
Before police arrive, Father and Mother of Fiance take daughter home to get her to bed.

End result, police show up, and take information, but state it is a civil issue.  I ask what has to happen to claim assault and state that x2b pushed Father.  As Father was not there they just said he would have to file a complaint.  But also mention that x2b claimed Father pushed him.

Next week, fiance is bringing practice clothes to practice and daughter will change in bathroom and give school clothes to fiance.

1.  We understand that x2b may file assault, but if he does, would you suggest filing a counter-complaint at that time?  Or should Father file complaint now?

2.  Are there any other laws that Father and I could have broken?  Something like "barring legal entry to property"?  (Because we wouldn't let him in his truck.)  If so, how likely would he prevail?

3.  Anything else about this episode that we should be concerned about?

Thanks!
-JK

[DecentDad]

Hi,

I'm not Soc, and I'm not a lawyer.  But I've spent nearly four years in a high conflict parenting situation.

I want you to understand that I'm not calling you a bad person-- because I know nothing about you, your fiance, or fiance's father.  I'm responding solely to the situation you posted, okay?

I also want you to understand that if her ex is playing games with those clothes as some petty way to control the situation, that's not right.  Okay?

However, you, your fiance, and fiance's father all acted like huge HUGE idiots here.  Aside from clearly provoking and inciting potential violence, you did all this right in front of the kid.  Are you nuts?

Your fiance (who may not be an idiot in general) was an idiot to call 9-1-1 over this.  Can you appreciate that because a cop had to come out to this stupid scenario, someone may have been mugged or raped somewhere else without as quick a response?  Someone else calling into 9-1-1 whose child was hurt in an accident may have gotten a busy signal?

Stop and realize that fiance's hatred of her ex, along with dragging you and and fiance's father into that same hatred, is setting the stage for years of psychotherapy for this child.  Could drive her into bad relationships as she gets older, promiscuity, drugs, etc.  You should really think about this in an honest way.

You may want to sit down with your fiance and discuss how to handle future exchanges.  "Honey, your ex is a jerk, but we can't ever let daughter see such conflict again.  We'll walk away, and you can send him correspondence about it.  Or we'll go back to court to address the problems."

So... if I were you, I'd figure out a better way to deal with this ASAP.  This child deserves it.

And if I were your fiance's ex, I'd be going to court this morning, seeking a restraining order against you and fiance's father, outlining the intimidation, blocking entry to a vehicle, and perceived threat of violence.  And because you both agree with the underlying facts, he may get it.

"Causing father to lurch against truck"... so if someone sticks out a foot to trip another person, that other person is responsible for battering the leg?

Thank goodness your fiance's ex walked away.  This could have been much worse for all of you.

Learn the lesson from that volatile exchange and grow as a person.  Stay focused on the kid.  If fiance's ex plays games, don't play the same game.  You mostly need to let fiance deal with her ex, keep her calm in the presence of the child, and just stay out of it.

As an aside, you're getting a preview of what life will be like after marrying into this situation.  Think hard.  60% of second marriage with children fail.

DD

[johnk0121]

Dear DD...

OK... maybe its hard to give all context to a situation.  I tried, though.

The x2b in this situation... is very controlling.  That's a main factor that led to the divorce.  He is also very angry, as admitted to by him in court.   If anyone is anti-PAS, it is my fiance.  She gently suggests that her daughter give her x2b a hug at almost any time we are leaving an event, game, etc.  She answers the phone when he calls, and suggests that her daughter talk to him.   He, on the other hand, does anything he can to control my fiance and her daughter.  He makes every effort to leave events as fast as he can, he never answers the phone.   She informs him of things via email, to keep conflict at a minimum, but he insists on only communicating face-to-face, where he thinks he can control situations.

For over three years, she has held back.   She wanted to be sure that things stayed as sane as possible.  Holidays have been tough... he wouldn't ever discuss a schedule....  he would show up the last dinner visit or EOW dropoff and demand that he have her at thus and such a time.  Or, one Thanksgiving, that was to be his based on the every other holiday schedule, he calls at 9:30am and insists that Fiance come and get DD.

Also, by the time the divorce trial occured, he had two contempt charges against him.  One was for taking almost all the family-use personal property out of the house when Fiance got PL Use and Posession.  He finally returned most of it eight months later, on Valentine's Day, for us to discover on the front porch when we (including DD) came home from dinner.  THe other was for only paying around 1/3 of the mortgage obligation.

Control... that's what this is all about.

So...  the situation I describe happens.

Its a simple thing, right?  Why blow up about a set of clothes?  Well, why can't that logic apply to him?  Why couldn't he just hand over the clothes?  She's only with him Wednesdays and EOW.  What does he need so many clothes for? and if he needs some (since she is getting the CS) why couldn't he just ask?  Not incite frustration and anger?

About idiocy...  when and how is Fiance supposed to make it clear that she isn't going to always bend to his will?   She/we try hard to keep stupidity (mainly his) from blowing up in front of daughter.  However, in this case, he provoked the situation.  He was continuing to insist he wasn't going to give her the clothes.  About standing in front of the driver's door... were we supposed to just politely let him get in his truck and drive off?  We made NO threatening moves.  We stood in his way.  Father stood with his hands in his pocket and is over 60 years old.

Isn't the police around for protection?  With how the situation developed, she was afraid of what may happen.   It escalated to that point because of x2b, and his need to control, to only do what he wants.

DD is doing well...  she is very well adjusted, but clearly due to what the court verdict was.  She told the judge she loved both of her parents, but wanted the visitation schedule to stay as it was.  Without any prompting, she asked later, "Why couldn't he just give you the clothes??"

We try hard not to play the same games he does, and try to stay focused on DD.  She attends counseling, she does the sports she wants, homework is a tough job every day.  Up to this episode, I have given them a wide berth.  I go to events/ games/ practices, but let him have space to hug and talk, etc.  Most episodes have been out of DD's site/earshot.  But, any that haven't been, have been started or escalated by him.

So... maybe it wasn't handled perfectly, but it was a stupid situation he provoked in a controlling way.  Fiance reacted with some bottled up frustration, and Father and I supported her, as family should.  To be clear, we aren't looking for the assault, etc.  We would rather just move on.  A part of that moving on is starting to stand up to his unreasonable demands.  How else can that be accomplished?

-JK

[socrateaser]

>1.  We understand that x2b may file assault, but if he does,
>would you suggest filing a counter-complaint at that time?  Or
>should Father file complaint now?

Criminal assault is the intent, coupled with the present ability, to commit a violent physical attack on another. Your facts state that the x2b may claim that his father-in-law pushed him. This doesn't really rise to the level of a criminal assault. Police will not arrest on this thin a complaint. Same goes in reverse. So, forget about it.

For a civil assault charge, plaintif must show that the defendant intentionally caused an apprehension of imminent physical injury in plaintiff. A mere push doesn't sound like a civil assault, either.

Civil battery is the intentional or reckless harmful or offensive touching of another without consent or privilege. A mere push could be a civil battery, however, it must be proven, and it's doubtful that a court would find that one person's word, without evidence of some injury would be sufficient for a civil battery verdict.

For a criminal battery charge, the touching must be violent or highly offensive to an ordinary person (i.e., fondling sex organs, etc.). If no one grabed the other's nuts, then no criminal battery on your facts.

>
>2.  Are there any other laws that Father and I could have
>broken?  Something like "barring legal entry to property"?
>(Because we wouldn't let him in his truck.)  If so, how likely
>would he prevail?

Harrassment: elements differ from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, so I can't really comment without reading MD law, and I don't have time at the moment. But, even here, I doubt that there's a criminal charge available under the facts as presented.

Interference with chattel: unreasonable interference with the personal property of another. this is probably the most likely civil case -- there is no criminal action available under this theory. If you prevented x2b from reaching his vehicle for a substantial period of time, he could sue you for the interference and win, and I think that if he could prove it, a small claims judge just might give him a couple hundred bucks to discourage your repeating the performance.

But, he's not gonna figure that one out -- it's not the kind of lawsuit that jumps to the average person's mind.

>
>3.  Anything else about this episode that we should be
>concerned about?

Yeah, more people are killed as a result of domestic relations incidents than for any other reason. I wouldn't antagonize a jilted lover -- you're dealing with the primal forces of nature and you could end up washing up on the shore of Chesapeake Bay.

[johnk0121]

>
>Also, by the time the divorce trial occured, he had two
>contempt charges against him.  One was for taking almost all
>the family-use personal property out of the house when Fiance
>got PL Use and Posession.  He finally returned most of it
>eight months later, on Valentine's Day, for us to discover on
>the front porch when we (including DD) came home from dinner.
>THe other was for only paying around 1/3 of the mortgage
>obligation.
>

Just wanting to clarify this a bit...  x2b's salary is 10% more than Fiance.  Fiance paid half of the mortgage obligation for the 22 months prior to the PL hearing.  Also, x2b purchased at least one farm tractor during this time.  So, his lack of paying is not due to him being unable to, though that is what he claims.

-JK

[MixedBag]

Decent Dad gave you good advice.

Yep, the Dad should have sent the clothes back.  Lesson learned, he's a butthole.

Be the bigger person.....and you'll get further, period.

[johnk0121]

Dear Soc,

Fiance separated Aug, 2001.  Final divorce ruling verbally given on Oct 29, 2004.  She was granted sole legal and primary physical custody of their daughter.  Jurisdiction is Howard County, MD.  We are waiting on the court to sign the divorce decree.  PL custody was joint legal, and fiance primary physical.  The verbal ruling stated that part of the reason for the decision was the anger the fiance's x2b exhibits, and admitted to in court, as well as a total lack of communication from his side.

Last night was his dinner visit, which ends with him bringing her to basketball practice.  Since he has her before bball practice, fiance packs practice clothes in her school backpack.  Last week, she came to practice in the practice clothes, and did not bring the school clothes to practice.  This is at least the second set of school clothes he has ended up with.  So, yesterday, fiance told daughter that she wanted daughter to bring the school clothes to practice to bring them home.

Fiance and daughter went to x2b's truck after practice to get backpack.  The truck door gets closed and fiance asks daughter "Where are your clothes?",  Daughter says "In the truck."  Fiance reaches to open door, and x2b uses remote key entry to lock it.  She tells him, "I want her clothes."  He says "You don't need them, she's wearing clothes."  She says, "I want her school clothes."  He answers, "You don't need them."  She says louder, "I want her clothes!"

At this point, I had been chatting with fiance's father about 30 feet away.  When I hear the raised voices, I walk over to them, and state "Why can't you just give her the clothes?"  He tells me to go back to my truck.  She says again, "Give me the clothes."  He turns around and goes around the back of his truck to head to the driver's door.  I come around the front and stand in front of the driver's door.  As x2b heads toward me, fiance's father comes between us and stands, with his hands in his pocket.  X2b walks into Father, and makes him lurch against the truck.  As it becomes clear that Father and I are not going to let him in the truck he moves aside and walks away to the school entrance.

As he is walking away, fiance asks for my cell phone and calls 911.
Before police arrive, Father and Mother of Fiance take daughter home to get her to bed.

End result, police show up, and take information, but state it is a civil issue.  I ask what has to happen to claim assault and state that x2b pushed Father.  As Father was not there they just said he would have to file a complaint.  But also mention that x2b claimed Father pushed him.

Next week, fiance is bringing practice clothes to practice and daughter will change in bathroom and give school clothes to fiance.

1.  We understand that x2b may file assault, but if he does, would you suggest filing a counter-complaint at that time?  Or should Father file complaint now?

2.  Are there any other laws that Father and I could have broken?  Something like "barring legal entry to property"?  (Because we wouldn't let him in his truck.)  If so, how likely would he prevail?

3.  Anything else about this episode that we should be concerned about?

Thanks!
-JK

[DecentDad]

Hi,

I'm not Soc, and I'm not a lawyer.  But I've spent nearly four years in a high conflict parenting situation.

I want you to understand that I'm not calling you a bad person-- because I know nothing about you, your fiance, or fiance's father.  I'm responding solely to the situation you posted, okay?

I also want you to understand that if her ex is playing games with those clothes as some petty way to control the situation, that's not right.  Okay?

However, you, your fiance, and fiance's father all acted like huge HUGE idiots here.  Aside from clearly provoking and inciting potential violence, you did all this right in front of the kid.  Are you nuts?

Your fiance (who may not be an idiot in general) was an idiot to call 9-1-1 over this.  Can you appreciate that because a cop had to come out to this stupid scenario, someone may have been mugged or raped somewhere else without as quick a response?  Someone else calling into 9-1-1 whose child was hurt in an accident may have gotten a busy signal?

Stop and realize that fiance's hatred of her ex, along with dragging you and and fiance's father into that same hatred, is setting the stage for years of psychotherapy for this child.  Could drive her into bad relationships as she gets older, promiscuity, drugs, etc.  You should really think about this in an honest way.

You may want to sit down with your fiance and discuss how to handle future exchanges.  "Honey, your ex is a jerk, but we can't ever let daughter see such conflict again.  We'll walk away, and you can send him correspondence about it.  Or we'll go back to court to address the problems."

So... if I were you, I'd figure out a better way to deal with this ASAP.  This child deserves it.

And if I were your fiance's ex, I'd be going to court this morning, seeking a restraining order against you and fiance's father, outlining the intimidation, blocking entry to a vehicle, and perceived threat of violence.  And because you both agree with the underlying facts, he may get it.

"Causing father to lurch against truck"... so if someone sticks out a foot to trip another person, that other person is responsible for battering the leg?

Thank goodness your fiance's ex walked away.  This could have been much worse for all of you.

Learn the lesson from that volatile exchange and grow as a person.  Stay focused on the kid.  If fiance's ex plays games, don't play the same game.  You mostly need to let fiance deal with her ex, keep her calm in the presence of the child, and just stay out of it.

As an aside, you're getting a preview of what life will be like after marrying into this situation.  Think hard.  60% of second marriage with children fail.

DD

[johnk0121]

Dear DD...

OK... maybe its hard to give all context to a situation.  I tried, though.

The x2b in this situation... is very controlling.  That's a main factor that led to the divorce.  He is also very angry, as admitted to by him in court.   If anyone is anti-PAS, it is my fiance.  She gently suggests that her daughter give her x2b a hug at almost any time we are leaving an event, game, etc.  She answers the phone when he calls, and suggests that her daughter talk to him.   He, on the other hand, does anything he can to control my fiance and her daughter.  He makes every effort to leave events as fast as he can, he never answers the phone.   She informs him of things via email, to keep conflict at a minimum, but he insists on only communicating face-to-face, where he thinks he can control situations.

For over three years, she has held back.   She wanted to be sure that things stayed as sane as possible.  Holidays have been tough... he wouldn't ever discuss a schedule....  he would show up the last dinner visit or EOW dropoff and demand that he have her at thus and such a time.  Or, one Thanksgiving, that was to be his based on the every other holiday schedule, he calls at 9:30am and insists that Fiance come and get DD.

Also, by the time the divorce trial occured, he had two contempt charges against him.  One was for taking almost all the family-use personal property out of the house when Fiance got PL Use and Posession.  He finally returned most of it eight months later, on Valentine's Day, for us to discover on the front porch when we (including DD) came home from dinner.  THe other was for only paying around 1/3 of the mortgage obligation.

Control... that's what this is all about.

So...  the situation I describe happens.

Its a simple thing, right?  Why blow up about a set of clothes?  Well, why can't that logic apply to him?  Why couldn't he just hand over the clothes?  She's only with him Wednesdays and EOW.  What does he need so many clothes for? and if he needs some (since she is getting the CS) why couldn't he just ask?  Not incite frustration and anger?

About idiocy...  when and how is Fiance supposed to make it clear that she isn't going to always bend to his will?   She/we try hard to keep stupidity (mainly his) from blowing up in front of daughter.  However, in this case, he provoked the situation.  He was continuing to insist he wasn't going to give her the clothes.  About standing in front of the driver's door... were we supposed to just politely let him get in his truck and drive off?  We made NO threatening moves.  We stood in his way.  Father stood with his hands in his pocket and is over 60 years old.

Isn't the police around for protection?  With how the situation developed, she was afraid of what may happen.   It escalated to that point because of x2b, and his need to control, to only do what he wants.

DD is doing well...  she is very well adjusted, but clearly due to what the court verdict was.  She told the judge she loved both of her parents, but wanted the visitation schedule to stay as it was.  Without any prompting, she asked later, "Why couldn't he just give you the clothes??"

We try hard not to play the same games he does, and try to stay focused on DD.  She attends counseling, she does the sports she wants, homework is a tough job every day.  Up to this episode, I have given them a wide berth.  I go to events/ games/ practices, but let him have space to hug and talk, etc.  Most episodes have been out of DD's site/earshot.  But, any that haven't been, have been started or escalated by him.

So... maybe it wasn't handled perfectly, but it was a stupid situation he provoked in a controlling way.  Fiance reacted with some bottled up frustration, and Father and I supported her, as family should.  To be clear, we aren't looking for the assault, etc.  We would rather just move on.  A part of that moving on is starting to stand up to his unreasonable demands.  How else can that be accomplished?

-JK

[socrateaser]

>1.  We understand that x2b may file assault, but if he does,
>would you suggest filing a counter-complaint at that time?  Or
>should Father file complaint now?

Criminal assault is the intent, coupled with the present ability, to commit a violent physical attack on another. Your facts state that the x2b may claim that his father-in-law pushed him. This doesn't really rise to the level of a criminal assault. Police will not arrest on this thin a complaint. Same goes in reverse. So, forget about it.

For a civil assault charge, plaintif must show that the defendant intentionally caused an apprehension of imminent physical injury in plaintiff. A mere push doesn't sound like a civil assault, either.

Civil battery is the intentional or reckless harmful or offensive touching of another without consent or privilege. A mere push could be a civil battery, however, it must be proven, and it's doubtful that a court would find that one person's word, without evidence of some injury would be sufficient for a civil battery verdict.

For a criminal battery charge, the touching must be violent or highly offensive to an ordinary person (i.e., fondling sex organs, etc.). If no one grabed the other's nuts, then no criminal battery on your facts.

>
>2.  Are there any other laws that Father and I could have
>broken?  Something like "barring legal entry to property"?
>(Because we wouldn't let him in his truck.)  If so, how likely
>would he prevail?

Harrassment: elements differ from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, so I can't really comment without reading MD law, and I don't have time at the moment. But, even here, I doubt that there's a criminal charge available under the facts as presented.

Interference with chattel: unreasonable interference with the personal property of another. this is probably the most likely civil case -- there is no criminal action available under this theory. If you prevented x2b from reaching his vehicle for a substantial period of time, he could sue you for the interference and win, and I think that if he could prove it, a small claims judge just might give him a couple hundred bucks to discourage your repeating the performance.

But, he's not gonna figure that one out -- it's not the kind of lawsuit that jumps to the average person's mind.

>
>3.  Anything else about this episode that we should be
>concerned about?

Yeah, more people are killed as a result of domestic relations incidents than for any other reason. I wouldn't antagonize a jilted lover -- you're dealing with the primal forces of nature and you could end up washing up on the shore of Chesapeake Bay.